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Birmingham Steam Buses 1824-1910.

Not sure whether this qualifies as first or second generation steam coaches and probably has no Midlands connection. Built in 1875 this is a Grenville steam carriage and appears to have been still active c.1950's from the attire of the passengers and crowds watching it pass (Possibly on a VCC London to Brighton run?). Wheel formation is in the Church tradition. Note the uniformed chap with his back to the boiler is a mounted policeman on crowd control.
 
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[Gentlemen, you're all doing commendable work! The ladies, on the other hand, appear to have left us. (No doubt mumbling something along the lines of "Boys and their toys!")]

Looking at the LTM version of "Allen Mark 2" (post #237), it suddenly occurred to me that our beloved Dr William Church is the inventor of the "garden seat" double-decker, almost 50 years before its "official" invention by one Captain Molesworth (I kid you not!), and introduction by the London Road Car Co Ltd in 1881. The "garden seat" design was so popular that it was almost universal by 1890. Is there no end to the genius of "The Doctor"? He obviously was a time traveller! ;)

[Molesworth, sorry to put a dent in the reputation of your illustrious (if elusive) ancestor "The Captain". But Dr Church came up with many ideas that were ahead of their time, such as "springy wheels" for which the time has still not arrived! Seriously though, I can't find anything about Captain Molesworth, alleged inventor of the "garden seat". Is there anything in the family archives?]

 
... Built in 1875 this is a Grenville steam carriage and appears to have been still active c.1950's ...

Thanks, Motorman, for that new picture of the "Grenville", which we came across before on MRED (post #769), and which now lives at the National Motor Museum. A remarkable surviving "inter-generational" steam carriage.

[Where have the gurls gone? ;)]
 
A bit off-topic, in that its in Bonnie Scotland — How about this NEW FAVOURITE? Did it ever become an OLD FAVOURITE, I wonder?
Petr
 
Welcome to the BSB classroom, Peter W. I'm sure you will enjoy yourself here, and your knowledge and research skills will be very useful. And thanks for the picture of the Scottish "New Favorite". (I thought that was just the French spelling, but it seems to have been the English form too in the early nineteenth century.)

[I don't suppose you passed any ladies on your way here? ;)]
 
Call For BSB Index Volunteer.

We have also seen the "New Favorite" before: see MRED posts #778-780. There's so much steam bus information on the BSB (and MRED) threads that someone should probably prepare a BSB index. (Everyone takes one step backwards, leaving Phineas Thylacine looking lumbered, and sheepish! ;)).
 
And Peter W, don't worry about being off topic! :) All (road) steamers are welcome in the BSB classroom. It's just that some (i e Birmingham ones, or even Midlands ones) are more welcome than others.
 
[Molesworth, sorry to put a dent in the reputation of your illustrious (if elusive) ancestor "The Captain". But Dr Church came up with many ideas that were ahead of their time, such as "springy wheels" for which the time has still not yet arrived! Seriously though, I can't find anything about Captain Molesworth, alleged inventor of the "garden seat". Is there anything in the family archives?

Ah, ahem, you mean Captain Molesworth RN, chairman of the Royal Aquarium Westminster (that elevated place of ill-repute - I'd do a treatise on it but a bit out of place on this forum), a director of GWR and inventor and patentee of the Horse Omnibus with special attention to garden seating and braking each wheel independently with the knee. Built by the Bristol Wagon Works for LGOC:

* The Bristol Mercury and Daily Post (Bristol, England), Thursday, January 6, 1881

...oh Captain, my Captain
 
In trying to trace your Captain, Molesworth, all I could find in the 1881 census was a Commander George M. F. Molesworth RNIS, age 55, of North Down House, Bideford, Devon. (The house is now part of Kingsley School).
Searching the patents library with the name 'Molesworth' came up with many clever ideas, ranging from whalebone corset covers to self-propelled flying machines, but no buses or garden seats. Searching under 'Bristol Wagon and Carriage' however, gives amongst others the patent for carriage steering illustrated below, which largely follows the newspaper description of the horse bus.
I bow in deference to your ancestry, Moleworth - I really thought you were "extracting the urine"!
 
