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Rivers : Forgotten Streams or Brooks of Birmingham

This is Bill Dargue’s suggestion :

A location shown on the 1890 Ordnance Survey map below Upper Witton Lakes where Gipsy Lane meets Marsh Hill. The brook is Hawthorn Brook which rises on the high ground west of Sutton Park and runs down to Witton and Brookvale Lakes before joining the River Tame near Spaghetti Junction.

Viv.
 
Ah, that may explain it. The spring in Finchely Park may have drained from what was known as Welshmans Hill.
 
As I said, “I am not sure if it’s the same as the one that feed Witton Lakes.” I have never been able to find the name of the Witton Lakes Feed so this may confirm it, or not.

What I am unable to reconcile is The Birmingham Waterworks Company presented a bill to Parliament in 1821 to extract water from the Tame and Hawthorn Brook. It then goes on the say that the Hawthorn Brook was never used.

This effectively would have mad ethe Witton Lakes system redundant, yet we know that it was used up until the commissioning of the Elan Valley scheme. It in the back of my head somewhere that there may be another Hawthorn brook.

I remember that there was a problem with Hawthorn Brook, but can't find it at the moment.
 
Google quoted in Post 21....Streams are fast flowing water bodies that originate in mountains because of rain water or melting glaciers.

By this definition can anyone find a stream in Birmingham ?
 
I remember that there was a problem with Hawthorn Brook, but can't find it at the moment.

I thought there was a pollution incident, but cannot remember where I read this. Maybe they sorted it it quite a decent source of water
 
Hi,

Rivers always finally output to the sea, so although they don't necessarily reach the sea
themselves, they join other rivers that do. So locally the Rivers Blythe and Cole and Tame
don't reach the sea themselves, but the Blythe and Cole join the Tame, which joins the Trent,
which joins the Ouse, which reaches the sea at the Humber estuary.

BUT, why then is the Kingshurst Brook not called a river, as it joins the Cole. Is it just a
question of size?

Anyone who knows the River Eype in Dorset would know that it is infinitely smaller than the
Kingshurst Brook, - in fact I took a photo of my missus straddling the mouth of the Eype.

Mind you, it wasn't in spate at the time, which is about the only occasion when it manages
to cross the beach to the English Channel !

Kind regards
Dave
 
There is a little about Hawthorn Brook and the proposal for the Witton Reservoirs on the thread below.

Also mentioned is Perry Brook...
 
I do actually know the River Eype quite Well. There a house made from a railway carriages that belonged to the chap off the Antiques Road show just up the road form the beach.
 
Pedro,

On the definition of a stream, surely it is also reasonable to say that water that orignates from a spring, as many of them do, also becomes a stream before it is joined by other tributaries to become a river.

The difference a stream or is a brook is probably more difficult to define, but when I was young, a brook was just a stream that had enclarged, but not become big enough to be a river. :)

Maurice :cool:
 
There is a little about Hawthorn Brook and the proposal for the Witton Reservoirs on the thread below.

Also mentioned is Perry Brook...

I wonder if the Perry Brook is the one from Kings Vale and Lodge Pool?

My dad told me how he swam in the Swimming Bath that was on the brook between Witton Lodge Farm and St Marys College.

It would also be nice to know the name of the brook that ran form Station Road Erdington too.
 
Pedro,

On the definition of a stream, surely it is also reasonable to say that water that orignates from a spring, as many of them do, also becomes a stream before it is joined by other tributaries to become a river.

The difference a stream or is a brook is probably more difficult to define, but when I was young, a brook was just a stream that had enclarged, but not become big enough to be a river. :)

Maurice :cool:

One definition I heard was it ceases to be a brook when you cannot step over it.
 
The definition is from a Wiki source so can't be trusted.

Webster's dictionary says a brook is a small stream, so really in everyday language you could say that Hawthorn Brook was a stream running to Witton Lakes
 
I wonder if the Perry Brook is the one from Kings Vale and Lodge Pool?

My dad told me how he swam in the Swimming Bath that was on the brook between Witton Lodge Farm and St Marys College.

It would also be nice to know the name of the brook that ran form Station Road Erdington too.

