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Midland Red Early Days

2010-03-28 17:40:26

Between 1924 and 1930 Midland Red supplied 44 SOS chassis to Llandudno Coaching & Carriage Co Ltd (Royal Blue Motor Services). All were made for Llandudno except for 1926 standard SOS registered HA3512. This originated as Midland Red fleet number (A number) 573 but was sold to Llandudno before entering service. Midland Red then re-assigned fleet number 573 to a large Commercial Goods Services van (HA2568 Scammell 10 ton 40 hp articulated 6-wheeler chassis number 928).

Llandudno passed to Crosville in February 1931 and all 44 SOS vehicles were included. HA3512 became Crosville 511 and was surely the only Smethwick-registered vehicle in the Crosville fleet. It was withdrawn in 1933.

Also included was a batch of sixteen 1928 SOS QLs. These were withdrawn by Crosville in 1934 and sold to our old friend Potteries Motor Traction Co Ltd (PMT). Miraculously one of these has survived. Registered CC7745 it entered Royal Blue service in May 1928. It passed to Crosville (as fleet number 521) in February 1931 and to PMT (as fleet number 42) in 1934. After withdrawal in 1937 it disappeared for a while, being rediscovered as a mobile home at Llangollen in 1952. Preservationist Tom Hollis of Queensferry rescued it and it passed to BaMMOT in May 1984 for restoration and preservation at the Wythall museum (the challenge is pictured here: https://johnbird1408.fotopic.net/p57525297.html).

I thought this was the sole surviving SOS QL. Wrong! – Friends of Beamish Museum (https://friendsofbeamish.co.uk/trambus/sosbus.html) are restoring ex-Northern General 338.

The last two SOS chassis made for Royal Blue were 1930 QLCs with Brush 29-seat charabanc bodies. These survived with Crosville until 1949, a remarkably long life (I’m not sure if they were rebuilt or rebodied at some period).

Peter Gould’s Crosville fleet list (https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/crosville2.htm) includes six ex-Llandudno vehicles which have me puzzled. They are all listed as “SOS 30 cwt” chassis, four new in 1926 (reg KA4533, KA4602, CC6617, CC7114) and two in 1927 (CC7115, CC7116). Bodies are given as unknown B19F, B20F or Ch26. All were withdrawn in 1931 so probably didn’t see service with Crosville. The chassis numbers don’t look anything like Midland Red ones (50851, 50895, 50867, 51626, 17230, 17226). Does anyone know what these “SOS 30 cwt” might be? Was another manufacturer using the SOS make name, or was Midland Red up to something I don’t know about?
 
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The mystery Crosville vehicles are Dennis 30 cwt chassis, no BMMO connection at all. I on't know where the SOS reference comes from, but it is repeated in other Crosville fleet lists.

The Royal Blue QL is indeed at Wythall, parked in a row of "to do later" vehicles including such gems as an "AHA" DON type, a 1933 Morris - Commercial 'Imperial' and a post-war Foden double decker.

There was another QL saved for preservation in the 1960s, a Northern General one, but sadly it was later broken up, as was the last pre-war coach, "ONC" FHA 418.

The Crosville QLCs were not rebodied, and must have been about the last full-size normal control canvas roofed charabancs to run in the UK. Below is a pic of one near the end of its days, also a 'Royal Blue' (Llandudno, not Bournemouth) 'Standard when new.
The QLC is not converted to half-cab, by the way - that is the front of another bus behind!
 
Again thanks for the apt pictures, Lloyd. This thread is becoming "An Illustrated History of Midland Red and Associated Companies"! I can almost see the colour of the SOS standard: it's a handsome machine. I can't see any number plate or other identifying numbers - do you know its identity? I'm afraid the QLC looks past its "use by" date (perhaps it's just me!).

Thanks for putting me straight on the Dennis 30 cwt "so-called SOS" (I'm relieved as well as grateful). It's interesting how these errors become "accepted text". That's why critical scholars like ourselves are needed!?!?!
 
I forgot to look for the reg in the back window of the Royal Blue SOS: I can just see the first C of CC but can't make out the visible numerals (AND the window pillar is in the way!).
 
2010-03-28 22:57:13

The Midland Red Daimler Y (HA1655).

This interesting bus (referred to by Lloyd in a recent post) almost slips beneath the radar because it was one of the very few (after 1914) that was not given a fleet number (A number). As far as accountant H S Fear was concerned it didn’t exist! It was registered HA1655 (Daimler Y chassis number 5363 with Strachan & Brown B29F body number BB254). The original chassis (which came to Midland Red in 1922) was ex-Samuelson (Charing Cross Rd, London) new in 1921 with registration XD9026. But it was heavily modified with parts from an AEC Y (chassis number 17570) purchased from Slough Lorries & Components in 1922. The resulting hybrid vehicle never entered service with Midland Red (Wyndham Shire was probably horrified at the thought!). HA1655 was sent to Potteries in 1922 in exchange for their EH2393 (a bare Tilling-Stevens TS3 chassis new in 1919) which itself was originally Midland Red fleet number 113 (registered OE1142) sold to Potteries in 1920! Midland Red mounted an ex-War Department tilt van body (B40) on the EH2393 chassis and gave it fleet number 276 and the recycled registration OA7101. This van survived until broken up in 1927. I don’t know what happened to HA1655 after it got to Potteries. [Lloyd, my authority is of course Peter Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 but please feel free to make corrections or additions!]