Oh arr thanks to Molesworth we be now Ship Shape and Bristol Fashion, Tiz amazin how one post leads to another. Mention of the Bristol Wagon Works is a useful excuse to give the company it's full title of the Bristol Wagon & Carriage Co, founded by a Mr Albert Fry, Quaker and relative of Mr J.S. Fry who founded the famous Bristol chocolate company which was bought out by - yes, Birmingham chocolate maker Cadburys. This provides a Midland link of a sort to this thread because the B.W & C.Co. was set up to build horse drawn carts and farm wagons but went on to build steam wagons at their Bristol factory, as seen below. The Bristol steam wagons are in no way related to Bristol buses built by the Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co. Ltd, these being totally seperate firms although by coincidence the B.T. & C.C. bought the B.W & C.C factory at Laurence Hill, Bristol when the latter ceased trading in the 1920's.
 
...I bow in deference to your ancestry, Moleworth - I really thought you were "extracting the urine"!

Moi??? :steamingpile:

Managing a giant brothel outside the HofP, inventing woman's undergarments and whiz-bang treen flyers as well as turning his hand to garden seating on frankly dangerous looking jack-knifeable horse Buses where it takes two pairs of knees to brake, then it can only be - step forward Capn Molesworth Snr JP. Thanks for the info Lloyd.

And excellent route back via detailed company genealogy with great pics - Thanks Motorman

And to conclude by continuing the excellent Church conversion of Thylacine (we'll make an acolyte of you yet...) - I hope you will point out to Michelin that the good Dr holds the patent for springy wheels and that all "surplice" (thinks - must stop reading C19th comic books) profits of it's "Tweel" and such like should be passed to his fanboys - consider it a penance for your previous errant thoughts
 
Wow - I could do with one of them to get to the Sea when I go to Weston - the further out you go the juicier the Razors are....
 
Hmm, yes Lloyd, also lacks good seating and is too labour intensive for any profitable payload I would have thought :)
 
[Good (Tassie) morning, class! I am enjoying your latest contributions, which cover many wondrous objects and the serendipitous connections amongst them. As the good book (or one of them) says: "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the sun" (Ecclesiastes i 8, but courtesy of The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (London: The Reprint Society, 1966)). And it seems that every "new thing" was first thought of by "The Doctor", who re-appears in history as "The Captain" (Molesworth's great great ... great uncle). For those with eyes like mine, here's the text of the Bristol Mercury article (6 January 1881) which establishes that there was more to "The Captain" that mere garden seats:]
A NEW OMNIBUS AT THE WAGON WORKS.

