-
Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.
We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team -
HI folks the server that hosts the site completely died including the Hdd's and backups.
Luckily i create an offsite backup once a week! this has now been restored so we have lost a few days posts.
im still fixing things at the moment so bear with me and im still working on all images 90% are fine the others im working on now
we are now using a backup solution
Midland Red Early Days
- Thread starter Thylacine
- Start date
-
- Tags
- 1900s 1910s bmmo early days midland red
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-02 07:11:27
London Gazette search on “Thomas Startin”:
01 Jun 1864: Thomas Startin and Henry Mackenzie trading as Startin & Mackenzie (carriage builders, Birmingham) dissolve their partnership. Thomas Startin continues the business.
31 Mar 1865: Thomas Startin (Benacre St, Birmingham) patent application 676 “certain improvements in Venetian blinds for carriages and which said improvements are also applicable to certain blinds or screens for other purposes”.
20 Jun 1866: Thomas Startin (coach builder, Birmingham), William Summerton (miller, Pebble Mill, Pershore Rd, Kings Norton) and Mary Ann Reay (corn dealer, Birmingham) are named as trustees of a deed of assignment (number 18,122) lodged on behalf of debtor Abraham Whitehouse (cab and omnibus proprietor, Henley St, Birmingham) who is to be sold up. [Abraham Whitehouse survived the experience and continued to operate (horse) buses. See my next post.]
18 Jul 1873: Determination “of the boundaries of the wards of the borough of Birmingham and of apportioning the councillors thereto” … (following a petition of the Birmingham borough council of 1 Aug 1872). Thomas Startin (coach builder, Benacre St) is named as one of the three councillors for St Martin’s ward. [This issue of the Gazette is full of interest for those interested in Birmingham civic history. Full details of the boundaries of the 16 wards are given, along with the names, addresses and occupations of the 48 councillors. One of the St Paul’s councillors is Joseph Chamberlain (screw manufacturer, Broad St) who first became mayor about this time].
17 Nov 1876: Thomas Startin makes patent application number 4367 for “improvements in folding steps”.
01 Jul 1898: announcement concerning the will of Thomas Startin Junior (coach builder, Aston Rd, Birmingham) who died on 26 Apr 1897. The executors are Mary Ann Startin, Thomas Edward Linnett Startin, Ernest Henry Startin.
31 Dec 1907: the dissolution of the partnership of Thomas Edward Linnett Startin, Ernest Henry Startin and Percy Startin trading as Thomas Startin Junior (carriage builders, Victoria Carriage Works, Aston Rd, Aston) by mutual consent.
The only other references (in 1973, 1977, 2008, 2009) are to the firms Thomas Startin (Erdington) Ltd or Thomas Startin Jnr Ltd. Nothing on coach making.
One of the genealogy websites (which are very confusing as usual) gives the 1871 census return for a Startin household of 126 Benacre St: Thomas Startin (coach builder, age 42); Ann (wife, 43); Ann B (daughter, 20); Caroline (daughter, 19); Francis (son, 17); Charles (son, 10); Frederick (son, 7). The poster records that the father and grandfather of this Thomas Startin (both also named Thomas Startin) were also coach builders. This Thomas Startin seems to have died in Dec 1904, so he’s not the Thomas Startin Junior who died 26 Apr 1897.
There appear to be quite a number of coach builders named Thomas Startin over the years! We haven’t proved that the Startin firm which made the Midland Red chara bodies was called Thomas Startin. We need a 1920s press clipping or advertisement to clinch it.
London Gazette search on “Thomas Startin”:
01 Jun 1864: Thomas Startin and Henry Mackenzie trading as Startin & Mackenzie (carriage builders, Birmingham) dissolve their partnership. Thomas Startin continues the business.
31 Mar 1865: Thomas Startin (Benacre St, Birmingham) patent application 676 “certain improvements in Venetian blinds for carriages and which said improvements are also applicable to certain blinds or screens for other purposes”.
20 Jun 1866: Thomas Startin (coach builder, Birmingham), William Summerton (miller, Pebble Mill, Pershore Rd, Kings Norton) and Mary Ann Reay (corn dealer, Birmingham) are named as trustees of a deed of assignment (number 18,122) lodged on behalf of debtor Abraham Whitehouse (cab and omnibus proprietor, Henley St, Birmingham) who is to be sold up. [Abraham Whitehouse survived the experience and continued to operate (horse) buses. See my next post.]