This is the kind of complicated little story that enthusiasts love! But what was really going on here? We know that during this period Midland Red was experimenting with many different chassis and engines while they made up their minds about their own SOS. But this little tale is positively weird! Can you enlighten us further Lloyd? And do you have a picture of HA1655 up your sleeve?

Lloyd, your observation that HA1655 was the lowest Midland Red Smethwick registration is quite correct as regards public service vehicles. But the Midland Red ancillary vehicle fleet contained HA1136 (a Morris Cowley 12 hp two-seater car new in 1921 and numbered M23) which lasted until 1932. [Sorry for indulging in one-downmanship there!]
 
Lloyd I've just had another look at the picture of a QLC chassis you posted before (#59). I'm a bit slow but I see now it's a six-wheeler! Is it HA5140 (new in 1930) undergoing conversion into a breakdown vehicle in 1941? If so the result is pictured on page 200 of Midland Red Volume 2.
 
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Yes, you're right with the chassis, pictured at Carlyle works (the body works) after modification at Bearwood (the chassis works).

Sorry, no known pictures of HA 1655. I suspect that it, and the AEC (Slough lorries and components was one of the contractors selling off ex army vehicles post WW1, and then became a general commercial vehicle dealer) were acquired to learn their secrets, as was Dennis DHA 200 later.
The van-bodied Tilling OA 7101 was a TPE (tramway parcels express) vehicle. There was a tram siding off the Bearwood Rd into a yard alongside Bearwood Garage ([possibly where the Majestic Cinema was later, or right next to it) for the TPE tram vans and trailers to offload at a 'dock' or loading bay, all under the B&MTJC banner.
Heres one of the trams.
 
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As for the Royal Blue SOS, I can make out what could be a 6 and next certainly a 1, and it looks like Carlyle works again so would hazard a guess that it's CC 6121, the only S type with Carlyle body they had, BB434
 
I reckon you're spot on with the id of the pictured Royal Blue SOS!

So it's CC6121: SOS Standard (chassis number 216) with body BB434 (Carlyle B32F) seen at Carlyle Works shortly after bodying in 1926. This is one of six Royal Blue SOS Standards rebodied in 1930 with United B26F (BB1624-1629) and reclassified as ODD.

There's another "error" in Peter Gould's Crosville fleet list. The two 1927 SOS Standards (CC6920-6921) are listed as type QC. I suspect this is because they had London Lorries Ch32 bodies (not to Midland Red specification hence lacking Midland Red body numbers). So they probably looked more like QCs than SOS Standards.

Thanks for the picture of the "Tramways Parcels Express" tram by the way. The road haulage wing of BMMO is very interesting: there's enough material for a book on that alone!
 
2010-03-30 09:05:34

Midland Red Non-Passenger Operations.
(as usual corrections and additions are always welcome)

A fascinating aspect of Midland Red operations was the use of buses and other vehicles for purposes other than carrying passengers. This can be divided into four categories:

1. The carriage of parcels and other small items.

In November 1905 the Birmingham & Midland Tramways Joint Committee (BMTJC) established the Tramways Parcels Express (TPE) service. This involved the use of special tramcars and wagons to carry parcels from place to place in the Black Country. As Lloyd has explained, there was a special tramway siding for this purpose beside Bearwood depot (which is clearly visible in the frontispiece of Midland Red Volume 1). TPE tramcars ran to their own timetable quite independent of passenger services.

In 1915 Midland Red began carrying parcels on its buses in co-ordination with the TPE. The joint service was known as Tramways & Motor Express (TME). The picture Lloyd posted above (# 67) shows a "baggage tramcar" so labelled (but observe that the wagon it is pulling is marked "TPE"). At this time Midland Red also began to acquire commercial motor vans to assist with the TME. These were also used for the CGS (see below). The service came to be known as Midland Red Parcels Express (MRPE) and raised a significant portion of Midland Red revenue. The main parcels receiving office was in Dudley St, Birmingham (pictured on page 181 of Midland Red Volume 2). MRPE continued (using the buses) after the demise of the CGS fleet in 1926 (see below). The Dudley St office remained in use until the mid 1960s.

