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Rivers : Forgotten Streams or Brooks of Birmingham

daimlerman said:
Eric Gibson refers to "The brook" that ran from Finchley Park along the back gardens of Hurlingham Road. I believe originally it was known as Hawthorn Brook. I think Lodge pool was probably where the old prefab island is in Warren Farm Road. The ground rises quite steeply each side and the Brook is now culverted in some places that were once open.
From our adventures as small boys (I lived in Cranbourne road), The Brook as Eric says, was open along Hurlingham Road. It Went into a blue brick tunnel under the island at Sidcup Road then opened along Cranbourne road before another curved tunnel under Danesbury Crescent, then opened up along Warren Farm Road prefabs.
Back into a long tunnel, until near Elswick Road. Somewhere near there, my pal climbed up some iron steps and popped a man hole cover in someone's back garden. He was firecly beaten back down by an old lady with a broom!
It eventually joined under Finchley Road (I think), with an arm that ran out of Finchley Park and along the rec, under college Road and on to Witton Lakes.
From what I learned as a kid, it started somewhere near Rough Road reservoir., and split, at Finchley Park, one arm directed through the rec and playing fields,
the other skirting the pimple (kingstanding beacon) and through the estate.
It was a natural Brook but redirected when Warren Farm Estate was built 1929, 1931. It was straightened and curved to accommodate the shape of the housing estate. There were various pipes layed to empty storm drains, and man holes with iron steps, some in the middle of the roads.
During heavy rain it carried a huge and potentially dangerous volume of water, sometimes flooding the back gardens along it course, before emptying into Witton Lakes.
Our parents would tell us never to go down there as it might harbour Polio and Black fever. Happy days.
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The brook your talking about runs underneath Witon Lodge Road, and although the area is regenerated . The houses mainly Dovedale Road, and Maxted Road the brook runs yards from the back of their gardens.
Although foliage now covers the banks, and it’s very hard to see the brook.

From under Witton Lodge Road it then appears in what was Perry Common Recreation Ground it then flows under Perry Common Road, and emerges on Witton Lodge park going into the lakes.

Interesting you said about flooding we used to live 2 houses from the brook on Witton Lodge Road. There are only 4 detached houses overlooking the then recreation ground we were one of them.
I was told the ground our houses stood was a builders yard years ago, and it flooded, I’m not sure how because the ground was at least 20 feet higher than the brook.

However the recreation ground flooded in a flash storm in 2013.
The brook back flowed and gardens were flooded in Dovedale Road.
The causes was a tree had grown across the brook on the RG, and caused a log jam.

My husband had the presence of mind to take photos of how much flooding on the RG there was.
Birmingham City Council were in the process of almost starting building houses on the RG, convinced that flooding never would happen.

However, they had to go back and rethink their plans because of the photos, really it was a fluke regarding the flooding because of the tree, but unless the brook is maintained it could well happen again.
They have built houses on a third of the RG, but put in I think they are called Swales, big ugly drains, but I still think the volume of water is a problem there to some degree. Also there is a culvate in Witton Lode Road that runs water into the brook from I don’t know where.lol
However, I have noticed that Perry Common Road were the brook runs under is now flooding when we have heavy rain fall.

I lived in Cranbourne Road opposite Tansley Road cannot remember any brook.
 
Diane1947 said:
The brook your talking about runs underneath Witon Lodge Road, and although the area is regenerated . The houses mainly Dovedale Road, and Maxted Road the brook runs yards from the back of their gardens.
Although foliage now covers the banks, and it’s very hard to see the brook.

From under Witton Lodge Road it then appears in what was Perry Common Recreation Ground it then flows under Perry Common Road, and emerges on Witton Lodge park going into the lakes.

Interesting you said about flooding we used to live 2 houses from the brook on Witton Lodge Road. There are only 4 detached houses overlooking the then recreation ground we were one of them.
I was told the ground our houses stood was a builders yard years ago, and it flooded, I’m not sure how because the ground was at least 20 feet higher than the brook.