18 Jul 1873: Determination “of the boundaries of the wards of the borough of Birmingham and of apportioning the councillors thereto” … (following a petition of the Birmingham borough council of 1 Aug 1872). Thomas Startin (coach builder, Benacre St) is named as one of the three councillors for St Martin’s ward. [This issue of the Gazette is full of interest for those interested in Birmingham civic history. Full details of the boundaries of the 16 wards are given, along with the names, addresses and occupations of the 48 councillors. One of the St Paul’s councillors is Joseph Chamberlain (screw manufacturer, Broad St) who first became mayor about this time].
17 Nov 1876: Thomas Startin makes patent application number 4367 for “improvements in folding steps”.
01 Jul 1898: announcement concerning the will of Thomas Startin Junior (coach builder, Aston Rd, Birmingham) who died on 26 Apr 1897. The executors are Mary Ann Startin, Thomas Edward Linnett Startin, Ernest Henry Startin.
31 Dec 1907: the dissolution of the partnership of Thomas Edward Linnett Startin, Ernest Henry Startin and Percy Startin trading as Thomas Startin Junior (carriage builders, Victoria Carriage Works, Aston Rd, Aston) by mutual consent.
The only other references (in 1973, 1977, 2008, 2009) are to the firms Thomas Startin (Erdington) Ltd or Thomas Startin Jnr Ltd. Nothing on coach making.
One of the genealogy websites (which are very confusing as usual) gives the 1871 census return for a Startin household of 126 Benacre St: Thomas Startin (coach builder, age 42); Ann (wife, 43); Ann B (daughter, 20); Caroline (daughter, 19); Francis (son, 17); Charles (son, 10); Frederick (son, 7). The poster records that the father and grandfather of this Thomas Startin (both also named Thomas Startin) were also coach builders. This Thomas Startin seems to have died in Dec 1904, so he’s not the Thomas Startin Junior who died 26 Apr 1897.
There appear to be quite a number of coach builders named Thomas Startin over the years! We haven’t proved that the Startin firm which made the Midland Red chara bodies was called Thomas Startin. We need a 1920s press clipping or advertisement to clinch it.
Thylacine
master brummie
[FONT="]2010-04-02 08:33:00
The 1866 connection between Thomas Startin and debtor Abraham Whitehouse is interesting because we know quite a bit about Mr Whitehouse.
Abraham Whitehouse (Birmingham cab and horse bus proprietor 1847-1878).
Abraham Whitehouse (c 1817 – c 1900) was sometime landlord of the "Shakespear", "Dolphin", "Turks Head" and "Ship" coaching inns. He began his first horse bus service (Birmingham – Shirley) on 1 Jun 1847. In 1849 he was listed as cab proprietor (137 Fiveways Terrace, Camp Hill). By Jan 1862 he was operating a Birmingham – Stratford Rd – Sparkbrook bus service. By 1867 he was operating three services from the "Rose and Crown" (Bull St): Birmingham – Sparkbrook (five times a day); Birmingham – Camp Hill ("Ship") – Shirley – Acocks Green – Solihull (Sundays departing 5 pm); Birmingham – Acocks Green – Solihull – Knowle (Sundays departing Birmingham at 2.30 pm, returning from Knowle at 7.15 pm). By 1869 he was also operating along Warwick Rd. In 1875 the Birmingham – Knowle service became daily. On 8 May 1878 his Stratford Rd and Warwick Rd bus business was taken over by Charles Lane (see below). The 1891 census recorded the Whitehouse household at 567 Stratford Rd, Sparkhill: Abraham (born Tipton, Staffordshire, age 73, retired cab and omnibus proprietor); Ann (born Birmingham, age 61, wife); Francis (born Birmingham, age 19, son, machinist); Ellen Brewin (born Birmingham, age 16, servant).
Charles Lane (Birmingham horse bus proprietor 1878-1897).
