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Birmingham Steam Buses 1824-1910.
Thylacine
master brummie
And here is an e-text of Elijah Galloway's History and Progress of the Steam Engine (London: Thomas Kelly, 1836) with additions by Luke Hebert. Page n759 describes "Patent Improvements in Steam Engines, by W Church of Birmingham 1829"; page n869 lists an 1818 patent by "William Church, London" for "certain improvements"; page n873 lists an 1829 patent by "W Church, Birmingham" for "propelling vessels" and an 1830 patent by "W Church, Birmingham" for "propelling and evaporation".
[The 1818 listing is an interesting early reference to Dr Church. A word of warning re archive.org e-texts: a search on "Church" failed to find some of these references.]
[The 1818 listing is an interesting early reference to Dr Church. A word of warning re archive.org e-texts: a search on "Church" failed to find some of these references.]
Lloyd
master brummie
It is sad to think that if these early pioneers had been encouraged in their efforts rather than thwarted by road and horse owners, then mechanised transportation of the public by road could have come much sooner than it actually did.
Not that I'm suggesting anything, of course....
Not that I'm suggesting anything, of course....
Thylacine
master brummie
Brilliant "what might have been" picture, Penfold! Colour it red and we'll order a dozen of them! 
Aidan
master brummie
Here's the IMechE website. Their "Heaton" drawings should be in their library or archive. Someone (not mentioning any names, Molesworth!.[/SIZE][/FONT]
Sigh (thinks: rather roll out the lines machine again) - I can't see it in the archive catalogue https://www.imeche.org/library/catalogue.htm but have sent a speculative enquiry. They do have a picture gallery with an intimate pic of a Hall-Lewis station bus, rear view if that is not too far off topic https://picturegallery.imeche.org/ViewLarger.aspx?PID=9&RAID=2
1818 is a very early ref for Church, I think most refs until now have suggested mid 1820s for his entry to the UK.
Lloyd - I like the comic cartoon and the stretch Midland carriage is pure magic - surely one for a night out party down Broad St should we ever get together.
Thylacine
master brummie
Thylacine
master brummie
Yes, and in London. The Doctor patented his typesetting machine (in England) in 1822 while still a US resident, and is said to have moved to Birmingham some time afterwards. Possibilites: [1] NOT our Doctor (though the steam reference is suggestive); [2] another English patent obtained while still a US resident.
Aidan
master brummie
Brilliant "what might have been" picture, Penfold! Colour it red and we'll order a dozen of them!
I had to look several times at this pic then put my "special" glasses on (ie upend a couple of pints)...
I also attach the frontispiece to the 1849 encyclopaedia Vol.1 as I love the symbolism and I would have proposed it as a frontispiece for this thread had it been a steam omnibus rather than locomotive in the background.
Aidan
master brummie
Church bulletin: https://www.hmfletcher.co.uk/images/Edinburgh Exhib.pdf exhibit 41 seems to refer to a(nother?) painting of the venerable machine. Also the notes contain some new info I think: "...The seemingly cumbersome bodywork of this carriage was in fact quite light for it consisted of a light rigid frame constructed on geodetic principles covered by a thin skin (What the motor coachbuilder of the 1920’s would have called the “Weymann” method. The wheels had sprung spokes and elastic rims that bent into flatted curves as they came into contact with the ground (The equivalent of the modern off-roader running on soft tyres)... This painting came from Mr. Gates at Ackermann’s who bought it in America in 1980’s"
Stoking up the William Henry James path - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James_(railway_promoter) is a piece on his illustrious father with pictures of The Yew Trees in Henley of Arden (attached) of which he and therefore maybe his son is associated. He was educated at Warwick & Winson School. There is a body of opinion that he had been unjustly treated by history, and may have been unfairly usurped by George Stephenson (yet another one...). These snippets and reference to the patents that probably father and son worked on together is given here https://www.steamindex.com/people/james.htm I attach a very fine sketch from the Edinburgh Catalogue above that purports to be the James Omnibus of 1824. (Thylacine - are you sure the byelaw was about NOT playing a bugle while moving?)
And veering violently down uncharted waters: Found this on the Science & Society webgallery labelled "1840 General Steam Carriage Company of F. Hill" and it has a Birmingham to London (or bust..) on the side - any ideas? Believe it was one of the first english vehicle to use a differential and it covered 207 km in one day which was half the time of a horse carriage.