2. The carriage of more general goods.

In 1915 Midland Red launched its Commercial Goods Services (CGS). For this purpose Midland Red invested in an assortment of vans, lorries and other vehicles which were assigned fleet numbers 298-328 (this was done retrospectively in 1923). As pointed out by Lloyd, a number of ex-War Department Tilling-Stevens TS3 lorries were also employed by CGS. The bodies of CGS vehicles were numbered in a separate series (prefixed "B"). Midland Red Volume 2 has fine pictures of some of these vehicles on pages 196-197. Of special interest is the 1916 Ford T van (page 196 top left) which was fleet number 327 (reg OB2417 chassis number 1100503 with Heath body number B13). This little van displays the curious fleet name "Midland Omnibus Co Ltd" on its rear doors! Also of relevance is the ex-War Department "unidentified lorry" (page 196 top right) which carries the name "Midland Red Commercial Motor Service". Clearly visible is body number (B)42 which actually pins down the identity of the vehicle as fleet number 239 (reg OE7311 ex-War Department T-S TS3 chassis number 923 new in about 1918). Many CGS vehicles carried the livery of firms for which CGS provided contract transport (J G Abbot (Coal) Ltd, Barrow’s Stores, Cadbury, District Iron & Steel Co, Dunlop, Keen & Scott, Mitchell & Butler, Murdoch, Sassons, Winter’s Stores). In May 1926 (following the general strike) Midland Red disbanded its CGS fleet, continuing the service with hired vehicles. This interesting chapter of Midland Red history closed in May 1934 when the CGS business was sold to Pickfords Ltd.

3. The ancillary vehicle fleet.

Like all public transport operators, Midland Red maintained a fleet of motor cars, motor cycles, light vans and other vehicles used in support of passenger-carrying operations. This practice dates back to the horse-drawn era, as is delightfully illustrated by the picture of the Tennant St depot "staff car" (Midland Red Volume 2 page 138 bottom right). The ancillary vehicle fleet was numbered (again retrospectively from 1923) in an "M" series. (More to come.)

4. The use of former passenger vehicles for other purposes.

Midland Red used a number of former buses and coaches for a variety of purposes such as driver instruction, mobile workshops, tree cutting and staff transport. (More to come.)
 
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Alf said:
Lloyd
Had a look around and come up with this CC6121 appears in this 1931 list:)


https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/crosville2.htm
Click to expand...

Yes Alf, some SOS "Standards" were rebodied by United (Later known as Eastern Coach Works) in c 1930 as the "ODD" type (Original Design Development). Midland Red converted 50, and supplied bodies to other SOS users as follows: Trent MT, Derby, 21; Llandudno Coaching & Carriage (Royal Blue), 6; Ortona, Cambridge, 5.
Here's a Midland Red one at Great Malvern.
 
Yes thanks for your contribution Alf. I didn't mean to snub "our resident diplomat" - I was preoccupied with putting together my previous post.

Another great picture Lloyd (at least I know where you found that one!).

Re the ODD conversions: did Midland Red actually install the new bodies for the "outside" operators, or just pass on the United bodies?
 
I suspect that either the old vehicles were returned to Midland Red for modification, minus the old bodies (or one would have turned up somewhere else, like on a TS3BS conversion!)
OR the whole mod was done at Lowestoft (United works).
 
Re: ODD conversions.

There was one other Midland Red ODD, the "prototype" of late 1929 of which the body (BB1551) had 27 seats (Midland Red Volume 1 pages 58-59). The "production" batch of 50 for Midland Red (BB1553-1602) and 32 for "outside" firms (BB1603-1634) were all B26F. The 51 Midland Red ODDs were upseated to 30 in 1934-1935. Lloyd, do you know if any of the "outside" ODDs were similarly upseated? (The 6 Royal Blue ODDs were withdrawn by Crosville in 1933).
 
2010-03-30 12:03:38

The Ortona Motor Co Ltd (Cambridge).
[Lloyd mentioned this firm as the recipient of 5 ODD conversions. Corrections and additions are welcome as always!]

John Berry Walford (1849 – 23 May 1928) and his son James Berry Walford (1882 – 9 Feb 1954) established the Ortona Motor Co Ltd in 1907 taking over the assets of the defunct Cambridge Motor Omnibus Co Ltd (wound up voluntarily by resolution of 7 Nov 1906). Operations began on 1 Aug 1907.

[This is the version of the Cambridge Museum of Technology (hhttps://www.museumoftechnology.com/tram.html). Another source states that the Ortona Motor Co Ltd was founded on 28 Mar 1908.]

The story is that John Berry Walford named the firm after an Italian steamship he had seen while on a Mediterranean cruise (which was in turn named after the Italian coastal town). There is some mystery about this as his son James (who attended Malvern College) is listed in the Malvern Register 1865-1904 (published in 1905) as "engineer in Ortona Motor Co's works, Egham, Surrey".