However the recreation ground flooded in a flash storm in 2013.
The brook back flowed and gardens were flooded in Dovedale Road.
The causes was a tree had grown across the brook on the RG, and caused a log jam.

My husband had the presence of mind to take photos of how much flooding on the RG there was.
Birmingham City Council were in the process of almost starting building houses on the RG, convinced that flooding never would happen.

However, they had to go back and rethink their plans because of the photos, really it was a fluke regarding the flooding because of the tree, but unless the brook is maintained it could well happen again.
They have built houses on a third of the RG, but put in I think they are called Swales, big ugly drains, but I still think the volume of water is a problem there to some degree. Also there is a culvate in Witton Lode Road that runs water into the brook from I don’t know where.lol
However, I have noticed that Perry Common Road were the brook runs under is now flooding when we have heavy rain fall.

I lived in Cranbourne Road opposite Tansley Road cannot remember any brook.
Click to expand...
You may find the problem with flooding is not understood properly by the environment and water boards. I used to fish the river Arrow just downstream of Wixford.
This area was as flat as a pancake both sides of the river, being that flat was evidence that it flooded regularly in winter. 2006 the water board came cut all the split boughs that were still attached to the trees but lying in the river, they then took a tree out of the middle of the river on a bend and straightened the river taking out three S bends. Downpour in 2007 it never flooded but the Avon flooded instead with them having to close the Crown meadow bridge in the centre of Evesham.
 
Diane1947 said:
The brook your talking about runs underneath Witon Lodge Road, and although the area is regenerated . The houses mainly Dovedale Road, and Maxted Road the brook runs yards from the back of their gardens.
Although foliage now covers the banks, and it’s very hard to see the brook.

From under Witton Lodge Road it then appears in what was Perry Common Recreation Ground it then flows under Perry Common Road, and emerges on Witton Lodge park going into the lakes.

Interesting you said about flooding we used to live 2 houses from the brook on Witton Lodge Road. There are only 4 detached houses overlooking the then recreation ground we were one of them.
I was told the ground our houses stood was a builders yard years ago, and it flooded, I’m not sure how because the ground was at least 20 feet higher than the brook.

However the recreation ground flooded in a flash storm in 2013.
The brook back flowed and gardens were flooded in Dovedale Road.
The causes was a tree had grown across the brook on the RG, and caused a log jam.

My husband had the presence of mind to take photos of how much flooding on the RG there was.
Birmingham City Council were in the process of almost starting building houses on the RG, convinced that flooding never would happen.

However, they had to go back and rethink their plans because of the photos, really it was a fluke regarding the flooding because of the tree, but unless the brook is maintained it could well happen again.
They have built houses on a third of the RG, but put in I think they are called Swales, big ugly drains, but I still think the volume of water is a problem there to some degree. Also there is a culvate in Witton Lode Road that runs water into the brook from I don’t know where.lol
However, I have noticed that Perry Common Road were the brook runs under is now flooding when we have heavy rain fall.

I lived in Cranbourne Road opposite Tansley Road cannot remember any brook.
Click to expand...
Hi Diane
If you lived opposite Tansley Road, you wouldn't have seen the Brook from there.
It ran behind the houses in Hurligham Road, and under the island on Sidcup Road, then behind the houses opposite Cranbourne road school.
The cuttings for the Brook was behind railings and quite deep. However, the brick tunnels were smaller and couldn't always cope causing the water level to rise sometimes reaching the back gardens.
When we used to explore the tunnels we would have been drowned if a storm broke.
A large section of open brook in the middle of Warren Farm road has now been covered over, no doubt to stop Inquisitive boys getting into trouble. Happy days.
 
