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Birmingham Steam Buses 1824-1910.

Thylacine said:
Yes I can, but only while sleeping. (I bet you didn't know that Thylacines had thumbs! ;)). My younger sister Jennifer Thylacine can touch her elbows together behind her back (without straining): I've never met anyone else who can do that!

"Thumb Fu": beautiful! The lesson is: on the BSB thread, click every link, no matter how innocent-looking, you never know what you may find! :cool:
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The dexterity of you and your family and the vision it conjures refused to fade and has stayed with me through breakfast. I now have indigestion but a thought. I mentioned previously that I have been tracing the MIs of the Devenish-Phibbs on another thread - I wonder if your lineage may include a product of the marriage of Dutch & "Shiny" Wendy?

I have Rehab this weekend in the pastoral landscape of the Trent Valley so wishing the thread well and adieu
 
[You're so kind! Enjoy your Trent Valley weekend, mate. ;)]

Here is another old motor book, courtesy of archive.org:

Gardner D Hiscox. Horseless Vehicles, Automobiles, Motor Cycles. New York: Norman W Henley & Co, 1900.

It is quite well written and contains some fine illustrations. Chapter 14 looks promising: "How to Build an Electric Cab, With Detailed Drawings". Now where's me hammer? ... :headhit:
 
One more thing...

The pleasure was all mine. & thanks

Another great book find. Love the Anorakian Amoskeag and the Steam Dos-A-Dos pics
 
Mike, thanks for that (I certainly haven't seen it before). That Wolverhampton site is excellent (for transport and other subjects).
 
Thylacine said:
[Bristling] Are you suggesting I'm a Wankel? :shock:
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What goes around, comes around.
(Random musical interlude)

Currently checking Barton family history - Kate Barton (b.1892), Ruth Barton (also b. 1892) and Edith Barton (b.1893) are some of the many (could be 10!) children of Thomas Henry Barton (1864-1946) , the company's founder, and his wife Mary Kate Barton, nee Elson (1868-1920). More anon.
 
Thanks for Squeeze's "Cool For Cats", Lloyd! :43: Very good, but can it really be over 30 years old? :shock:

And thanks for looking into the Barton family, which has long been an interest of mine. With such a large family, THB had a ready-made staff for his bus company! And the tenuous 1907 Clarkson steam bus connection gives us a good excuse to develop the subject on this thread! ;)
 
From Hiscox's book (see post #704) comes this delicious picture of the "Amoskeag Automobile Fire Engine", as built by Manchester Locomotive Works (Manchester, New Hampshire, US). Said to be the "largest in the world" (1900), it weighed 8.5 tons, was capable of 12 mph, and had a prodigious water pumping capacity. I imagine that many a fire would be simply frightened to death! ;)
 
If that is the Barton bus, and founder Tom Barton at the controls, the child literally 'bringing up the rear' could be Tom's last child, son Carl (b.1901).
The houses visible share some features with the few surviving originals in the immediate area of the Barton premises at Chilwell, so all leaning towards verifying the picture.
The bus body, however, has come from a shorter vehicle - the former driver's position, and a new rear-facing seat, are now passenger accommodation, and the top deck seating area is extended forward and supported by a couple of strong-looking front pillars. I'm thinking about where I've seen that style of body before, and come up with LNWR - a railway 'road motor'. More searching!!
 
Thylacine said:
From Hiscox's book (see post #704) comes this delicious picture of the "Amoskeag Automobile Fire Engine", as built by Manchester Locomotive Works (Manchester, New Hampshire, US). Said to be the "largest in the world" (1900), it weighed 8.5 tons, was capable of 12 mph, and had a prodigious water pumping capacity. I imagine that many a fire would be simply frightened to death! ;)
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With every cause to be frightened, not only for the fearsome appearace of this engine, but because that prodigious pump delivered 1450 gallons per minute - a veritable water cannon or what? :confused: Not bad for a firm famous for it's horsedrawn fire engines that built only 22 of these heavyweights.
 
Amazing what you can find, isn't it?
Now at the 'Cole Land Transportation Museum', 405 Perry Road Bangor, ME 04401

"Manufactured for the International Power Co. by the Manchester (New Hampshire) Locomotive Works using an Amoskeag steam engine, it was purchased by the Portland, Maine Fire Department in 1907 and assigned the name Engine No. 4. It is a Model X-1 Steamer, which translates to "extra 1st-size." It was the largest of those owned by Portland capable of pumping 1100 gallons/minute."
 