Charles Lane (c 1857 – 31 Aug 1933) entered the horse omnibus business on 8 May 1878 when he took over Abraham Whitehouse’s bus business (see above). He resided for a while at Billesley Hall (now part of Moseley golf course) where he used part of the land as a sanatorium for his omnibus horses. On 1 May 1886 Birmingham Central Tramways Co Ltd (BCT) acquired his bus business which comprised four services (all commencing at High St): Birmingham – Bordesley Green – Yardley Rd; Birmingham – Small Heath – Yardley – Sheldon; Birmingham – Sparkbrook – Hall Green – Shirley; Birmingham – Acocks Green. On 5 Jun 1887 (following a change in the board of directors) BCT withdrew its Small Heath and Sparkbrook bus services and curtailed its Acocks Green, Sheldon and Shirley bus services to meet the trams at Small Heath and Sparkbrook. Further economies resulted in Charles Lane returning to the horse bus business with services to Acocks Green, Bordesley Green and Yardley. On 4 Mar or 3 Apr 1897 entrepreneur Claude Tebbitt took over Charles Lane’s bus business (then based at Coventry Rd, Small Heath). In Apr 1897 Tebbitt amalgamated his omnibus interests into the Birmingham General Omnibus Co Ltd (BGO) with Charles Lane as managing director (BGO was taken over by BET in Sep 1899 when our friend O C Power became secretary). In 1913 Lane moved to The Beeches (Hall Green) and became involved in housing developments at Hall Green and Yardley until his death.
[The story of Birmingham’s horse buses is very interesting and takes Birmingham public transport history back as far as 1834. One day I might start a "Birmingham Horse Buses" thread on this forum. Admittedly it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but some forum members may be interested. I’ve accumulated quite a lot of information over the years. What do other forum members think?]
[/FONT]
The 1866 connection between Thomas Startin and debtor Abraham Whitehouse is interesting because we know quite a bit about Mr Whitehouse.
Abraham Whitehouse (Birmingham cab and horse bus proprietor 1847-1878).
Abraham Whitehouse (c 1817 – c 1900) was sometime landlord of the "Shakespear", "Dolphin", "Turks Head" and "Ship" coaching inns. He began his first horse bus service (Birmingham – Shirley) on 1 Jun 1847. In 1849 he was listed as cab proprietor (137 Fiveways Terrace, Camp Hill). By Jan 1862 he was operating a Birmingham – Stratford Rd – Sparkbrook bus service. By 1867 he was operating three services from the "Rose and Crown" (Bull St): Birmingham – Sparkbrook (five times a day); Birmingham – Camp Hill ("Ship") – Shirley – Acocks Green – Solihull (Sundays departing 5 pm); Birmingham – Acocks Green – Solihull – Knowle (Sundays departing Birmingham at 2.30 pm, returning from Knowle at 7.15 pm). By 1869 he was also operating along Warwick Rd. In 1875 the Birmingham – Knowle service became daily. On 8 May 1878 his Stratford Rd and Warwick Rd bus business was taken over by Charles Lane (see below). The 1891 census recorded the Whitehouse household at 567 Stratford Rd, Sparkhill: Abraham (born Tipton, Staffordshire, age 73, retired cab and omnibus proprietor); Ann (born Birmingham, age 61, wife); Francis (born Birmingham, age 19, son, machinist); Ellen Brewin (born Birmingham, age 16, servant).
Charles Lane (Birmingham horse bus proprietor 1878-1897).
Charles Lane (c 1857 – 31 Aug 1933) entered the horse omnibus business on 8 May 1878 when he took over Abraham Whitehouse’s bus business (see above). He resided for a while at Billesley Hall (now part of Moseley golf course) where he used part of the land as a sanatorium for his omnibus horses. On 1 May 1886 Birmingham Central Tramways Co Ltd (BCT) acquired his bus business which comprised four services (all commencing at High St): Birmingham – Bordesley Green – Yardley Rd; Birmingham – Small Heath – Yardley – Sheldon; Birmingham – Sparkbrook – Hall Green – Shirley; Birmingham – Acocks Green. On 5 Jun 1887 (following a change in the board of directors) BCT withdrew its Small Heath and Sparkbrook bus services and curtailed its Acocks Green, Sheldon and Shirley bus services to meet the trams at Small Heath and Sparkbrook. Further economies resulted in Charles Lane returning to the horse bus business with services to Acocks Green, Bordesley Green and Yardley. On 4 Mar or 3 Apr 1897 entrepreneur Claude Tebbitt took over Charles Lane’s bus business (then based at Coventry Rd, Small Heath). In Apr 1897 Tebbitt amalgamated his omnibus interests into the Birmingham General Omnibus Co Ltd (BGO) with Charles Lane as managing director (BGO was taken over by BET in Sep 1899 when our friend O C Power became secretary). In 1913 Lane moved to The Beeches (Hall Green) and became involved in housing developments at Hall Green and Yardley until his death.