Vivienne14 said:
Well that’s a surprise Mort. Thanks. Must have been well hidden. Viv
Click to expand...
Yep, between the prefabs was where us kids used to climb over the railings and follow the brook all the way to witton lakes..It was quite a large open section in Warren Farm road. The footbridge of the brook there, was crazy paved with a picture of the Birmingham coat of arms.
That particular section on brook, before emerging from the tunnel ran from Finchley Park, along the back gardens of Hurlingham Road, under the island at Sidcup Road, then into the open space along the back gardens of Cranbourne road before going into another tunnel which emerged in Warren Farm Road. Then onwards into a long tunnel, opening again along back gardens around Elswick Road. Eventually we got to witton lakes.
 
On old maps this appears as the Hawthorn Brook and used to supply the 'Swimming Bath' for the trainee priests at the College. It's also mentioned on the Birmingham Racing thread as it was a 'hazard' for the steeple chases held on Rabbit Warren Farm. I think someone posted on a different thread that the words 'swimming pool' appeared until quite recently by the Maxted Road area.
 

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Well well well, after a lot of digging and research today I finally found the correct names of the Brooks through Kingstanding. I was trying to find plans and construction notes for Warren Farm Estate.
Using old OS maps didn't really pin-point a definitive start point but by chance I came across a Birmingham Corporation flooding risk assessment of about 285 pages.
Eventually I came across Witton lakes and its feeder Brooks. I found a highlighted page (don't ask me where) showing clearly the open brook and culverts spoken about previously.
Eric Gibson states in his post he and his pals would follow the brook (upstream) underground in tunnels from the open section along Hurlingham Road and reach the overflow of the pond in Finchley Park. This route is WARREN BROOK.
Going downstream from Hurlingham Road, Cranbourne road, Warren Farm road , Warren brook empties Into HAWTHORN BROOK after passing under College Road. Hawthorn brook also passes through the pool in Finchley Park which in turn is part of a natural water course rising somewhere towards Sutton Park. I also believe it also carries excess water from the underground reservoir on Rough road.
It all empties into Witton lakes, which is also fed from another brook, from the opposite side of the lakes known as SHORT HEATH BROOK.
Well, I hope that clears up the mystery.( for me at least). We now know they are natural watercourses and if nothing else I'm happy to have established which name belongs to which section. I hope you enjoyed the voyage. Phew!
 
daimlerman said:
Well well well, after a lot of digging and research today I finally found the correct names of the Brooks through Kingstanding. I was trying to find plans and construction notes for Warren Farm Estate.
Using old OS maps didn't really pin-point a definitive start point but by chance I came across a Birmingham Corporation flooding risk assessment of about 285 pages.
Eventually I came across Witton lakes and its feeder Brooks. I found a highlighted page (don't ask me where) showing clearly the open brook and culverts spoken about previously.
Eric Gibson states in his post he and his pals would follow the brook (upstream) underground in tunnels from the open section along Hurlingham Road and reach the overflow of the pond in Finchley Park. This route is WARREN BROOK.
Going downstream from Hurlingham Road, Cranbourne road, Warren Farm road , Warren brook empties Into HAWTHORN BROOK after passing under College Road. Hawthorn brook also passes through the pool in Finchley Park which in turn is part of a natural water course rising somewhere towards Sutton Park. I also believe it also carries excess water from the underground reservoir on Rough road.
It all empties into Witton lakes, which is also fed from another brook, from the opposite side of the lakes known as SHORT HEATH BROOK.
Well, I hope that clears up the mystery.( for me at least). We now know they are natural watercourses and if nothing else I'm happy to have established which name belongs to which section. I hope you enjoyed the voyage. Phew!
Click to expand...
Well done, Daimlerman!
 
