Thylacine
master brummie
Good morning all!
Thanks, Molesworth, for Amy Winehouse's "Rehab" (which I'd never heard before
). If Amy's not going to be there, I'm not going to rehab either. (I'm going to Amy's wine house. :stare
-
Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.
We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team
Birmingham Steam Buses 1824-1910.
Good morning all!
Thanks, Molesworth, for Amy Winehouse's "Rehab" (which I'd never heard before
). If Amy's not going to be there, I'm not going to rehab either. (I'm going to Amy's wine house. :stare
Thylacine
master brummie
Molesworth, I'm not sure if "Strangely Strange but Oddly Normal" will catch on with BSB steamgoons. A nice little ditty, though, and an embarrassing reminder of "the way we were" (some of us, anyway) forty years ago. (Our grandchildren will never believe it!).
Actually the Thylacine was a "faux hippie": I got to California after the flowers had faded, and reached Woodstock just in time to clean up the rubbish.
I like these musical interludes! This thread has everything.
Thylacine
master brummie
I thought that ex-Midland Red 1963 Leyland Leopard looked a bit plain for a hippie travellers home. A little more research revealed that 5170HA was owned (after Midland Red) by building contractors Tilcon (Whaley Bridge), and used as "mobile living quarters and office". Hard-working hippies perhaps!
Thylacine
master brummie
Lloyd, we're going to have to install a steam calliope on our faux "Heaton" stretch charabanc! We might have to hire Jon Tschiggfrie to give us lessons, so that we can career around the Midlands, joyfully flouting bye-law number four.
Thylacine
master brummie
Thylacine
master brummie
Molesworth, thanks for your on-the-spot knowledge. I've updated my "Erin" London - Birmingham route (post #721) accordingly. Little Brickhill straightens out the (Roman) route nicely!
Thylacine
master brummie
OK, my turn for a musical interlude. I was looking for the Beatles with a public transport theme, and naturally thought of "Ticket to Ride". But the "go go gurls" on this version of "Day Tripper" made all the difference. 
Thylacine
master brummie
[Thanks to Molesworth, we have this contemporary report from the trusty Berrow's Worcester Journal (17 September 1835) on the "Erin" coming to Birmingham in 1835 (sandwiched between other important and interesting items). This suggests that the arrival of the "Erin" in Brum on "Friday morning last" was as late as 11 September 1835. Perhaps it was delayed by fresh-laid gravel at Towcester! ]
The Earl of Darlington and Mr Tidsall, on the 12th ult, bagged 48 brace of grouse on the Invercauld moors, Aberdeenshire.
Mr Hancock's steam carriage from London reached Birmingham on Friday morning last, having performed its journey, it is stated, without accident or impediment, at a rate exceeding ten miles an hour.
Holborn Hill. — The project of a viaduct from Fetter-lane to the top of Snow-hill is revived. The annual traffic along this line is computed to be upwards of 20,000,000 of pedestrians, 87,640 equestrians, 372,470 carts and waggons, 78,876 stages, 157,752 hackney coaches, 82,258 carriages, 135,842 omnibuses, 460,110 chaises and taxed carts, and 354,942 cabriolets.
[The traffic statistics quoted in the last report are amazingly precise!]
]The Earl of Darlington and Mr Tidsall, on the 12th ult, bagged 48 brace of grouse on the Invercauld moors, Aberdeenshire.
Mr Hancock's steam carriage from London reached Birmingham on Friday morning last, having performed its journey, it is stated, without accident or impediment, at a rate exceeding ten miles an hour.
Holborn Hill. — The project of a viaduct from Fetter-lane to the top of Snow-hill is revived. The annual traffic along this line is computed to be upwards of 20,000,000 of pedestrians, 87,640 equestrians, 372,470 carts and waggons, 78,876 stages, 157,752 hackney coaches, 82,258 carriages, 135,842 omnibuses, 460,110 chaises and taxed carts, and 354,942 cabriolets.
[The traffic statistics quoted in the last report are amazingly precise!]