In 1914 the British Automobile Traction Co Ltd (BAT) invested heavily in Ortona, keeping John Berry Walford on as managing director. BAT was reconstructed in May 1928 as Tilling & British Automobile Traction Co Ltd (TBAT) and Ortona became a subsidiary. Finally on 14 July 1931 Ortona was absorbed (along with Eastern Counties Road Car Co Ltd, Peterborough Electric Traction Co Ltd and the East Anglian operations of United Automobile Services Ltd) into the new Eastern Counties Omnibus Co Ltd (79 Thorpe Rd, Norwich).

Ortona had been a minor purchaser of BMMO-made buses between 1925 and 1929 (7 Standards, 7 Qs and 5 Ms).

[The name “Walford” is particularly dear to Thylacine's heart!]
 
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2010-04-11 00:47:41

Midland Red in North Warwickshire.

Before the advent of the motor bus, shoppers and travellers could buy rides between Nuneaton (Queens Rd gasworks) and Stockingford in horse-drawn "tubs" on Friday and Saturday. The fare was 3d "up" and 2d "down". The tub driver used to shout "Here you are for the Common!" (Stockingford was then known as Nuneaton Common).

We first hear of the motor bus in North Warwickshire when Nuneaton Omnibus Co Ltd was established in about Feb 1908. With a capital of £1,500 in £1 shares, this company intended "to carry on the business of motor car, omnibus, van and cab proprietors and manufacturers, carriers of passengers and goods etc". It was based at 17 Bridge St and the chairman was local newspaper magnate Harry Fieldhouse. For all its grandiose aims, the company was voluntarily wound up on 9 Oct 1908 after a life of about eight months. I don't know if they actually purchased any vehicles or operated any services.

In Aug 1913 the Nuneaton & Stockingford Petrol Electric Omnibus Co Ltd (NSPEO of 386 Croft Rd, Nuneaton) ordered its first motor bus (a Tilling-Stevens). The NSPEO driver who went to fetch this bus and drive it back to Nuneaton was one Fred J Scarr. The bus entered service in Oct 1913 between Nuneaton (Castle Inn, Market Place) and Stockingford (Bucks Hill).

[Source: the Nuneaton Society's Chronicle 1910-1919.]

On 11 Oct 1913 the North Warwickshire Motor Omnibus & Traction Co Ltd (NWMOT) was registered to take over the Tamworth and Nuneaton motor bus services of one J Thornburn (is anything known about this man?). The fleet comprised two Milnes-Daimler single-deckers and three Daimler double-deckers. NWMOT began a service between Tamworth (Twogates) and Nuneaton also in Oct 1913.

In Jul 1915 NWMOT took over NSPEO with its fleet of at least three Tilling-Stevens buses. The three for which I have details were registered AC26 (TS3 double-decker in grey livery new in Feb 1914), AC31 (TTA2 double-decker in red and yellow livery new in Mar 1914) and AC32 (TS3 single-decker in chocolate livery new in Apr 1914). This list does not seem to include the bus fetched by Fred Scarr in Oct 1913 (can anyone clarify this?). The ex-NSPEO buses were soon repainted in the NWMOT dark blue and white livery.

Midland Red smelled an opportunity! In Jun 1917 they began garaging buses at Nuneaton (can anyone confirm this and give the location?). The first local driver was none other than Fred Scarr! Here is a lovely picture of Fred taken at Midland Red Nuneaton depot (Newtown Rd) on 19 Mar 1967. He is seen with long-serving Midland Red inspector A C Hackett, clearly celebrating the 50th anniversary of Midland Red operations at Nuneaton.

Another early local driver was Maurice Perry (6 Nov 1883 – 7 Dec 1926) of Croft Rd, Nuneaton. Maurice is seen here as the driver of a Midland Red TS3 (reg OA4566) on Tamworth to Atherstone service 63 (the rooftop gasbag and the anonymous conductress date the picture to World War 1 and it must be in 1918 after the Midland Red takeover of NWMOT – see below).

Meanwhile in 1917 Mr T Williams of Stockingford established the Trelawney Bus Co and operated a motor bus service between Nuneaton and Whittleford. One of his buses was the scene of a tragic fire in 1924 in which seven passengers lost their lives. This tragic accident is described below (post #182). Mr Williams's Nuneaton – Stockingford service was finally taken over by Midland Red in 1932.

Returning to 1918, on 1 Feb Midland Red purchased the whole share capital of NWMOT (which continued to exist as a non-operating subsidiary). Midland Red acquired eight buses (including the three ex-NSPEO vehicles referred to above) and a depot at Tamworth (Twogates). They also appear to have acquired a depot at Nuneaton (Burgage Walk) which was not used until 14 Feb 1920. It was possibly requisitioned for war work (see Midland Red Volume 2 page 161). Also acquired were thirteen bus bodies which Midland Red numbered in a new "T" series. T1, T12 and T13 were single-deck and the rest open-top double-deck. These were used only as spares and were soon disposed of (T10 went to Southdown Motor Services and T11 to Cumberland Motor Services). The Tamworth Twogates depot was used by Midland Red until 3 Aug 1928 when the Tamworth Aldergate depot was opened. After NWMOT was finally wound up in 1947 the Twogates premises were sold and were later used by the manufacturers of the three-wheel "Reliant" motor car.