daimlerman said:
Well well well, after a lot of digging and research today I finally found the correct names of the Brooks through Kingstanding. I was trying to find plans and construction notes for Warren Farm Estate.
Using old OS maps didn't really pin-point a definitive start point but by chance I came across a Birmingham Corporation flooding risk assessment of about 285 pages.
Eventually I came across Witton lakes and its feeder Brooks. I found a highlighted page (don't ask me where) showing clearly the open brook and culverts spoken about previously.
Eric Gibson states in his post he and his pals would follow the brook (upstream) underground in tunnels from the open section along Hurlingham Road and reach the overflow of the pond in Finchley Park. This route is WARREN BROOK.
Going downstream from Hurlingham Road, Cranbourne road, Warren Farm road , Warren brook empties Into HAWTHORN BROOK after passing under College Road. Hawthorn brook also passes through the pool in Finchley Park which in turn is part of a natural water course rising somewhere towards Sutton Park. I also believe it also carries excess water from the underground reservoir on Rough road.
It all empties into Witton lakes, which is also fed from another brook, from the opposite side of the lakes known as SHORT HEATH BROOK.
Well, I hope that clears up the mystery.( for me at least). We now know they are natural watercourses and if nothing else I'm happy to have established which name belongs to which section. I hope you enjoyed the voyage. Phew!
Click to expand...
Excellent job, thanks. Was there any further information on the origins of Shortheath Brook? It disappears into a long tunnel in parkland of streeley Road in the direction of Station Road. As kids we would venture up so far, but it seems mile long with no end in sight.
 
The Short Heath Brook referred to is indicated here on the most recent OS Map and joining the main Hawthorn Brook
from the east.


0048DE7C-0F92-4C72-8129-3AA9C08B4C2A.jpeg
 
Screenshot_20221122_102030_Word.jpg
The Brooks are all in this screenshot image, including Short heath brook. It loos like it disappeares under Erdington and emerges into Erdington.
The blue highlighting shows where they have flooded. You should be able to expand it for close detail.
Hope this helps as the whole document is to large to upload.
Jeff.
 
Thank you very much. Looking at the contour lines, it looks like Erdington Brook has become mostly culverted and drains into the Tame at Bromford. Short heath Book drains into Witton Lakes. I used to play at the confluence of Short heath and Hawthorn Brook.
 
So, in conclusion to my research the question of Why? Should be addressed.
Well I think most of us who are interested in our own history, and that of a particular area look for answers to questions that were never addressed fully. That's one good reason for this forum.

As Children and young teenagers, particularly boys, but not exclusively, we wanted to know every nook and cranny of our neighbourhood. During holidays we would explore places and Infrastructure, gullies, ally ways, empty buildings, bus garages, etc etc. And being generally nosey. We didn't mean any harm or do any damage. We just wanted to know what was what, especially if it presented a challenge or mild danger, its human nature. That enquiring instinct in us has lead to huge discoveries in science and nature and medicine. Not that I'm suggesting and great benefits ever came from following a brook or culvert. But it did allow us to discover, and see the district from a different angle. It's surprising how different roads and gardens look when trampling along the brook.
In one of the pitch-black tunnels along Warren Brook, our bike lamps picked up iron steps set Into the wall. Iv'e said before, but my pal couldn't resist. He climbed up and managed to pop a manhole cover. As he stuck his head out grinning, an elderly lady fiercely beat him back down like he was a wild animal.
To be fair to the old dear, she might have seen this before and was fed up of small boys popping up in her back yard. Or, the sight of a boy suddenly popping up frightened her and decided to attack before he could rob her gas meter; a common crime in those days. We soon moved on.
Eventually we got to end. We saw a life buoy mounted on a white post and thought we'd reached the seaside. It was if fact, Witton Lakes, a long way from home.
Going the other way along Hurlingham Road, Warren brook, led to another black tunnel, the entrance hevily overgrown, under Crayford Road. For some reason, unlike Eric, we got scared and didn't go very far.
 
Well, all of this talk about streams and brooks ha jogged my memory. I now do recall Erdington Brook. It ran through the fields off Spring Road, Erdington where the wooden huts were.