[The story of Birmingham’s horse buses is very interesting and takes Birmingham public transport history back as far as 1834. One day I might start a "Birmingham Horse Buses" thread on this forum. Admittedly it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but some forum members may be interested. I’ve accumulated quite a lot of information over the years. What do other forum members think?]
[/FONT]
Last edited:
Peter Walker
gone but not forgotten
I certainly find all this early history fascinating, but I appreciated that not everybody does.
What I think is important that this research and discussion continues and gets put down on record. Sooner or later I think the internet will be mightier than the pen (or the book). So long as it doesn't go missing into the ether somewhere, that is. We have a terrific archive building up here.
Peter
What I think is important that this research and discussion continues and gets put down on record. Sooner or later I think the internet will be mightier than the pen (or the book). So long as it doesn't go missing into the ether somewhere, that is. We have a terrific archive building up here.
Peter
Thylacine
master brummie
Thanks for that Peter. I've taken to keeping my posts (and selected ones of others) on my computer since I experienced some unpleasant internet glitches a few days ago. The internet will be safe provided attention is paid to archiving (and many copies are kept in different places). Mind you there's a lot of rubbish out there in cyberspace and we need to be discriminating (which of course all of us are on this high-quality forum!).
What do you think about starting a "Birmingham Horse Buses" thread at some stage? The Midland Red "Family Tree" (by Alec Jenson) that you posted some time ago would make a good starting point.
What do you think about starting a "Birmingham Horse Buses" thread at some stage? The Midland Red "Family Tree" (by Alec Jenson) that you posted some time ago would make a good starting point.
Thylacine
master brummie
[FONT="]2010-04-02 09:47:10
(Just Like) Startin Over.
[RIP John Lennon (9 Oct 1940 – 8 Dec 1980).]
For the record, here’s an edited transcription of the 1890 Kelly’s Directory extract posted (#118) earlier by mikejee:
Henry Startin (143 Alcester St) coach trimmer.
Startin Brothers (late W Tay, 20-21 Great Charles St Mews) livery and bait stables close to the Town Hall; loose boxes and stalls to accommodate 70 horses; four-horse drags, wagonettes, broughams, the "Royal" hansom cabs etc kept for public hire; horses, carriages etc bought and sold on commission; horses trained for all purposes.
Thomas Startin junior (Victoria Coach Works, 71 Aston Rd North; 1 Holland Rd) carriage builder.
[I love the Startin Brothers entry! Loose box? You were lucky!]
We seem to have unearthed a multitude of Startins (and I thought it was an uncommon name) most of whom are involved in the Birmingham coachmaking and horsekeeping industry. We even exported a few to Leeds (see Lloyd’s post #120). I’m happy to move on unless someone finds a "smoking gun" for the 1920s.
[/FONT]
(Just Like) Startin Over.
[RIP John Lennon (9 Oct 1940 – 8 Dec 1980).]
For the record, here’s an edited transcription of the 1890 Kelly’s Directory extract posted (#118) earlier by mikejee:
Henry Startin (143 Alcester St) coach trimmer.
Startin Brothers (late W Tay, 20-21 Great Charles St Mews) livery and bait stables close to the Town Hall; loose boxes and stalls to accommodate 70 horses; four-horse drags, wagonettes, broughams, the "Royal" hansom cabs etc kept for public hire; horses, carriages etc bought and sold on commission; horses trained for all purposes.
Thomas Startin junior (Victoria Coach Works, 71 Aston Rd North; 1 Holland Rd) carriage builder.
[I love the Startin Brothers entry! Loose box? You were lucky!]