Lloyd said:
If that is the Barton bus, and founder Tom Barton at the controls, the child literally 'bringing up the rear' could be Tom's last child, son Carl (b.1901).
The houses visible share some features with the few surviving originals in the immediate area of the Barton premises at Chilwell, so all leaning towards verifying the picture.
The bus body, however, has come from a shorter vehicle - the former driver's position, and a new rear-facing seat, are now passenger accommodation, and the top deck seating area is extended forward and supported by a couple of strong-looking front pillars. I'm thinking about where I've seen that style of body before, and come up with LNWR - a railway 'road motor'. More searching!!
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Lloyd as the photo appears in his book 'Buses, Trolleys and Trams' with the caption attributing the bus to Bartons and accepting C.S. Dunbar as much respected in bus publications, hopefully his information is researched and correct. However given the misinforming photo captions in some recent books about BCT (not by C.S.Dunbar I hasten to add) confirmation elsewhere might be useful.
 
Mention of the all American Manchester Locomotive Works Inc. links me conveniently to a vehicle close to Aiden's heart and a treat for when he rejoins us from rehab - the articulated steam wagon. Pictured is a prototype 5 tonner built in 1903 as the 'Brightmore' articulated steam tractor, by T. Coulthard & Co. Ltd., of Preston, Lancs. to the design of a Doctor A.W. Brightmore (another reincarnation of the Doctor???) On only two wheels, the boiler ahead of the engine provided balance to the trailer mounted on a ball and socket joint. This arrangement provided more load space as well as being more manoeuvrable. Steering was done by braking on one or other of the tractor half shafts. Note the low driving position with tramcar style dash and single headlight. Only one prototype is recorded. The Brightmore then went in to production in 1905 but was manufactured now by Turner, Atherton & Co.Ltd. of Manchester who renamed it the 'MANCHESTER'. It must have been a work of art driving it!
 
Good morning, Penfold and Motorman! Thanks for keeping up the good work while I was asleep.

[A rare "sleep in" this (Sunday) morning: the older I get the less (and more fitfully) I sleep. ;)]

By October 1958 Carl Barton was Traffic Manager and one of four Directors of Barton Transport Ltd. The other three were his older brothers Thomas Andrew (Managing Director), Alfred (Depot Manager) and Murray (Works Manager). Below is the venerable motor bus pioneer Thomas Henry "Old Man" Barton seen with the car he adapted to run on gas in World War 2, outside Barton's Head Office, High Road, Chilwell, Nottinghamshire.

[Can anyone find an uncropped version of this picture?]
 
The 'Old Man' Tom Barton again, with the first Barton home made (as opposed to modified or rebuilt) chassis in the depot yard.
 
Hancock's "Erin" Goes to Birmingham (Friday 28 August 1835).

[Neither the "Heaton" nor the "Church" ever actually travelled the full distance on the intended route between Birmingham and London. The Heaton Brothers and The Doctor must have been chagrined to see Walter Hancock's "Erin" (formerly known as "Era") steaming into Birmingham in late August or early September 1835, having set out from London on 28 August. From Walter Hancock's Narrative of Twelve Years' Experiments (London: John Weale, 1838). Pages 72-74. Somewhat edited.]

Shortly afterwards the "Erin" ran to Birmingham, at the desire of some capitalists who contemplated the formation of a company. The Coventry Mercury gave the following account of the journey: —
Journey From London to Birmingham.

The London and Birmingham Steam-Coach Company on Friday 28 August started one of Mr Walter Hancock's steam-carriages, in order to ascertain the power required for running steam-carriages (for carrying passengers) on the turnpike-road between the above-mentioned places; and also for the purpose of building carriages for the aforesaid line of road. The trips were made to the following towns, where the Commissioners of the several Trusts were assembled to view its performance; namely, Redbourn, Brickhill, Dunstable, Daventry, Coventry, and Birmingham. These experiments pointed out that an engine of greater power was required between London and Dunstable than would be necessary between Dunstable and Daventry, arising from the nature of the soil, and the materials of which the roads were composed; showing that a level road of inferior materials is more injurious to draught than a hilly road formed of good stone and properly constructed. The greatest obstacles the carriage met with were — Ridge Hill and River Hill, between London and Dunstable — Hockliff Hill, Denbigh Hall Hill, and Weedon Hill, between Dunstable and Daventry — and on the third station, between Daventry and Birmingham, the ascent at Ryton Toll Gate, and the entrance to the town of Birmingham.