It came out of a concrete pipe about 4ft diameter from under the houses on Spring Lane.

I had a walk un the tunnel once with a candle and fell over about 50 yards from the entrance. I was absolutely covered on green slime.
 
I've really enjoyed this thread and it has sparked up some long forgotten memories.
However, another thing loosely connected with Brooks and streams is the sewers. (Sorry, I couldn't find another thread on street furniture so please move it if need be).

Something long gone from our streets are the green "stink pipes".
I came across a site covering such items in London and it had great photos of "Stink pipes".

You might remember those tall, green pipes. They were much taller than the houses probably fifty feet.
We had one or two in Cranbourne road. The one by our house had a rather ornate cast iron base with a leaf pattern. Half way up was a joint with roses cast into it.
On top was a spiked crown.
The kids in the street would annoy the adults by banging stones against it making a loud ringing noise.
One day I noticed the crown had gone, and it has been replaced with a ball of netting.
Being only about 6 or 7 years old I asked one of the older lads what had happened to the top of the stink pipe. He gave an answer: "Ah, well you see, a large bird landed on it. The spikes stuck in its belly, and it flew off taking the crown with it."
That gave me nightmares thinking something like an ostrich was flying around with the crown stuck in it.
 
The stink Poles became redundant with changes to building regulations. Every household now has to have its own stink pole or Soil and Vent Pipe (SVP) as it is now called.

There were a couple of sewer gas destructor lamps, one on the island at the bottom of Station Road and another on the island at the junction of Gravelly Land, Chester Road and Boldmere Road. Both lamps and islands have now gone.

There was the also the Tame and Rea Drainage Board sewerage farm off Tyburn Road, the site of Gravelly Industrial Park. We used to play on the trains as kids.
 
Well that answers a question for me.
Where I now live in Towcester, Northants , the previous occupants of my house removed the stink pipe and fitted an air admittance Durgo valve instead, which rattles when you flush the loo. Apparently it's there to allow air in, rather than let stink out.
 
Yes, I think there are other documents supporting the Chad Valley connection. The logo with the valley and the brook must have been what it looked like in the very early days of the business / factory!
 
In and around the Small Heath area Spark Brook and Sparkhill Brook which I believe is partially covered/ culverted the feed in to the River Cole , similar gong toward towards Yardley you have Yardley and Flaxley Brook which also feed the River Cole.
I remember these from a geography project we did at school for the rivers of Birmingham the Rea and Cole. We walked the locations i the 60’s as part of a field trip.
 
Green Genes said:
Yes, I think there are other documents supporting the Chad Valley connection. The logo with the valley and the brook must have been what it looked like in the very early days of the business / factory!
Click to expand...
I believe one of the sites for Chad Valley Toys was right next to Harborne Station in Station Road - somewhere on the internet there are photos of all the materials sitting very close to the platforms. It mentions the Harborne site in this article: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/nostalgia/gallery/factory-floor-chad-valley-1960s-23395008
 
KevNuneaton said:
I believe one of the sites for Chad Valley Toys was right next to Harborne Station in Station Road - somewhere on the internet there are photos of all the materials sitting very close to the platforms. It mentions the Harborne site in this article: https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/nostalgia/gallery/factory-floor-chad-valley-1960s-23395008
Click to expand...
Try post 19 on this thread - https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/chad-valley-toy-company-ltd-harborne.12918/ - scroll down to pic chad _ 003.

Bill
 
Pedrocut said:
Thimblemill Brook rising in Smethwick and flowed 3miles to join Hockley Brook. £750,000 plan to culvert entire length in 1965.
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Thimblemill Brook is now the name of a nature reserve based on Thimblemill Pool at the junction of Norman Road and Thimblemill Lane. It used to be the GKN recreation ground. I see now part of the brook remains unculverted in Stanhope Road, Valley Rd and Broadmore Avenue. But I had no idea that the brook stretched for 3 miles.
 
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