A revolution in the system of street passenger traffic is promised by the introduction of a vehicle possessing the advantages of a tramway car, and available for narrow and crowded streets, where tram lines would be absolutely unworkable. We refer to the new horse car which has been built by the Bristol Wagon Works Company, at their extensive shops at Lawrence Hill, for the inventor and patentee, Captain Molesworth, R N, chairman of the Royal Aquarium, Westminster, and one of the directors of the Great Western Railway Company. This car is one of a number which have been ordered for the London General Omnibus Company, and the fact of our enterprising local company having been selected to execute the first order — indeed, to build the first specimen ever made upon the principle of the patent — is a gratifying evidence of the high estimation in which the work turned out by them is held. The chief point of difference between the 'buses at present in use and those designed by Captain Molesworth is that the latter is supported on two wheels only, with a crank axle, having two strong springs on each side. The wheels are five feet in diameter, and not only is greater facility of running obtained by the adoption of this principle, but the vehicle itself is brought much nearer to the ground than usual, passengers being thereby enabled to step easily and safely from the pavement on a platform ranging alongside and at the same height as the curb stone, from which platform a single low step places them at once upon the level of the carriage floor. An additional great advantage derived from the use of two wheels only is that when in motion, no matter how uneven and rough the ground may be, or how the load may be distributed, the car glides on with a gentle, undulating movement most enjoyable when compared with the pitching and vibration experienced in ordinary 'buses. It is also found that by the particular application of the draught in these patent cars the horses are relieved almost entirely from the strain experienced in starting other conveyances. In speaking of two wheels only, we allude merely to the support for the carriage; in front, and serving as a kind of foundation on which to erect the driver's seat, are two very much smaller wheels, which working in a light framework of metal, impart extreme freedom in turning. The driving-box is raised above these wheels in such a height as to give the coachman full command over his horses, and to remove him entirely from the possibility of interference on the part of anyone, and yet so that the conductor, standing on the entrance platform immediately behind and beneath, can have instant communication with him in case of need. By the side of the box a convenient set of iron steps leads to the roof of the vehicle. In the first car experimented upon the roof-seats run the lengthway of the carriage, but the inventor has subsequently devised what he considers will be a great improvement, namely, that of fixing rows of a kind of garden seats from side to side across the roof, the occupants being thus brought to face the direction in which they are proceeding. There will be rows of two such seats on either side, with a convenient passage down the middle, so that passengers will be able to take or vacate their places with the least possible disturbance of their neighbours. Ample protection against all danger of falling is provided. Strong handles are so fixed in various places as to give every security on entering or quitting the car, and, while there is very adequate protection from the weather, there is in addition perfect ventilation. Firmly fastened hand-rods afford steadiness in walking to and fro, even when travelling at the most rapid rate, and the roof-seat being made hollow, an amount of head room is gained which, added to the extra height obtained by the lowering of the floor, is particularly healthful. The carriage itself is extremely comfortable and commodious, abundance of walking room being provided, while, as the upper pannelling all around is glazed, the occupants can enjoy an uninterrupted view on every side. There is ample seating for twenty-eight persons, and yet, so well considered have been the arrangements that the whole weight of the car is only about twenty-three hundredweight. By means of an ingenious invention, patented by the Wagon Works Company, especially for use on these cars, the driver can, by a mere motion of his knee, completely drag one of the large wheels; the conductor has a similar power over the other. Thus either of them is able to apply the drag independently; when he does so, for whatever purpose, his comrade follows his example, and both wheels are almost simultaneously dead locked. The horses, with that intelligence for which they are so remarkable, will commence to stop the instant they feel the pressure, and the vehicle will consequently be brought to a standstill in an extraordinarily short space of time. Satisfactory trial trips have recently been made in this city. On one occasion there were twenty-seven passengers, including the inventor (Captain Molesworth), Mr Albert Fry (managing director of the works), Mr Margetson (the manager), and some gentlemen interested in vehicular traffic, all of whom agreed in expressions of admiration concerning the comfort and ease with which they were conveyed. Several of the passengers alighted on the pavement and retook their seats without the slightest difficulty while the car was going at full speed, and the lightness with which it ran may be judged from the fact that, notwithstanding the heavy load, the one pair of horses attached — two ordinary 'bus animals, chosen of moderate quality for the purpose of the trial — took it over the steep pitch from St Augustine's Parade into College Green at a very fast rate, without the least distress, in fact, with a tight rein. Opposite the Council House, which is the narrowest part of Corn Street, the car was made to describe two circles, and on each occasion the turn was effected in less than twice its length. The trial was in every way highly successful, and sufficient practical knowledge obtained to advise the decreasing and lightening of the two front wheels and framework attached to such an extent that justifies the anticipation that when fairly placed in use a complete turn will be able to be effected in not more than the length of the vehicle. The staunchest friends of the tramway movement must welcome this new vehicle, as enabling the companies to work districts which, for various reasons, are unlikely to be reached by their lines for some time to come.​
[Yes, I know it's off-topic, but it's quite short (for me!), and we are all interested, aren't we? As to the identity of the elusive Captain (it seems that once you become a sea captain, your forenames are surgically removed and replaced with the generic "Captain"; who remembers Captain Hook's first name?): Lloyd's West Country worthy George Mills Frederick Molesworth (14 September 1825 - 11 November 1913) must surely be a contender, yet there is no mention of the Royal Aquarium, the Great Western Railway, or the "garden seat" bus that relates to him. The search continues ... Anyway, back to tweels and pedrails. See you later! ;)]
 
Re: New Church Steamer Picture.

... It actually looks more like a painting than an engraving and I wonder if it is the original image from which the engraving was taken "after" ...

Which would make it perhaps the orginal painting by the elusive John Cooke (or whatever his name is). That would be quite a find! :cool:
 
... founded by a Mr Albert Fry, Quaker and relative of Mr J.S. Fry who founded the famous Bristol chocolate company which was bought out by - yes, Birmingham chocolate maker Cadburys ...

I wonder what it was about Midlands Quakers (we can include Bristol in the "Greater Midlands", can't we?) that made them such great industrialists? (The Tangyes were also Quakers). Or what it was about Midlands industrialists that made them such devout Quakers? Something to do with that "inner light"? :rolleyes:
 
Commander G M F Molesworth.