Just looking at the 1880's map and Perry Brook seems to join the Tame just after the Church Tavern, but doesn't seem to extend back to Lodge Pool.
The stream from Lodge Pool looks to go the other way and down to Witton Lakes.
 
Right, so it may be the brook that runs from Great Barr Park, into Perry Barr Park then inot the River Tame?
 
I had always thought that the Hawthorne Brook which was suggested as a water source was the stream shown in red on the c1889 map below

Map c1889 showing suggested Hawthorne Brook.jpg

Certainly according to this ( from http://industrialrivertame.blogspot.com/2014/11/salford-bridge.html) the Hawthorne Brook entered the Tame a lot further down than Witton Lakes:
The present site of Salford Bridge is very near to an ancient crossing. According to William Fowler, writing in 1883, 'the ancient ford and bridge were situate about fifty yards higher up the stream than the present bridge and a very short distance above the old bridge'.* This is where Hawthorne Brook used to come into the Tame, now lost underground it can be spotted briefly along the Tame Valley Canal. The area here was good ground for a crossing point due to its gravelly nature (hence Gravelly Hill nearby). The name itself was originally Scaford or Scraford, the word scraet meaning cave; near to the original crossing there were caves formed in the sandstone rock, probably either by the river or by Hawthorne Brook. First mentioned in the 1400s, Fowler notes that the caves were 'known as the Dwarf holes, [and] are marked and so described on many ancient maps.'*

But it does seem there were two with that name
 
Not sure how relevant this is but:
John Morris Jones was a headmaster of George Dixon Junior School in west Birmingham from 1960 to 1980. He wrote extensively about the local history of the South Birmingham area, particularly Yardley, Hall Green and Sarehole.

On one of the many maps he drew of the Yardley (based on the boundaries of Yardley in 972) area he lists the following:

1605050013622.png
 
Hawthorn Brook seems to have its source somewhere near Powell's Pool in Sutton Park ? It runs to the Upper Witton Reservoir, on to the Lower Reservoir and then down to join the Tame at Salford Bridge.

Ok, did you find a map?
 
It covers a biggish area, but following the arrows there is a stream leading downstream from somewhere near King's Vale to Lodge Pool, then on to Pumping station at Upper Witton Pools, and meeting the the Tame at Salford Bridge. I will try to piece one together.
 
Pedro,

On the definition of a stream, surely it is also reasonable to say that water that orignates from a spring, as many of them do, also becomes a stream before it is joined by other tributaries to become a river.

The difference a stream or is a brook is probably more difficult to define, but when I was young, a brook was just a stream that had enclarged, but not become big enough to be a river. :)

Maurice :cool:
wow!! our maurice very well put:grinning:
 
If you haven’t already seen these, the maps below from a paper by Peter King may be of interest in looking at the brooks, streams and pools in the Perry Barr area. These are considered in relation to the various mills around that were once in the area.

Viv.
 

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I wonder if the Perry Brook is the one from Kings Vale and Lodge Pool?

My dad told me how he swam in the Swimming Bath that was on the brook between Witton Lodge Farm and St Marys College.

It would also be nice to know the name of the brook that ran form Station Road Erdington too.

79B036D7-CD6E-418F-BE99-E04BD2AD4D60.jpeg
 
If you haven’t already seen these, the maps below from a paper by Peter King may be of interest in looking at the brooks, streams and pools in the Perry Barr area. These are considered in relation to the various mills around that were once in the area.

Viv.
Map 2, what was a blade mill?
Bob
 
In the 1940s to 1960s every kid in the Great Barr/Perry Beeches area knew about and played around the 'Brook' which rose from a spring in the grounds of St Margarets Hospital. On the map below it is highlighted in blue running through Perry Beeches under the Tame Valley Canal into Perry Barr Park reservoir. From there is went under Church Road running into the River Tame near the Zig Zag bridge. We built dams on the brook, caught 'tiddlers' in it, played 'Poo sticks', jumped it and fell in, it was a big part of our young lives. I never knew whether it had an official name.

Today, parts of it run in a pipe under the M6 and it has been diverted in other places. The only people who know about it these days are those who live near the diversions suffering occasional flooding.
Brook1950.jpg
 
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