Stoking up the William Henry James path - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James_(railway_promoter) is a piece on his illustrious father with pictures of The Yew Trees in Henley of Arden (attached) of which he and therefore maybe his son is associated. He was educated at Warwick & Winson School. There is a body of opinion that he had been unjustly treated by history, and may have been unfairly usurped by George Stephenson (yet another one...). These snippets and reference to the patents that probably father and son worked on together is given here https://www.steamindex.com/people/james.htm I attach a very fine sketch from the Edinburgh Catalogue above that purports to be the James Omnibus of 1824. (Thylacine - are you sure the byelaw was about NOT playing a bugle while moving?)
And veering violently down uncharted waters: Found this on the Science & Society webgallery labelled "1840 General Steam Carriage Company of F. Hill" and it has a Birmingham to London (or bust..) on the side - any ideas? Believe it was one of the first english vehicle to use a differential and it covered 207 km in one day which was half the time of a horse carriage.
Lloyd
master brummie
Brilliant "what might have been" picture, Penfold! Colour it red and we'll order a dozen of them!
I think the 'coach' livery appropriate for this model, don't you?
I fear we must not stray too far from the subject in hand though, or the 'Master's discipline will ensnare us.
Aidan
master brummie
Briliant - oh oh - pleeeeeease can we have a Caption Competition....
My first go (bit geeky):
Master orders boy "write out 100 times 'the net heat supplied to the system equals the net work done by the system' - in Latin"
or
Boy Thinks "Whoever said that the entropy of an isolated macroscopic system never decreases had never asked The Master to expound on Birmingham Steam Buses"
or
Boy says "you call that an anorak - it's got a b***** tassle"
My first go (bit geeky):
Master orders boy "write out 100 times 'the net heat supplied to the system equals the net work done by the system' - in Latin"
or
Boy Thinks "Whoever said that the entropy of an isolated macroscopic system never decreases had never asked The Master to expound on Birmingham Steam Buses"
or
Boy says "you call that an anorak - it's got a b***** tassle"
motorman-mike
Brum visitor who stayed.
Is this the Market Hall kind Sir?, oh good, could you be so kind as to direct me to the junk stall and my young helpers will convey all this surplus steam apparatus there to raise a groat or two perchance.
Aidan
master brummie
You want ye Science Museum? Follow Ann Street round back of ye Panorama then take ye street towards the New Hall - can't miss it
Thylacine
master brummie
Good moaning, gentlemen (Tassie style)! Thanks for your recent work, which I am perusing over coffee. And Motorman, good to see you again! I hear you've been on holiday to Bohemia and Moravia (in search of our runaway womenfolk, no doubt!).
Penfold, I love your Midland Red 1830 Rawe-Boase-not-Heaton charabanc. That roof is retractable, isn't it? Not too sure about the six-legged horse though (seen at Windscale?).
Molesworth, good work with William Henry James et al. Good to see that WHJ's father is an honoured son of Henley-in-Arden (which is the stamping ground of Phineas Thylacine's paternal ancestors).
Penfold, I love your Midland Red 1830 Rawe-Boase-not-Heaton charabanc. That roof is retractable, isn't it? Not too sure about the six-legged horse though (seen at Windscale?).
Molesworth, good work with William Henry James et al. Good to see that WHJ's father is an honoured son of Henley-in-Arden (which is the stamping ground of Phineas Thylacine's paternal ancestors).
Lloyd
master brummie
No, that's VAL the six-legger from Bedford. You have to be a real Anorak to get that subtle one! Here's the answer if you can't.
Aidan
master brummie
Perhaps it is not a loco in the background but a steam Drag with extra carriages for a bit of outback work?
You may also be wondering the significance of a balloon in prominent position. I attach the Pictorial Times April 1843 edition of Henson's Aerial Steam Carriage Company and various pics of its flights including China in 24hours.
Another Caption entry: "The flight won't get far, he had these bits left over after the last rebuild"
You may also be wondering the significance of a balloon in prominent position. I attach the Pictorial Times April 1843 edition of Henson's Aerial Steam Carriage Company and various pics of its flights including China in 24hours.
Another Caption entry: "The flight won't get far, he had these bits left over after the last rebuild"
Thylacine
master brummie
Fletcher Catalogue: Great Find!
Molesworth, thanks for linking us to the beautifully illustrated and meticulously annotated catalogue of Keith Fletcher's mouth-watering collection of books, pictures and models. Steamjunk heaven! :hoteyes: For this excellent find, you are excused your later "flights of fancy".