The London Gazette (1 April 1870) confirms that George Mills Frederick Molesworth (GMFM), having risen to the rank of Lieutenant, was permitted to retire from the Royal Navy with the assumed rank of Retired Commander (not Captain!). And there is a railway connection: GMFM was one of the movers and shakers behind the Bideford, Appledore and Westward Ho! Railway Co (BA&WHR), which was incorporated by Act of Parliament in 1866 (29 & 30 Victoria c ccxxiv). BA&WHR did not survive much later than 1868, and not much was accomplished. But thirty years later (21 May 1896) the Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore Railway Act 1896 (59 & 60 Victoria c xviii) received Royal Assent, establishing the Bideford, Westward Ho! and Appledore Railway Co (BWH&AR). This company was famous for two things: [1] being the only railway company in Britain (and possibly the world) whose name contained an exclamation mark; [2] operating the only standard gauge railway in Britain which was never connected to the rest of the system. The BWH&AR opened on 24 April 1901 and closed on 28 March 1917, when everything but the carriages was commandeered by the War Office. Incidentally, the carriages were built by the Bristol Carriage and Wagon Works Co. I'm not certain of GMFM's involvement with BWH&AR, but one source claims that he was Chairman of the company (perhaps rather of the earlier BA&WHR).

So we have a railway connection, and in the Great Western region. But still fairly tenuous evidence that GMFM is our Captain Molesworth of "garden seat omnibus" (and Royal Aquarium) fame.

[Sources: Wikipedia (a remarkably detailed account, which however barely mentions Molesworth), Rail Album, englishrail blog. I bet you can't find a movie of this railway, Lloyd! Pictured is one of the BWH&AR locomotives. I hereby give myself a hundred lines: "Phineas Thylacine must not post pictures of railway locomotives in the BSB classroom". Molesworth, can I borrow the Molesworth-Peason lines machine please? ;)]
 
Captain Moleswoth Addresses the Balloonists.

And here's a Kiwi report of "Captain Molesworth R N" giving a lecture at the Royal Aquarium in 1883 on the "Jordan Canal Scheme". The occasion was a meeting of the Balloon Society of Great Britain (nothing surprises me about the range of interests of "The Captain" ;)).
 
...Yes, I know it's off-topic, but it's quite short (for me!), and we are all interested, aren't we? As to the identity of the elusive Captain (it seems that once you become a sea captain, your forenames are surgically removed and replaced with the generic "Captain"; who remembers Captain Hook's first name?): Lloyd's West Country worthy George Mills Frederick Molesworth (14 September 1825 - 11 November 1913) must surely be a contender, yet there is no mention of the Royal Aquarium, the Great Western Railway, or the "garden seat" bus that relates to him. The search continues ... Anyway, back to tweels and pedrails. See you later! ;)

I agree slightly annoying, here is what can see so far if it is our boy:

Baptized: 12 Oct 1825 in Millbrook, Hampshire, parents - John Edward Nassan & Harriet Molesworth
https://pilot.familysearch.org/reco...=recordimage&c=fs:1473014&r=r_864399293&pn=p1

Marries: Sarah Newhall in Sep 1851 in Rochdale

1861C: Lieut RN half pay Magistrate Devon & Lancashire with wife Sarah & children Reginald, George, Arthur & Mary in Bideford on The Strand

1871C: Migistrate Lancaster & Devon COmmander RN retired with Sarah, Reginald & Mary in North Devon House on The Strand (assume same place)

1881C: Commander RN JP Devon & Lancaster with Reginald in North Devon House on The Strand

1891C: Retired Commander R Navy - Hotel Metropole Visitor in St Martins-in-the-field area of London - suggestive! [born Southampton]
1891C: Retired Captain RN (Navy Officer) in Royal Hotel Bideford Devon - seems we have an intriguing case of 2 Captain Molesworths!!! [born Rochdale]

1901C: Commander Royal Navy Navy Officer - in lodge house Northam Westward Ho! - Seems respectable place with priest and solicitor also residing

Findmypast shows some GWR shareholders, although nothing obvious & I don't have access

As you say, nothing that indicates the radical creative heart that beats within...
 