Lloyd
master brummie
"go go gurls"? Nearly. They look like Jo Cook's "Go-Jo's" who were later replaced on pop shows like "Top of the Pops" by Flick Colby's "Pan's People". A lifetime and a half ago now. *Sigh*
Ah yes, Towcester. Pronounced "Toaster". I did for a short while stay with relatives in a nearby village, Blakesley, where the last Lord of the Manor (Yorkshire colliery owner Charles Bartholomew) who lived in the now-demolished hall had until WW2 a miniature railway that ran through the grounds, and to the local station on the erstwhile Stratford and Midland Junction (and previously the "East and West Junction") Railway. The last engine, Blackolvesley, a steam-outline 4-4-4T powered by a petrol engine in the 'boiler', still exists and lives on the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway.
The lay-by in that picture of Towcester was the coach stop, named after the adjacent "Brave old Oak" Inn.
Ah yes, Towcester. Pronounced "Toaster". I did for a short while stay with relatives in a nearby village, Blakesley, where the last Lord of the Manor (Yorkshire colliery owner Charles Bartholomew) who lived in the now-demolished hall had until WW2 a miniature railway that ran through the grounds, and to the local station on the erstwhile Stratford and Midland Junction (and previously the "East and West Junction") Railway. The last engine, Blackolvesley, a steam-outline 4-4-4T powered by a petrol engine in the 'boiler', still exists and lives on the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway.
The lay-by in that picture of Towcester was the coach stop, named after the adjacent "Brave old Oak" Inn.
Last edited:
Thylacine
master brummie
[This letter to The Times (7 August 1835) was discovered by Molesworth. Nathaniel Ogle lived not far from Sherlock Holmes! ]
The Late Loss of Life by the Bursting of Steam Boilers in the Earl Grey, &c.
To the Editor of The Times.
Sir, — The numerous explosions of steam boilers which are reported in your paper to have occurred within a week, and to have destroyed, mutilated, and scalded nearly 100 persons, induce me to trespass on your columns as an act of duty, and to state a few facts which may command the attention of steam-boat companies and others who use steam power, and who are, without doubt, responsible for the injury inflicted on the public and their workmen, who equally confide in the selection, for knowledge and conduct, of the engine-man, and the condition of the boiler.
After some years' experience I am of opinion —
1. That no low pressure boiler, used in any steam-boat, mine, or factory, can be deemed perfectly safe.
2. That all such boilers are behind the age in which we live, and should, as quickly as possible, be removed.
3. That while they are used the safety valve should be so arranged that the engine-man should not be able to overload the valve or fasten the lever.
4. The cylindrical high pressure boilers now used on the railways are not safe, and (including those constructed with air tubes from end to end of the lower diameter) would become, in all probability, steam-guns, blowing the train of carriages to atoms, if the water (not an unlikely occurrence) were not supplied in sufficient quantity by the pump.
5. High pressure boilers, properly constructed, are without doubt perfectly safe. No one ever heard of a boiler in one of Hancock's carriages bursting, though his boiler is not the safest extant, neither in Gurney's, nor in my own. The boiler used by Russell, and which blew up between Glasgow and Paisley, was a disgrace to common sense, and a dangerous mechanical monstrosity. When Mr Dawney brought two carriages of a similar construction to London I spoke to him on their being unsafe. They have since been purchased for 800 guineas by James Johnston Esq, and I am sorry to say have within a few days been used in the neighbourhood of Deptford. Sharpe and Roberts also constructed a boiler which exploded, and which showed neither a knowledge of philosophy nor the force of the power they were using.
6. The excuse usually made by steam-boat proprietors, or the directors of companies, that "salt water cannot be used in high pressure boilers, constructed as Gurney's, Hancock's, or Ogle's", is futile. Sea water never should be used. Humphreys, in the Emerald, used the same spring water over and over again for three years. Howard does it also, and I believe that it is in a few instances slowly forcing its way. It infers either prejudice or want of information to persevere in the present system.
7. Stowage, cabin-room, and comfort are effectually destroyed by the use of the present low pressure boiler. The radiating surface being so much more expanded renders the vessel hot and disagreeable. All vessels are nearly one-fourth larger than necessary by using them. On a lee shore in stormy weather there is a low limit to the pressure capable of being used in the present boilers. In the boiler used by the steam-carriage which runs to Windsor, or in my own, there is no danger, even up to 600 lb on the square inch, and then if any part should yield to the extreme pressure, it would only act as a safety-valve to the rest, and do no harm. I have worked at 400 lb on the square inch on a great emergency, and always use from 220 lb to 250 lb, and never yet saw the slightest accident.