The engine with which these experiments were made was built for short runs and a level road; and having performed the distance between London and Birmingham at the rate of ten miles an hour, it clearly demonstrates that engines of the same weight and possessing double power (of which one or two are now built) will maintain a speed of from fourteen to fifteen miles an hour throughout the journey. These carriages are intended to carry about twenty-five passengers each; the fares inside not to exceed £1, and outside ten shillings. It is expected the arrangements will be completed and the carriages ready to start by the beginning of March 1836. The manner in which the carriages were received by the numerous crowds of people on the road was truly gratifying. We hear it is the intention of the Company to employ the present coachmen and guards as directors of the steam-carriages.​
[Hancock has no more to say about the London and Birmingham Steam-Coach Company, which suggests that there was little further progress. Alec Jenson (Birmingham Transport 1978) has this to say on the subject:
Later one of Hancock's steam omnibuses, renamed the "Erin", ran to Birmingham at a speed of ten mph carrying eight inside and six outside passengers in addition to the engineer, fireman and steersman.​
and in a later seemingly unconnected passage:
It is on record that a third company known as the "London, Birmingham and Liverpool" was proposed with a capital of £300,000 but according to a report the company managed to bring one steam carriage from London on 28 August 1835, but nothing more is heard of the venture.​
It would be useful to find a contemporary Birmingham press report of this journey. HELP PLEASE! :)]
 
English geography is not my strongest subject, but I suspect that this was the route of the "Erin" in 1835: London - Redbourn - Dunstable - Little Brickhill - Daventry - Coventry - Birmingham. The difficulty is "Brickhill". There is a Brickhill near Bedford, but it seems too far off the track. Great Brickhill in Buckinghamshire seems a better fit, but it is between Dunstable and Daventry, which alters the sequence given in the Coventry Mercury report. I'm open to suggestions.
 
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I suspect that what the Coventry Mercury calls the "London and Birmingham Steam-Coach Company", and Jenson the "London, Birmingham and Liverpool (Company)" is none other than the "London, Holyhead and Liverpool Steam Coach and Road Company" (or perhaps a later incarnation thereof). This company was discussed a long time ago (posts #195, #197, #212 and #227). The London Gazette doesn't appear to have heard of any companies of these names. More information is welcome.
 
That is a fascinating account of the London - Birmingham journey of "Erin", Thylacine, more so to me because I (and motorman-mike) used to drive the Midland Red Birmingham-London 'G' service along more or less the same route in the 1970s. It became National Express' 512 service until the provisions of the drivers hours regulations and the fact that few wanted to travel those sort of distances on non-motorway routes (it was 5 1/4 hours each way!) brought its (and its companion the 515, formerly 'J' service [Birmingham - Stratford - Banbury - Aylesbury - High Wycombe - London]) demise.
The BMMO version did add Rugby and Luton to the otherwise straight route, which follows the Roman Watling Street (the A5) from London (via Hyde Park, Maida Vale, Kilburn, Dollis Hill, Edgware, Elstree, Radlett and St Albans etc.) to Weedon, then the A45 to Coventry and Birmingham. Strangely unmentioned are St Albans and Towcester on the route taken, I can only assume that the populations there were either hostile or indifferent to the proposed new form of transport. The steep hill at "the entrance to Birmingham" must refer to the climb of Digbeth to St Martins church and the Bull Ring, Birmingham would not have extended far past there in those days.
One hopes that by the bicentenary of that run in 2035 a replica 'Era' / 'Erin' will have been built and re enact the journey, although if any of us are still around to see it I doubt we will be able to take part - unless the 'New Era' is wheelchair-compliant!
 