"The Pre-history of the Motor Car 1550-1850" is recommended to all our readers. We should invite Mr Fletcher to be a visiting professor to the BSB classroom, so that we can all sit at his feet and drool over his hoard of wonders: sailing, manumotive and compressed-air carriages; the charlovant and the "lady's accelerator" (the mind boggles!); Johann Hautch's 17th century child-powered carriage complete with trumpet-blowing angels; "the aeroplustic art".
Fletcher's information on The Doctor is apposite to our recent discussion: born in Vermont in 1779; came to England in 1820; "after forty years in Birmingham he returned to Vermont where he died in 1863". I would love to see the "Church" painting he describes: I wonder if he could supply a photograph? Otherwise an expedition to Edinburgh is called for: we'll go in Penfold's Rawe-Boase-not-Heaton chara!
Molesworth, thanks for linking us to the beautifully illustrated and meticulously annotated catalogue of Keith Fletcher's mouth-watering collection of books, pictures and models. Steamjunk heaven! :hoteyes: For this excellent find, you are excused your later "flights of fancy".
"The Pre-history of the Motor Car 1550-1850" is recommended to all our readers. We should invite Mr Fletcher to be a visiting professor to the BSB classroom, so that we can all sit at his feet and drool over his hoard of wonders: sailing, manumotive and compressed-air carriages; the charlovant and the "lady's accelerator" (the mind boggles!); Johann Hautch's 17th century child-powered carriage complete with trumpet-blowing angels; "the aeroplustic art".
Fletcher's information on The Doctor is apposite to our recent discussion: born in Vermont in 1779; came to England in 1820; "after forty years in Birmingham he returned to Vermont where he died in 1863". I would love to see the "Church" painting he describes: I wonder if he could supply a photograph? Otherwise an expedition to Edinburgh is called for: we'll go in Penfold's Rawe-Boase-not-Heaton chara!
Thylacine
master brummie
Approach to "Professor" Fletcher.
I have e-mailed Keith Fletcher (proprietor of H M Fletcher bookseller of Wynches Barn, Much Hadham, Hertfordshire), asking if he might (pretty please!) donate to the BSB classroom a photograph of his "Church" painting (described by Molesworth above). I have also invited him to join the BHF, and enrol in the BSB classroom. He would surely be a most valuable "visiting professor". So let us wait in hope! :grinsmile:
I have e-mailed Keith Fletcher (proprietor of H M Fletcher bookseller of Wynches Barn, Much Hadham, Hertfordshire), asking if he might (pretty please!) donate to the BSB classroom a photograph of his "Church" painting (described by Molesworth above). I have also invited him to join the BHF, and enrol in the BSB classroom. He would surely be a most valuable "visiting professor". So let us wait in hope! :grinsmile:
Aidan
master brummie
Am crossing my fingers and toes.
Had an answer from IMecheE that the archivist(s?) are out this week and will answer asap....
While I was in the waiting room, I thought I would leaf through EAEC (European Automobile Engineers Co-operation if I need to spell it out, tsk, well the EC has to be good for something). Issue 5 in Aug 2009 caught my eye both for the birthplace and link back to the F.Hill company above:
Important contributions to the development of steam vehicles used in practice were done by
Colonel Francis Macerone and John Squire.
Macerone (1788-1846), often known by the English pronunciation ‘Maceroni’, was born in
Birmingham, West Midlands to Italian immigrants. He fought in the Napoleonic Wars and was
aide-de-camp to Joachim Murat, King of Naples and his envoy in England. In later life, he
turned to inventing. His most important invention was a steam coach, which he made in
association with John Squire in 1832. This was capable of carrying eight passengers and ran
successfully for 18 months over a distance of several thousand kilometres, without need of
significant repairs.
First he cooperated with Guerny (see issue 09/03) and later with John Squire.
In their first steamer, the eight passengers were placed in the open carriage body and their seats
were put on the top of the water tanks. The engines were placed horizontally underneath the
carriage body; the boiler was at the back and was regulated by an engine man, who had a seat
at the back for attending to it.
Although this vehicle was not planned primarily for public transport, it was in service for the
transport of persons for 18 months.
This new kind of vehicle left an overwhelming impression on the unsuspecting people. But
after a while, people got used to this species of “horse-less” coach. A contemporary witness
said: “It is a fine specimen of indomitable perseverance and it is not uncommon to travel from
18 to 20 miles per hour by it”.