8. The directors of steam-boat companies, the proprietors of mines, and the committees of railway companies, would do only their duty to the public, were they to appoint (selected from themselves) a board of examination, not merely led by their engineers, but consisting of scientific and unprejudiced men, and act at once upon their report.
The lamentable loss of life, and the desperate agonies inflicted by the bursting of these mechanical absurdities, call for immediate examination and public interference.
As a proof of what I have said of the safety (their efficiency is proved by their propelling carriages at great velocities) of the boilers used by me, if any steam-boat proprietors will undertake to put one into any vessel, I will make a boiler red hot, stand on the top, and inject cold water into it. Such a test of perfect safety cannot be doubted, and my only motive for making so public a proposal arises from a sincere wish to prevent, if possible, the continuation of a system fraught with danger of life and limb to the many who trust themselves without a knowledge of their danger.
I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
Nathaniel Ogle.
68, Baker-street, Portman-square, July 30.
]The Late Loss of Life by the Bursting of Steam Boilers in the Earl Grey, &c.
To the Editor of The Times.
Sir, — The numerous explosions of steam boilers which are reported in your paper to have occurred within a week, and to have destroyed, mutilated, and scalded nearly 100 persons, induce me to trespass on your columns as an act of duty, and to state a few facts which may command the attention of steam-boat companies and others who use steam power, and who are, without doubt, responsible for the injury inflicted on the public and their workmen, who equally confide in the selection, for knowledge and conduct, of the engine-man, and the condition of the boiler.
After some years' experience I am of opinion —
1. That no low pressure boiler, used in any steam-boat, mine, or factory, can be deemed perfectly safe.
2. That all such boilers are behind the age in which we live, and should, as quickly as possible, be removed.
3. That while they are used the safety valve should be so arranged that the engine-man should not be able to overload the valve or fasten the lever.
4. The cylindrical high pressure boilers now used on the railways are not safe, and (including those constructed with air tubes from end to end of the lower diameter) would become, in all probability, steam-guns, blowing the train of carriages to atoms, if the water (not an unlikely occurrence) were not supplied in sufficient quantity by the pump.
5. High pressure boilers, properly constructed, are without doubt perfectly safe. No one ever heard of a boiler in one of Hancock's carriages bursting, though his boiler is not the safest extant, neither in Gurney's, nor in my own. The boiler used by Russell, and which blew up between Glasgow and Paisley, was a disgrace to common sense, and a dangerous mechanical monstrosity. When Mr Dawney brought two carriages of a similar construction to London I spoke to him on their being unsafe. They have since been purchased for 800 guineas by James Johnston Esq, and I am sorry to say have within a few days been used in the neighbourhood of Deptford. Sharpe and Roberts also constructed a boiler which exploded, and which showed neither a knowledge of philosophy nor the force of the power they were using.
6. The excuse usually made by steam-boat proprietors, or the directors of companies, that "salt water cannot be used in high pressure boilers, constructed as Gurney's, Hancock's, or Ogle's", is futile. Sea water never should be used. Humphreys, in the Emerald, used the same spring water over and over again for three years. Howard does it also, and I believe that it is in a few instances slowly forcing its way. It infers either prejudice or want of information to persevere in the present system.
7. Stowage, cabin-room, and comfort are effectually destroyed by the use of the present low pressure boiler. The radiating surface being so much more expanded renders the vessel hot and disagreeable. All vessels are nearly one-fourth larger than necessary by using them. On a lee shore in stormy weather there is a low limit to the pressure capable of being used in the present boilers. In the boiler used by the steam-carriage which runs to Windsor, or in my own, there is no danger, even up to 600 lb on the square inch, and then if any part should yield to the extreme pressure, it would only act as a safety-valve to the rest, and do no harm. I have worked at 400 lb on the square inch on a great emergency, and always use from 220 lb to 250 lb, and never yet saw the slightest accident.