2035 bicentenary "Era / Erin" London - Birmingham run: what a wonderful idea! We'll be aboard, Lloyd, even if they have to hoist us up! :D

Hancock is uncharacteristically reticent about that journey, relying on the newspaper report only. Presumably he didn't make the journey himself, and perhaps the fledgling company never paid him for the hire of the "Era / Erin". He had some bad experiences with a number of "capitalists". ;)
 
Even had Erin been successful in starting a regular service this would not have survived the opening of Robert Stephenson's London and Birmingham Railway completed in 1938
 
You're probably right, David. And the punitive tolls imposed on steam road carriages by the Turnpike Trusts wouldn't have helped either. The failure of what we've called the "first generation steam buses" was due to many causes: lack of power and mechanical unreliability of the vehicles; poor quality roads and punitive tolls; lack of local and national government support; competition from the railways. And probably others relating to economics, fuel availability and so on. I don't think any single cause was responsible, but the combination of all of them was fatal.

Incidentally, the Coventry Mercury report states that the company was planning to charge one pound "inside" and ten shillings "outside" for the London - Birmingham journey. Does anyone know what the fares were on the London - Birmingham railway when it opened?
 
Early Smethwick Registration.

This 1910 Thornycroft charabanc appears to be steam powered (am I right?). And look at the registration! ;)

[From "Old Truck Pictures", which is full of surprises, and has yielded many gorgeous illustrations for this thread! I'm working on the assumption "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission".]
 
The recent musical interludes made me think that if "So rise the Steam" is the thread's acknowledged anthem (to be upstanding when played at the closing of the light), then what would be a fitting ditty for general use and for encores?

May I humbly suggest "Strangely Strange" by Dr Strangely Strange as the lyrics are oddly apposite - other suggestions welcome
 
Re: Hancock's "Erin" Goes to Birmingham (Friday 28 August 1835).

Thylacine said:
[Neither the "Heaton" nor the "Church" ever actually travelled the full distance on the intended route between Birmingham and London. The Heaton Brothers and The Doctor must have been chagrined to see Walter Hancock's "Erin" (formerly known as "Era") steaming into Birmingham in late August or early September 1835, having set out from London on 28 August....
It would be useful to find a contemporary Birmingham press report of this journey. HELP PLEASE! :)]
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There you go - Birmingham Daily Post as usual is silent but Berrow's comes up Trumps if only a slight mention. The lofty Times prints an article by Ogle that is generally positive about Hancock & Gurney (and his own, natch), mentions some NEW names to be followed up, but suggests not to use Sea Water in your boiler - a lesson for us all there I think
 
Aidan said:
The recent musical interludes made me think that if "So rise the Steam" is the thread's acknowledged anthem (to be upstanding when played at the closing of the light), then what would be a fitting ditty for general use and for encores?

May I humbly suggest "Strangely Strange" by Dr Strangely Strange as the lyrics are oddly apposite - other suggestions welcome
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Hmm, as the name suggests, that's strangely - - - strange. Makes me think of hippies living in one of these.

No, in my view there isn't much the pilgrims across the pond do very well, but in deference to our Dr Church I would like to travel on one of these, with its own suitable musical accompaniment, just visible on the roof of the cabin at the end. Here's a close up of the instument.
 
Although they give every appearance of being Californian Hippies, Dr. Strangely Strange were an experimental Irish folk group, formed in Dublin in 1967 by Tim Booth (vocals and guitar) (born Timothy Booth, 6 September 1943, County Kildare, Ireland) and Ivan Pawle bass (born 17 August 1943, England) and keyboards). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangely_Strange

Are you planning another Thread avatar scenario with us all playing shady poker-playing cads with amusing names? But who will play our femme fatale, the Riverboat Queen?

You've already answered the London Road/Watling St question. I live within occasional earshot of what is the current A5, between Little Brickhill (although part of the Brickhills, Great Brickhill is some distance away and not on Watling St) and Lactodurum as it happens. Stony Stratford (an infamous staging post for carriages steam or otherwise that has been covered on the thread previously) is also on the route and that's no Cock & Bull story. Although the original route has been bypassed and dual carriagewayed in most places, the road through all these places is still the original route and quite atmospheric https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&...=E4vpP12pXfpy39enrfbigA&cbp=12,290.9,,0,-1.61 and https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=52...=5IzgDM-1-pPpwfMAR3wZPQ&cbp=12,158.04,,0,4.94 I do like the idea of an anniversary special run.
 
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