In 1843 [corrected from the original 1943! - thanks Mikejee] Macerone and Squire built a bigger steam carriage with 18 passengers in the style of a French
horse carriage. The driver´s compartment was open at the front and to the sides. In the middle was the
passenger compartment and in the rear, the vessel and steam engine compartment.
After finishing this “steamer”, the two partners separated.
Macerone built two more vehicles of this type and he thought to have found a serious purchaser in the
person of Captain D`Ascada, an Italian, who paid the necessary deposit. Both vehicles were shipped to
France and Belgium and presented there to the public. D`Ascada sold the steamers to a company, but
did not pay the rest of the sum to Macerone, which ended in his financial ruin. Highly indebted he
founded in 1841 the “GENERAL STEAM-CARRIAGE COMPANY and tested his last steamer.
The qualification of this “vapomobil” for the transport of persons was proved by a demonstration of 18
passengers through the dense traffic of London with an average speed of 26 km/h.
Remark of the editor, “This was faster than today”
Even the “notorious” Shooter´s Hill, the so-called “horse killer”, could be covered at 13 km /h. The
name implies, the district is centered upon a hill - one of the highest points in London at 432
feet (132m) - offering good views over the River Thames to the north, with central London
clearly visible to the west.
The planned introduction of this type of steamer in the GENERAL STEAM-CARRIAGE COMPANY
failed due to the high price of production.
The 1841C shows him born in "Foreign Parts" and living in 26 Pratt Street,(Pratt Walk), Lambeth, London. He died 25/07/1846 and was buried on the 31st at All Souls Cemetery, Kensal Green. He seems to have married sisters in 1821 on board a ship off the coast of Spain and in 1828 but the indications here are that he was born in 1787 "near Manchester". Can't find his baptism on FamilySearch. Can anyone clear up where he was born so we can get him into our Birmingham Index??
Had an answer from IMecheE that the archivist(s?) are out this week and will answer asap....
While I was in the waiting room, I thought I would leaf through EAEC (European Automobile Engineers Co-operation if I need to spell it out, tsk, well the EC has to be good for something). Issue 5 in Aug 2009 caught my eye both for the birthplace and link back to the F.Hill company above:
Important contributions to the development of steam vehicles used in practice were done by
Colonel Francis Macerone and John Squire.
Macerone (1788-1846), often known by the English pronunciation ‘Maceroni’, was born in
Birmingham, West Midlands to Italian immigrants. He fought in the Napoleonic Wars and was
aide-de-camp to Joachim Murat, King of Naples and his envoy in England. In later life, he
turned to inventing. His most important invention was a steam coach, which he made in
association with John Squire in 1832. This was capable of carrying eight passengers and ran
successfully for 18 months over a distance of several thousand kilometres, without need of
significant repairs.
First he cooperated with Guerny (see issue 09/03) and later with John Squire.
In their first steamer, the eight passengers were placed in the open carriage body and their seats
were put on the top of the water tanks. The engines were placed horizontally underneath the
carriage body; the boiler was at the back and was regulated by an engine man, who had a seat
at the back for attending to it.
Although this vehicle was not planned primarily for public transport, it was in service for the
transport of persons for 18 months.
This new kind of vehicle left an overwhelming impression on the unsuspecting people. But
after a while, people got used to this species of “horse-less” coach. A contemporary witness
said: “It is a fine specimen of indomitable perseverance and it is not uncommon to travel from
18 to 20 miles per hour by it”.
In 1843 [corrected from the original 1943! - thanks Mikejee] Macerone and Squire built a bigger steam carriage with 18 passengers in the style of a French
horse carriage. The driver´s compartment was open at the front and to the sides. In the middle was the
passenger compartment and in the rear, the vessel and steam engine compartment.
After finishing this “steamer”, the two partners separated.
Macerone built two more vehicles of this type and he thought to have found a serious purchaser in the
person of Captain D`Ascada, an Italian, who paid the necessary deposit. Both vehicles were shipped to
France and Belgium and presented there to the public. D`Ascada sold the steamers to a company, but
did not pay the rest of the sum to Macerone, which ended in his financial ruin. Highly indebted he
founded in 1841 the “GENERAL STEAM-CARRIAGE COMPANY and tested his last steamer.
The qualification of this “vapomobil” for the transport of persons was proved by a demonstration of 18
passengers through the dense traffic of London with an average speed of 26 km/h.