8. The directors of steam-boat companies, the proprietors of mines, and the committees of railway companies, would do only their duty to the public, were they to appoint (selected from themselves) a board of examination, not merely led by their engineers, but consisting of scientific and unprejudiced men, and act at once upon their report.
The lamentable loss of life, and the desperate agonies inflicted by the bursting of these mechanical absurdities, call for immediate examination and public interference.
As a proof of what I have said of the safety (their efficiency is proved by their propelling carriages at great velocities) of the boilers used by me, if any steam-boat proprietors will undertake to put one into any vessel, I will make a boiler red hot, stand on the top, and inject cold water into it. Such a test of perfect safety cannot be doubted, and my only motive for making so public a proposal arises from a sincere wish to prevent, if possible, the continuation of a system fraught with danger of life and limb to the many who trust themselves without a knowledge of their danger.
I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
Nathaniel Ogle.
68, Baker-street, Portman-square, July 30.
Thylacine
master brummie
In the absence of "our gurls", we can at least have our pin-ups! Let's hear it for Jo Cook's Gojos (1964-1969), who certainly "raised the steam" in their time. Top row (left to right): Jane Bartlett, Thelma Bignell, Linda Hotchkin. Bottom row (left to right): Barbara von der Heyde, Wendy Hillhouse, Lesley Larbey. Can anyone find a picture of founder member / choreographer / manager Jo Cook?
Aidan
master brummie
Go-Go Gurls - Day Tripper - what were/are we on? All Strangely Strange.
The dates of the reports are:
* Berrow's Worcester Journal (Worcester, England), Thursday, September 17, 1835; pg. [1] Issue 6929
* The Times, Friday, Aug 07, 1835; pg. 7 Issue 15862 col C
The modern entrance to Lactodurum: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=52...=0lzz3W2CEnwr6cimnMiC1w&cbp=12,296.79,,1,8.09
Pic of what I thought was Holborn Viaduct but is actually Fleet Street along with current streetview https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51...Z2DDEyTOnTr_oipGWbHniA&cbp=12,107.15,,0,13.99 (the original bridge over Ludgate Hill carried the only mainline railway to cross Central London, now underground, which you can see chuffing across).
Here is a view of the architectural triumph of Holborn Viaduct - this is the only part visible although the span covers 0.25 miles between Fetter lane & Snow Hill: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51...id=VKZMltmxAVO78PeE_RTzaQ&cbp=12,8.7,,0,-2.28 Strange then that it was not built until 1869 (started 1863) I do have an orig pic somewhere & will post when found - update: found and attached
The dates of the reports are:
* Berrow's Worcester Journal (Worcester, England), Thursday, September 17, 1835; pg. [1] Issue 6929
* The Times, Friday, Aug 07, 1835; pg. 7 Issue 15862 col C
The modern entrance to Lactodurum: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=52...=0lzz3W2CEnwr6cimnMiC1w&cbp=12,296.79,,1,8.09
Pic of what I thought was Holborn Viaduct but is actually Fleet Street along with current streetview https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51...Z2DDEyTOnTr_oipGWbHniA&cbp=12,107.15,,0,13.99 (the original bridge over Ludgate Hill carried the only mainline railway to cross Central London, now underground, which you can see chuffing across).
Here is a view of the architectural triumph of Holborn Viaduct - this is the only part visible although the span covers 0.25 miles between Fetter lane & Snow Hill: https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51...id=VKZMltmxAVO78PeE_RTzaQ&cbp=12,8.7,,0,-2.28 Strange then that it was not built until 1869 (started 1863) I do have an orig pic somewhere & will post when found - update: found and attached
Last edited:
Thylacine
master brummie
Thanks for those dates, Molesworth! The Berrow's date suggests that the "Erin" arrived in Brum on Friday 11 September 1835, having taken a fortnight on its journey from London. This suggests that the 10 mph speed quoted should be qualified by "when it was moving": there must have been numerous problems en route. No wonder Hancock was reticent! (Unless the 28 August start date was just an "approximation".)
Re: Lactodurum / Towcester. I'll resist the temptation to link to the "What have the Romans done for us" scene in "Life of Brian"!