In Midland Red Volume 2 (page 172) there's a fascinating 1922 picture of 42 staff and four of the fleet of Tamworth (Twogates) depot. Among the staff are Thomas Edward Dixon (extreme left – awarded the military medal in World War 1) and Herbert "Bob" Young (in bow tie eighth from left in back row). The vehicles are TS3s OH1204 and OE6170, ex-War Department TS3 with recycled registration O9937, and Garford 20 hp HA2326 with BMMO B15F body (Midland Red owned only two of these and this is the only known picture of either). The same picture can be found here but is missing a staff member and half of OE6170 on the right.

By contrast here[FONT=&quot] is a picture of staff at Tamworth (Aldergate) depot a decade later in 1932. Included are: front row – Fred Smith, Albert Wilday, William James Blower, Harry Brown (traffic superintendent), Tom Brammer (traffic inspector); second row – Dick Blount (fourth from left), Andy Stanford (second from right); back row – Tom Williams, Albert James "Jim" Greenslade, Wilfred Munoin, Sid "Tiny" James. There are more medals evident in this shot that in the 1922 picture! No buses sadly.

The four pictures I've linked to are downloadable (as are all the pictures on the excellent Windows on Warwickshire and Staffordshire Past Track websites). I wasn't sure if they'd mind if I actually uploaded them on this forum (the links are really just as good).

[Geographically Tamworth is in southern Staffordshire but it seems natural to include it in this narrative.]
[/FONT]
 
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I must say, I'm impressed by your research (even if you may be an "Ee-stenders" fan!)
Plenty of photos on those sites for me to drool over, too.

Mr Hackett in the Nuneaton photo is in Inspector (or Senior Inspector)'s uniform, and has a long service badge on his lapel.
 
Thanks indeed Lloyd. I must say that this forum (and your guidance) is bringing out the best in me! I've been studying all this stuff for quite some time from my antipodean standpoint. Never had anyone to share it with before.

No, not Walford the fictional place in East London. It's actually my surname (now the Thylacine's out of the bag!). But we can't have two Peter Ws on this forum can we?
 
More on Mayrow.

James J Mayrow's death is recorded 1st quarter 1949, Paddington vol 5d 237, aged 63. That would give a birth date of c 1885, but there are NO other details of anyone called Mayrow in BMD registers except the birth of a Hannah Mayrow in West Derby, Lancashire, in 1893 (vol 8b page 561).

A search of the London Gazette shows that James J Mayrow, of 39 Eardley Crescent, Earls Court, and trading as the Mayro-Wing Aircraft (or Aviation - both are listed on different documents) Company at 82a Lillie Rd, Fulham (which is only a few hundred yards away - the site is now open ground next to a sports hall), was the subject of a bankrupcy order (no.815 of 1915) the date of which is February 9th 1916. William Percy Bowyer, the official receiver, was relased on December 18th of the same year, so JJM must have cleared his debts.

A 1920 London phone book lists 'Mayrow Industrial Systems' of 39 Victoria Street, SW1 (Victoria 6613) but this company was wound up January 3 1921, according to the London Gazette. Doesn't sound like our man anyway - the address is now a posh office block.
EDIT: Just found a reference to the 'Aircraft Steel Construction Co' of 39 Victoria Street SW1.Business commenced June 1916, registered 24 October 1917, Proprietor: J. J. Mayrow (Russian) of 30 Lambert Rd, Brixten (sic) Hill, SW (London). So it IS the same man! (Source: 'Flight' magazine, 29 Nov, 1917).

More likely is the 1922 entry in a phone book for the 'Mayrow Steel Carriage Company', of 1a Vaughan Road, E15. This address is probably where body BB262 was built but is now the rear entrance to a scrapyard fronting on nearby Maitland Rd, "Advance Foam Converters Ltd".

The "Russian" reference above (and in an earlier post) makes me wonder if his name was originally Mayrowitz?
 
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2010-03-30 23:18:37

A picture with a puzzle and an interesting back story.

In Midland Red Volume 1 on page 25 there are three pictures of Tilling-Stevens TTA2 (reg O9942). It is suggested that they were taken in 1920 "evidently after sale, judging by the condition". Actually the condition doesn’t look to bad to me considering the bus is seven years old. It does seem to have been repainted (though you can just see the fleet name "Midland" showing through). The puzzle is that the bus displays bonnet number 123. I’ve been scratching my head over this and can’t come up with a solution – bonnet number 123 wasn’t allocated until TS3 OE1123 came along in 1920 and there’s no possible reason for that number to be on this bus. I’m pretty sure that the bus is the original O9942 (fleet number A13) – it still has its original Birch B27R body. The only thing I could think of was that 123 might be the fleet number of the new owner. This is possible but unlikely.

