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Victoria Square - uncovering an old road

H

horsencart

master brummie
Edit. Unfortunately the photos in this post are no longer available. But some images of the excavation have been posted by Keny r in post #39


A Paved or Cobbled set of stones has been unearthed as the Tramway is being built in Victoria Square the stone appear to be very old? how at the moment is not known, also the section of the pathway? is a lot long that in the four photos they as yet have not uncovered the rest, they may have to dig the stones up to see is there is a water tunnel? or if it is just a path or roadway? there are a small number of theory's what it is/was here are four photo to look at
https://flic.kr/p/28mPAiX
 
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Thanks for posting the pics, though the number of times Victoria Square has been "messed with"in my lifetime, it's surprising it hasn't been noticed before. Will be interesting to see what, if anything, develops.

Maurice
 
They have dug deeper than they did before, when I left they were waiting for someone to have look at the stones?


sospiri said:
Thanks for posting the pics, though the number of times Victoria Square has been "messed with"in my lifetime, it's surprising it hasn't been noticed before. Will be interesting to see what, if anything, develops.

Maurice
Click to expand...
 
Looks promising - could these be 'kidney stones' mentioned in histories of Birmingham ? The smaller stones vaguely resemble kidneys. Viv.
 
It will be very interesting to find out what the researchers discover about this find. This area of the city does not seem to have the historical data that The St. Martins, Moor Street and Digbeth area has.
The road to Dudley seemed to originate in that neck of the woods.
 
Cannot see anything on any maps that would correspond to something there. all the drawings and paintings of the area seem to show a plain surace, so it does look as if it might be pre-victorian, unless of course it is a very well built roof of a conduit
 
Until we know what the stones are, on the subject of petrified kidney stones, they were used for footpaths until around the 1850s. They were very unpopular, complaints ranging from impossible to walk comfortably on, playing havoc with rheumatism, sharp or slippery and pedestrian's walking (at risk) in the road rather than using these pavements. In the 1930s one of these pavements still survived in Deritend.

When they were fast being replaced, one (tongue in cheek) suggestion was to take a cast of the stones and place it in the Art Gallery for posterity. Wish they had ! Viv.
 

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I bet a Quid that it is a Roman road, saw a section in The Forest of Dean in the 1950's and it was the spitting image of this. I remember I was skeptical due to the width. It was pointed out that it only had to be possible for three Legionnaires to march three abreast and they were on the small side. I have been told that the Standard Railway Gauge was based on this premise but stranger things Horatio etc.
Cheers Tim
 
It certainly has the appearance of a roman road, though a little narrower than those I have seen photos of
 
Just a quick up date had another look today (tried to get a shot from a different angle and failed) the roadway? stops a few feet (possibly dug up in the past?) going the other way the roadway appears to go under the footing of the former Post Office or at least one corner of the building
 
I wonder if the dotted road or pathway that ends or starts in a field on the upper centre of this section of the 1553 map depicting the top end of New Street has any connection?

top of New Street 1553.jpg
 
This will turn out to be an ancient Saxon road, or at least that is what it says in the Birmingham Mail.
 
BBC WM announced tonight that it was thought to be a road way. A team of experts will be looking at it in more detail soon.
 
The Birmingham Mail has narrowed it down somewhat , in todays paper it says the road is thought to be Victorian or Medieval.
 
Yes, it appears that the Birmingham Mail is just as speculative as everyone else about age of the recently found road; in other words they have no more of an idea than many others given the wide range of dates proposed - Roman to Victorian.
Victorian would, I believe be surprising as many large Victorian era, including the Town Hall, buildings have been built in the area. Looking at the Mail photo I would not be surprised if the road was previously discovered when the Town Hall was built. Given the importance and need for the Town Hall in the minds of the city fathers 'old roads' found would be seen as of no significance. Incidentally Dudley Road - in its various guises - is one of the very oldest roads in the city.
Maybe BHF Members can come up with ideas based on what was there before the Town Hall and other important buildings were constructed. I am sure there are folk here with more acumen than many of those speculating in the B. Mail. :D
 
Radiorails, my previous post was written in jest because of the wide range of speculation submitted by the mail.
 
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I'm sure this road goes back to before Birmingham City as we know it today, originally the town centre consisted of 18 street only, and they were,

High Street Bordesley
Chappell Street
Dale End
Dale End Barrs
Deritend
Dudwall Lane
Digbeth
Edgbaston Street
English Market
High Street
Little Park Street
Mercer Street
Molle Street
New Street
Swan Alley
Welch Market
Well Street
Priors Conyngre Lane

The last one being the one nearest to the road, lane , track, or path in question and was on land assumed to belong to the local Priory as was a lot of other land in Birmingham city centre
 
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And the bad news is that it is a Victorian Road that is what the archaeologist said to me and another photographer today, now he is the bloke with a trowel and possibly lots of letters after his name so why do I still think that the roadway is a lot older than it looks? is it just me? any road up I took a few more shots today, the road way is a little wider that I first thought it was, there are 6 shots to see and I managed to get a side few of the road way https://www.flickr.com/photos/dofartshavelumps/42035790315/in/dateposted/
 
If it is Victorian then I guess it solves problems for the developers of the tramway system.
I do wonder what lies beneath this roadway Given the Town Hall was opened in 1834, that is three years before Princess Alexandrina Victoria was crowned Queen and thus before the official Victorian era, it all still seems a puzzle. Horsencart is right to have a doubt.
 
I second (or third) that doubt. I was going to ask the same question horsencart. Also, it doesn't seem to slope up does it, and if it's Victorian why isn't it on the same level as the Town Hall instead of seeming to be much lower. Do you think 'they' want to keep its importance quiet so that it doesn't hold up the tramway?
 
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