Re: Lactodurum / Towcester. I'll resist the temptation to link to the "What have the Romans done for us" scene in "Life of Brian"!
Thylacine
master brummie
Molesworth, that's an excellent picture of Fleet Street (late 19th century?): full of transport interest. Thanks. :thumbsup: It's good to see that Holborn Viaduct has survived the ravages of time.
DavidGrain
master brummie
Holborn Viaduct is not the only High Level street in London.
One day I was standing in this road slighly confused as to where I was as I was sure that I had not walked round in a circle to come back to Holborn Viaduct
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&...oid=-0kv2Gv4UHiaKimrIw9t8A&cbp=12,293.16,,0,5
I asked a passer by if the road above was Holborn Viaduct and was told no it was Rosebery Avenue
One day I was standing in this road slighly confused as to where I was as I was sure that I had not walked round in a circle to come back to Holborn Viaduct
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&...oid=-0kv2Gv4UHiaKimrIw9t8A&cbp=12,293.16,,0,5
I asked a passer by if the road above was Holborn Viaduct and was told no it was Rosebery Avenue
Aidan
master brummie
Very good. I was tempted by a whole range of aged bearded hippie pics, but I must give myself some limits so here is, possibly, the 5170HA Leopard in happier times along with some other stuff (ok the Reagan one is 1952...)
DavidGrain
master brummie
It was almost certainly part of the Fleet Valley as I walked up Farringdon Road and turned left into Warner Street heading to Mount Pleasant for the Postal Museum for a talk on the Post Office Underground Railway. (Boring talk, I fell asleep in the hot lecture theatre)
Lloyd
master brummie
Re: Early Smethwick Registration.
Thornycroft, yes. The radiator is the same design as on a (much bigger) 'Parrafin Tractor' demonstrated to the War Department at about the same time, so steam? -I don't think so.
Another tell-tale is the drip tray under the engine and gearbox, which was a licencing authority requirement in some areas.
The body is a very basic 'toastrack' charabanc, without doors or even steps, making loading, unloading and travelling rather dangerous. Note one chap with his foot on the brake lever! A brick behind the offside rear wheel does not speak well of an efficient handbrake, either.
Thornycroft's factory for road vehicles was in Basingstoke, Hampshire, and all other pics I've seen of them on trade plate have the correct "AA" letters. Why this shows "HA" (Smethwick) is unknown.
This 1910 Thornycroft charabanc appears to be steam powered (am I right?). And look at the registration!
[From "Old Truck Pictures"]
Thornycroft, yes. The radiator is the same design as on a (much bigger) 'Parrafin Tractor' demonstrated to the War Department at about the same time, so steam? -I don't think so.
Another tell-tale is the drip tray under the engine and gearbox, which was a licencing authority requirement in some areas.
The body is a very basic 'toastrack' charabanc, without doors or even steps, making loading, unloading and travelling rather dangerous. Note one chap with his foot on the brake lever! A brick behind the offside rear wheel does not speak well of an efficient handbrake, either.
Thornycroft's factory for road vehicles was in Basingstoke, Hampshire, and all other pics I've seen of them on trade plate have the correct "AA" letters. Why this shows "HA" (Smethwick) is unknown.
DavidGrain
master brummie
Re: Early Smethwick Registration
One time I was in London in the Westminster area (not far from MI6 but lets not talk about that), I spotted a Harrods electric delivery vehicle with a Smethwick reg 8??? HA. A rounded front end looking like a stretched milk float with a van body. Any ideas anyone?
One time I was in London in the Westminster area (not far from MI6 but lets not talk about that), I spotted a Harrods electric delivery vehicle with a Smethwick reg 8??? HA. A rounded front end looking like a stretched milk float with a van body. Any ideas anyone?
Aidan
master brummie
Did it look like the Gillings vehicle? Are you tugging at our chain...?
Aside in Loud stage whisper: <you mentioned it once, but I think you got away with it all right>
Aside in Loud stage whisper: <you mentioned it once, but I think you got away with it all right>
motorman-mike
Brum visitor who stayed.