This bus is one of five of this batch of TTA2s that were sold to C F Rymer Ltd (Wallasey): O9940 and O9941 in 1919; O9937, O9939 and O9942 in 1920. From what I’ve been able to discover about this firm (see following paragraph) it doesn’t seem likely that it was operating over a hundred buses at this period (if ever). So the puzzle remains. Any ideas Lloyd? (By the way thanks for more on Mayrow. I'm still waiting for more on Davidson!?!?)

C F Rymer Ltd.
[Sources: https://www.steamindex.com/archive/arch2.htm; https://liberator31.co.uk/wallasey/Wallasey_Electric_Tramway_%281919-1933%29_part_1/index.html.]

Clarence Frederick Rymer of Wallasey was an accountant, coal merchant, motor dealer, motor garage proprietor, coachbuilder and motor coach operator. He established Quality Coal Co Ltd in partnership with William Henry Fry (ca 1874 – 1940). On 27 December 1917 he established a garage and motor engineering business (Quality Garages). On 26 March 1919 Quality Coal Co Ltd was renamed to C F Rymer Ltd. Rymer was the local Tilling-Stevens agent and in June 1921 became the AEC agent for Liverpool and North Wales. He was a promoter of the trolleybus, setting up demonstrations at Wigan (1921), St Helens (26 November 1923) and Wallasey (28 December 1923). For the last demonstration at least an AEC trolleybus was used. By 1927 he was an independent member of Wallasey Council and still a champion of the trolleybus. C F Rymer Ltd started to build vehicle bodies (freight and passenger) and aspired to the operation of buses and coaches. To assist with the coaching side of the business the company acquired hotels in Llangollen, Betws-y-Coed and Grasmere. Under the name Rymer Holm Motors Ltd he operated long distance coaches from Liverpool to London and Newcastle, attempting to attract American tourists by the use of luxury vehicles. Competitors included Pearson and Crosville. The coaching business ceased at some time in the period 1931 – 1933 (Rymer Holm Motors was wound up in 1929). Rymer had the reputation of being something of a rogue or worse. A Lancashire vehicle manufacturer who had dealings with Rymer wrote in 1929: "We are dealing with a rogue, a man with plenty of money behind him or a madman … I am rather inclined to favour the latter". Rogue or madman, he definitely had "plenty of money behind him" (but I wonder how long it lasted).
 
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2010-03-31 12:29:51 AM

Another puzzling picture (perhaps solved).

Im Midland Red Volume 2 (page 196 lower right) there's a rather misty picture captioned “TS3 box van, AC31 or AC32, seen from the staircase of an open-top double-decker at Carlyle Rd Works”.

Now I can’t for the life of me read the registration (can your eagle eyes make it out Lloyd?). But by close reading of Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 and sheer forensic brainwork (LOL) I think I’ve identified the van.

First of all, it’s interesting to note that registrations AC31 and AC32 originated with NSPEO in 1914 and passed to Midland Red on 1 February 1918 with NWMOT (see post #78 above). But that is of no help to us because both registrations soon moved on to other vehicles.

The picture was clearly not taken before 1922 (when the first Midland Red FS double-deck body was built).

Registration AC32 was transferred in 1919 to ex-Edinburgh TS3 fleet number A266 (formerly reg S4445) with charabanc body C1 (it is pictured in Midland Red Volume 1 on page 33). A266 was rebodied as a bus later in 1919 (using ex-NWMOT body number T11!). I have no record of any further use of AC32.

On the other hand AC31 was transferred in 1920 to ex-War Department TS3 lorry fleet number A279. But this vehicle was extended to 15 ft wheelbase in 1921 and given body BB208 (BRCW B29F) and registration O9939. However AC31 was transferred in 1921 to TTA2 fleet number A2 (new in 1913 with reg O9931 and converted to a lorry in about 1915). A2 was broken up (still with reg AC31) in 1922. Moreover Hardy states (page 113) in relation to BMMO box van bodies B8 and B9: "probably on Tilling ex-buses O99xx".

So assuming that Hardy’s facts are correct and his assumptions reasonable my conclusion is inescapable. The van in the picture is not a TS3. It is fleet number A2 (Tilling-Stevens TTA2 new in 1913) with BMMO box van body B8 or B9. It is seen in 1922, the last year of its life. (Can you tell if it’s a TTA2 or TS3 from the picture Lloyd? Sadly the whole radiator isn’t visible.)

Well it’s past my bedtime. Goodnight all!
 