Remark of the editor, “This was faster than today”
Even the “notorious” Shooter´s Hill, the so-called “horse killer”, could be covered at 13 km /h. The
name implies, the district is centered upon a hill - one of the highest points in London at 432
feet (132m) - offering good views over the River Thames to the north, with central London
clearly visible to the west.
The planned introduction of this type of steamer in the GENERAL STEAM-CARRIAGE COMPANY
failed due to the high price of production.
The 1841C shows him born in "Foreign Parts" and living in 26 Pratt Street,(Pratt Walk), Lambeth, London. He died 25/07/1846 and was buried on the 31st at All Souls Cemetery, Kensal Green. He seems to have married sisters in 1821 on board a ship off the coast of Spain and in 1828 but the indications here are that he was born in 1787 "near Manchester". Can't find his baptism on FamilySearch. Can anyone clear up where he was born so we can get him into our Birmingham Index??
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Thylacine
master brummie
Molesworth, thanks for the grand work on Francis Macerone. We must look for a larger scan of the excellent painting. What a character! And perhaps Brum-born.
Frank Hills (of Deptford, Kent; NOT "Hill"), John Squire (of Pongill, Cornwall) and Francis Macerone all appear to have been involved in the General Steam Carriage Co (GSC), which was founded in August 1841. In November 1843 statutory incorporation was applied for, but I can find no record of a "General Steam Carriage Company Act 1844". The purpose of GSC was to exploit the patents of Frank Hills (29 January 1839, 5 May 1840 and 30 March 1843) and John Squire (21 December 1842) for the purpose of manufacturing and operating steam carriages.
As with many of our early 19th century "steam men", Macerone published his own account of this era and its products: A Few Facts Concerning Elementary Locomotion (Second Edition - London: Effingham Wilson, 1834). The e-text I have so far found is of Google provenance, so I'll look for a better one and provide a link. Sorry, only copy found.
Frank Hills (of Deptford, Kent; NOT "Hill"), John Squire (of Pongill, Cornwall) and Francis Macerone all appear to have been involved in the General Steam Carriage Co (GSC), which was founded in August 1841. In November 1843 statutory incorporation was applied for, but I can find no record of a "General Steam Carriage Company Act 1844". The purpose of GSC was to exploit the patents of Frank Hills (29 January 1839, 5 May 1840 and 30 March 1843) and John Squire (21 December 1842) for the purpose of manufacturing and operating steam carriages.
As with many of our early 19th century "steam men", Macerone published his own account of this era and its products: A Few Facts Concerning Elementary Locomotion (Second Edition - London: Effingham Wilson, 1834). The e-text I have so far found is of Google provenance, so I'll look for a better one and provide a link. Sorry, only copy found.
Thylacine
master brummie
Antipodean civilization quietly adopted the metric system some thirty years ago without too much trauma. It's only a few unreconstructed old Pommies like myself who can still think "imperial"!
[Rough conversion rule for km to miles: multiply by six and divide by ten, so 50 kph = 30 mph.]
Aidan
master brummie
Nice - thanks Thylacine -- I see from the Appendix that he didn't get on with the Mechanics' Magazine either (beginning to sound like a tabloid of the day) - as he quotes from Horace's Epistles "quaere peregrinum vicinia rauca reclamat" - quite!
You'd think his own book would give space to some good piccies - but not even a frontispiece! :cry:
You'd think his own book would give space to some good piccies - but not even a frontispiece! :cry:
Excuse my ignorance, thylacine, but why , in this case , are you objecting to Google. I know in many cases you can't see all the book, and can't download, and there always remains the possibility that they might reduce access if they wanted to sell a copy, but in this case you can download the pdf and do what you want with it
Aidan
master brummie
Boo - suburb of Manchester https://www.archive.org/stream/memoirsoflifeadv01mace#page/13/mode/1up - and I thought the Kings Head pictured might be the one in Harborne... I should quote Horace but am afraid it has to be Homer - D'Oh
Thylacine
master brummie
You're quite right, Mike, in this case. I suppose I do have a prejudice against Google Books. Partly because of the problems you outlined, and also the cluttered "advertising" style of their interface. But I agree that where the whole book can be downloaded it doesn't matter. I very rarely download the e-books though, and the cleaner archive.org interface is just a personal preference. Even on archive.org, the Google-scanned texts are less consistent in quality than others.