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Interesting - he is shown in both the Lancashire (Rochdale) & Devonshire (Bideford) directories, and in the 1905 Lancashire directory as living in Bideford so he was magistrate at opposite ends of England.

Need a little help with the double 1891 Census though - my theory is it is the same man that was questioned in London in the hotel over breakfast, got on a train and was captured in the Hotel in Bideford - is that possible? Perhaps he is a "Doctor" too...
 
As I wends my merry way through this overwhelming thread and we are passsing through my place of birth, the West Country (Bristol in the Greater Midlands - how dare you Sir? God speed the plough and beware a jab in the rear from the Bristolian unicorn for such utterances) I have unearthed another steam wagon maufacturer, E.S. Hindley & Sons of Bourton, Dorset. From an advert of theirs comes this picture (which might almost qualify as a bus pic) with a caption that no doubt would not be P.C. today I fear. In truth who knows, a descedant of the driver or his passengers may well reside in Birmingham now so there might be a Midland connection to this steamer after all.
 
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... the West Country (Bristol in the Greater Midlands - how dare you Sir? God speed the plough and beware a jab in the rear from the Bristolian unicorn for such utterances) ...

Er ... sorry, Motorman, I was getting carried away there :blush:. Bristol is definitely Wessex, not Mercia! I wouldn't want King Alfred coming after me. (Another hundred lines, Thylacine: "I must not be a Mercian expansionist". Now where's that Molesworth-Peason?)
 
... steam wagon maufacturer, E.S. Hindley & Sons of Bourton, Dorset. From an advert of theirs comes this picture (which might almost qualify as a bus pic) ...

Yes, Motorman, that is surely a Hindley steam double-deck lorry-bus on service in India.

Just to make up for my "Bristol blunder" :blush:, here are some links concerning Wessex steam man Edmund Samuel Hindley of Bourton, Dorset: from the directories; Grace's Guide (no mention of wagons); Finding the Next Model (very interesting; with a picture of a surviving Hindley steam wagon undergoing restoration). I'm not sure of the origin of E S Hindley's company, but they appear to have built water wheels in the early days. E S Hindley and Sons sold out to Dodmans of Kings Lynn in the 1920s.

[Pictured below are: [1] the maker's mark from a surviving Hindley stationary engine; [2] an 1897 Hindley advertisement.]
 
... You want film of the line? Well, sorry no - only this.

Thanks, Penfold, for that lovely piece of BWH&AR animation (you almost win the bet! ;)). I watched it again just for the music! I'm sure the topography is accurate, but I don't think saddle tank locomotive "Invincible" ever served on the BWH&AR.

["Invincible": Hawthorn Leslie 0-4-0T built 1915 for Woolwich Arsenal (London); passed to RAF (Farnborough) 1955; withdrawn 1968; passed to Isle of Wight Steam Railway for restoration and preservation 1971. (I never knew before that the RAF operated a railway!)]
 
Back to the Midlands.

OK, class, we've had a lot of fun, but can we please get back to the Midlands (minus Bristol!) and find some more SGSBs (for example, a picture of the 1901 Potteries steam bus would be very nice). Or indeed FGSBs (I want us to do for the Heaton Brothers the same in-depth research as we have so successfully done for The Doctor, but let me first prepare a chronology summarizing what we already know, as a basis for further investigations: more to come). Or even IGSBs ("inter-generational" steam buses, from the period 1865-1896, of which we have already found quite a number of examples).

[We must beware of a classroom visit by the BHF School Governors! Or Headmaster GRIMES (shudder!). ;)]
 
Thank you for those links Sir and just to cheer you up how about this 1917 view of a side fired 5 ton steam wagon built by Mann's Patent Steam Cart & Wagon Co. Ltd. of Hunslet, Leeds. Given the First World War was well in progress there was probably a shortage of motor charabancs so G. W. Leggott & Son were obviously filling the gap in Manchester. I like to think the happy travellers were setting off for Birmingham-on-Sea but at 8mph I think Blackpool was a more likely destination.
 
Motorman, that's a splendid (and big!) picture of Leggotts steam wagon number 8 towing a charabanc trailer! And is that another life-buoy (behind the presumed driver in the flat cap)? Despite my "Back to the Midlands" lecture, pictures like this are always welcome! [Mmm! Steam charabanc ... :hoteyes:]
 
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