Puzzle pictures

1) Bus O 9942.
Bonnet number 123 – this has long been a mystery. The wheels are TS3, not TTA2 (solid ‘O’ section spokes rather than ‘+’ section), all fleetnames and legal writing have been covered, the body condition is poor, even patched at the back – and is that rear window broken? Not the condition they would want a service bus to be in. But why photograph it then, unless they didn’t have any of that batch?
The same bus earlier in its life is on page 20, with acetylene lighting (later changed to electric) and correct pattern wheels.
The bonnet looks as shabby as the bus, so I won’t suggest it was missing, and one borrowed off a nearby new bus – I think the TS3 was longer (the engine was certainly larger – we have a BMMO / Tilling ‘Wonder’ engine at Wythall, and it is too big for O 9926’s chassis mounting points).
Why 123? The caption says the registration did not go with the bus, O 9942 being reused (see page 43) so what registration did Mr Rymer get for it? Something ending 123, I’ll guess. The clue? Study that bonnet closely – the number and near surround has been repainted.

2) Van AC 31 or 32.
No, I can’t tell if it’s a TTA2 or TS3 – some of the former had TS3 radiators later anyway (the early bottom tank was too small). I do follow your theory, though – that vehicle started life as double decker O 9931.

Another mystery picture (below) is the double decker bottom right page 32. Despite the caption, this is actually the chassis of A73 (OA 7102) carrying body BB32 in 1921.
This bus had originally been Scottish General Omnibus Co’s VS 2216, Tilling Stevens TTA2 chassis no. 38, and was bought with two others (see below) in 1915. It ran in service initially with Birch B29R body BB102 (probably the same as BB90-99, as in mystery picture 1) but could have been bought with one of the early charabanc bodies with almost individual makers (or previous owner’s) names.
The bonnet number 102 is the clue here, and it is more likely to be a TTA2 than a TS3 as there is no ‘bumper bar’ in front of the radiator.
The d/d body was fitted 1918, and the bus was withdrawn in 1921 and scrapped carrying registration AC 43 (to get rid of it and keep OA 7102).
Registrations could be moved about almost at will in those days, and often stayed with bodies as the rear number plates were painted on the glass, it would be another job to repaint it different.

When Birmingham Corporation took over the services wholly within the city in 1914, and the vehicles and Tennant St garage, the buses they had were subject to some body changes.
O 9927/8/9 went with bodies BB 49, 100/1 (order not known for sure, but read on) and BB27-9 stayed with BMMO, going onto A71 (OA 7100), A72 (OA 7101), and A20 (OA 2549) respectively.
A71/2 were the other two chassis bought from SGOC (see above), which had carried BB100/1, unknown make O18/16RO double deckers, and A 20 which was the next chassis numerically after A19’s had carried second-hand Dodson O18/16RO body BB49 (ex Metropolitan Steam Omnibus Co, London). It is possible that the bodies were straight swaps, but they were soon gone and we don’t know as Birmingham disregarded the BB numbers. They listed the bodies as Brush make as if the change didn’t happen!
A20 was sold to Potteries in 1918 with registration S4443 (which it had exchanged with A264, recently bought from Scottish Motor Traction but new to Edinburgh Corporation) and presumably body BB27(?).

A 264, now registered OA 2549, was given a new Tilling B29F body (BB126) which it carried until 1921, gaining then similar body BB79 until 1923, when Brush B29F body BB was fitted. Later in 1923 that body and registration went onto TS3 chassis no 1122, repurchased from Potteries (where it had been EH 1644), it had originally been A121 (OE 3150). Gets complicated, don’t it?

By the way, note the Carlyle Road Works "Mess Room" behind the bus - it can be seen in the O 9942 picture as well.
 
Many thanks for you reply Lloyd. It'll take me a while to study Puzzle Picture 3 and your analysis. In the mean time I'll post a whimsical little essay I've been working on. As always I welcome corrections, additions and comments.
 
2010-03-31 11:17:35

The Chief Engineer’s Motor Cars 1915-1954.

In December 1913 the Kidderminster & District Electric Lighting & Traction Co Ltd (which sounds a bit like a 1970s rock band but was actually a tramway and motor bus operator in and around the thriving Worcestershire town) purchased a Ford 20 hp five-seater touring car with the (now very desirable) registration AB908. I have no record of what KDELT used this motor car for, but in September 1915 it "passed into the hands" of Midland Red where it spent the rest of its (rather long) life. It received a new chassis in 1916 and was finally broken up in July 1931. As Peter Hardy records (BMMO Volume 1 page 122): "This was the first car allocated for the use of Mr L G Wyndham Shire, and it is interesting to note that all subsequent cars reserved for this chief engineer incorporated the figures '908' in their registration numbers".

Now numerologists might be able to tell us the significance of 908, but for me this story is a reminder of a delightful touch of vanity in our chief engineer's character. We can imagine Mr Wyndham Shire, when asked about the meaning of his car registration, replying gravely: "I have often been asked what 908 means, and I have been told what it should mean a good many times, but I leave it to you to interpret what the numerals mean". [cf Midland Red Volume 1 page 55 "Meaning of SOS".] I wonder if the great man drove the car himself, or if a uniformed company chauffeur did the honours, "himself" reclining comfortably in the spacious rear seat.