With my Scottish Steam Spirit in hand, a mellow perspective of this thread comes over me as the gurls exit right before I even have time to see them properly behind the mop tops. We then get taken on a Magical Mystery Tour in a Smethwick registered steam charabang along the Midland Red 'G' route, my happiest memory of which is driving ex Stratford Blue Alexander bodied Leyland Leopard 36 now renumbered 2036 in Midland Red parlance, and passing concrete cows at Milton Keynes and the Ovaltine factory somewhere near St. Albans. ( quote Harry Worth: I don't know why, but there it is). It also brings to mind going bust (running out of seats) at Daventry on a Sunday return 'G' and carrying standing passengers as the United Counties depot was closed on Sunday's so a duplicate would have to have come up from Northampton, causing delay, even if you could get one. Wonder if Erin had a dupe available on on Sundays, possibly a horse drawn haywain from a local farmer methinks. "Yers some more of they townies, spose I bedder ged 'em back".
Aidan
master brummie
Cue: Bach's Air on the "G" Route https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MYzkBiJn5Y 
The Concrete Cows of Milton Keynes were included in a list of the 100 most influential works of twentieth century open-air sculpture in England. That's on the occasion they take up their original position and not the various ones that local "villeins", or perhaps haywain-driving farmers (thinks: Range Rovers seem more de rigueur these days), put them in
The Concrete Cows of Milton Keynes were included in a list of the 100 most influential works of twentieth century open-air sculpture in England. That's on the occasion they take up their original position and not the various ones that local "villeins", or perhaps haywain-driving farmers (thinks: Range Rovers seem more de rigueur these days), put them in
motorman-mike
Brum visitor who stayed.
If I didn't know you better Aiden Molesworth I would swear you used that Bach clip to lead us astray with the bikini gurls that you somehow got mixed in with the classical gas over there on the youtube menu
.
.
Aidan
master brummie
Oops - YouTube don't record previous visits? Dey do dough, don't dey? D'Oh
While we're in Harry Enfield area & thinking about Gurls, I love their parodies of old Public Information Films eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39qdhbkTko4 & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU
While we're in Harry Enfield area & thinking about Gurls, I love their parodies of old Public Information Films eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39qdhbkTko4 & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZwNGU
motorman-mike
Brum visitor who stayed.
There's the Cheshire M registration again, so reckon we have two factory registered Fodens in the first pic but the Dorset FX is more of a mystery on a Devonian lorry unless, that is, it is a Dorset built Hindley first registered in that county or perhaps second hand.
Thylacine
master brummie
Good Moaning!
Good morning Steamgoons!
Thanks Lloyd for your perceptive analysis of the Thornycroft picture. Definitely not steam, but couldn't the Smethwick plate possibly be genuine? (We've been disappointed in our search for early Smethwick registrations once before on the MRED thread).
Yes, the Thornycroft wasn't built for comfort or style! The lady st the front is hogging the travel rugs (must be the driver's gurlfriend). Everyone else is well dressed against the weather. The early bus spotters seem to like the charabanc!
[Let's have a "sidebar" competition: find a picture of a motor vehicle with the earliest (genuine) Smethwick (HA) registration. Extra points if it's a bus or coach, and a gold star if it's steam powered!]
Good morning Steamgoons!
Thanks Lloyd for your perceptive analysis of the Thornycroft picture. Definitely not steam, but couldn't the Smethwick plate possibly be genuine? (We've been disappointed in our search for early Smethwick registrations once before on the MRED thread).
Yes, the Thornycroft wasn't built for comfort or style! The lady st the front is hogging the travel rugs (must be the driver's gurlfriend). Everyone else is well dressed against the weather. The early bus spotters seem to like the charabanc!
[Let's have a "sidebar" competition: find a picture of a motor vehicle with the earliest (genuine) Smethwick (HA) registration. Extra points if it's a bus or coach, and a gold star if it's steam powered!
]
Thylacine
master brummie
NIce!
:thumbsup::smile2: It would sound wonderful played on our steam calliope (provided it is well-tempered).
Lloyd
master brummie
It does look like a Hindley, so factory registered we must assume. Compare to a similar model below.
The Anchor, Chudleigh, is still recognisable - just.
The Anchor, Chudleigh, is still recognisable - just.