But all this is sheer speculation. For the record, here is a list of the Midland Red chief engineer’s personal transport over the years. They formed part of the Midland Red ancillary vehicle fleet, so the first number given is the "M" number allocated to such vehicles (yet not displayed on them).

M1 (AB908 Ford 20 hp five-seater) 1915-1931 (ex-KDELT new 1913);
M15 (OA908 Austin 20 hp saloon) 1920-1938 (chassis exchanged with M41);
M37 (OM7908 Chrysler 22 hp tourer 1925-1940;
[M41 (OM6908 Austin 20 hp van) 1925-1931 (chassis exchanged with M15);]
M52 (OP4908 Chrysler 30 hp tourer) 1927-1936;
M92 (HA9908 Morris Oxford 16 hp saloon) 1934-1945;
M101 (BHA908 Buick 38 hp saloon) 1936-1954;
M104 (CHA908 Ford V8 30 hp saloon) 1936-1949.

I have included M41 because it has the "right" registration and is mentioned in connection with M15, but an Austin van hardly sounds like a suitable vehicle for the personal transport of Mr Shire. As far as I am aware this is a complete list of the "908" cars (Hardy only takes us up to 1959). Observe the predominance of American cars in the list, and the long lifetimes (10 to 19 years).

If we transform the list we can see (approximately) how many such vehicles were in use at different periods:

1915-1919: M1;
1920-1924: M1, M15;
1925-1926: M1, M15, M37;
1927-1931: M1, M15, M37, M52;
1932-1933: M15, M37, M52;
1934-1935: M15, M37, M52, M92;
1936-1938: M15, M37, M92, M101, M104;
1939-1940: M37, M92, M101, M104;
1941-1945: M92, M101, M104;
1946-1949: M101, M104;
1950-1954: M101.

We can see that for many years there was "an embarrassment of riches" in Mr Shire’s choice of vehicle, with as many as five to choose from in the "glory years" 1936-1938. Evidently his assistants also used to travel in style!

Clearly the "908" vanity didn’t long survive Mr Shire, who retired from Midland Red in April 1940. The dour Scot Mr Donald McIntyre Sinclair (his replacement as chief engineer and general manager following O C Power’s death "in harness" in October 1943) was known for removing all traces of the enigmatic "SOS" from Midland Red vehicles. Perhaps he did the same with "908". But he probably nevertheless enjoyed being driven around his domain in that Buick 38 hp saloon!

[If these cars had survived in good order until modern times, they would constitute a pretty impressive mini-museum. Does anyone know of any pictures of these illustrious vehicles?]
 
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2010-03-31 12:10:22

Puzzle Picture 1 (O9942 with bonnet number 123).

I agree with everything you say (on second look the bus does look seriously dilapidated). Why were these pictures taken? Perhaps because this was the last to leave BMMO of the 1913 batch of six TTA2s with Birch rear-entrance bodies. Bonnet number 123 has clearly been recently painted over the original 42, so your theory (that it reflects the registration about to be transferred to it) sounds very attractive. But what was the new registration? Unfortunately it is not chalked on like that on the lorry bus (OE7306 / OE3153) we discussed elsewhere on this forum. Presumably it must have been one owned or acquired by Midland Red and ending in 123. The only candidate I have been able to discover is OB7123 (fleet number A318 Walker 20 cwt battery-electric lorry in the Commercial Goods Services fleet). This vehicle was new in 1918 but there is no record of its body or disposal so it just might have been withdrawn in time for its registration to be transferred to O9942. An alternative theory is that since C F Rymer was more of a dealer than an operator at this time, 123 might be the fleet number of the firm he was selling the vehicle on to. But this is very unlikely – why would Midland Red paint that number on when the bus would clearly have to be repainted by the ultimate owner. No, I think your theory is correct.
 
Here’s a picture that I’ve only recently discovered – and it has got me very confused.
Charabanc OK 1310 should be a Tilling-Stevens TS3, chassis no. 1759, with Startin Ch 32 body C14.
Close inspection though shows SOS hub caps on the axles, and fuel tank alongside the driver (you can see the filler next to the klaxon horn) as is correct for an SOS Standard.
OK 1310 (A232) is listed as ‘converted to TS3B, 1925’, which is the replacement of the electric transmission with a gearbox, but was the conversion taken further, i.e. full modification to SOS Standard configuration? Some of the TS3B conversions were fitted with ‘Standard’ bodies released by the rebodying of chassis as ODD type, becoming TS3BS types.
This coach was withdrawn in 1928, as were the other five of the batch (OK 1308-10, OE 7311-3), but the one numerically preceding this was given a bus body (BB356) in 1930 and ran as an experimental vehicle for a while.
 
Lloyd I've just noticed that the number of views of this thread has exceeded 1,000. I must say everyone's being very quiet!
 
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