We seem to have unearthed a multitude of Startins (and I thought it was an uncommon name) most of whom are involved in the Birmingham coachmaking and horsekeeping industry. We even exported a few to Leeds (see Lloyd’s post #120). I’m happy to move on unless someone finds a "smoking gun" for the 1920s.
[/FONT]
Lloyd
master brummie
I agree with Peter. Detailled knowledge is to be shared, and discussions like these increase the database of information manyfold. Personally I know little of the horse era, being more mechanically interested, but the history of operation is fascinating to learn.
First query - what are "bait stables"? A fishing connection??
First query - what are "bait stables"? A fishing connection??
Thylacine
master brummie
[FONT="]2010-04-02 10:31:43
bait stable
I believe the following definitions (Oxford English Dictionary 2nd edition 1989) are relevant:
bait
4. food, refreshment, especially a feed for horses, or slight repast for travellers upon a journey; still dialect light refreshment taken between meals.
5. a halt for refreshment in the course of a journey; a stoppage for rest; Welsh or Scotch bait: allowing a horse to stand still a few minutes at the top of a hill.
So a bait stable is presumably a snack bar for horses.
[Yes folks I’m a word nerd too! I’ll think about a "Horse Buses" thread (it’s one of my many secondary interests). For now I’m having too much fun on this thread. Perhaps we can permit the inclusion here of horse bus references from time to time if they’re related to Midland Red (as we already have done).]
[/FONT]
bait stable
I believe the following definitions (Oxford English Dictionary 2nd edition 1989) are relevant:
bait
4. food, refreshment, especially a feed for horses, or slight repast for travellers upon a journey; still dialect light refreshment taken between meals.
5. a halt for refreshment in the course of a journey; a stoppage for rest; Welsh or Scotch bait: allowing a horse to stand still a few minutes at the top of a hill.
So a bait stable is presumably a snack bar for horses.
[Yes folks I’m a word nerd too! I’ll think about a "Horse Buses" thread (it’s one of my many secondary interests). For now I’m having too much fun on this thread. Perhaps we can permit the inclusion here of horse bus references from time to time if they’re related to Midland Red (as we already have done).]
[/FONT]
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-02 10:50:12
Startin Again (can’t leave it alone!)
Here (https://www.blackcountrybugle.co.uk/News/Journey-into-the-past-2.htm) is an interesting picture of a Maudslay lorry with body by Thomas Startin (Aston). A handsome vehicle and a bit closer in time to what we’re looking for.
Startin Again (can’t leave it alone!)
Here (https://www.blackcountrybugle.co.uk/News/Journey-into-the-past-2.htm) is an interesting picture of a Maudslay lorry with body by Thomas Startin (Aston). A handsome vehicle and a bit closer in time to what we’re looking for.
Thylacine
master brummie
I'm copying and pasting from a file on my computer where the font is what I want (I've been doing this without problems for a while now). But just in the last hour or so it's started coming out on the forum in small times roman (which I hate!) and I have to edit the posts to change the font. Weird!
Not your smoking gun , but, for completeness I don’t know if these other directory entries are of interest:
1855
Startin & Mackenzie, carriage builders, 240 Bristol street
1858
Startin and Mackenzie, coach builders;240, Bristol st
Startin Thos., coach builder; home 240, Bristo1 street
1862
Startin,John, coachbuilder, 143 Icknield st east
Startin & Mackenzie. Coach & carriage builders; carriages let by hire,Vere St,Benacre St,;
and 23,24 Bristol Road
Startin Thomas (Startin & Mackenzie) Benacre St.
1867-1876
Startin Thomas, coachbuilder, 126 Benacre st. & Vere st
1878-1880
Startin & Sons, coach builders, 126 Benacre st. & Vere st
1883, 1884
Startin & Sons, coach builders, 126 Benaere st. & Vere st
Startin Henry, coach trimmer, 103 Alcester street
Startin Thomas, coach builder, see Startin & Sons
Startin Thomas, jun. coach builder, see Startin & Sons
1888-1890
The entry I gave earlier for 1890 was also the same in 1888
1892
Startin Henry, coach trimmer, 10 Vaughton street south
Startin Charles (late Startin & Sons),' coach & carriage builder, 158 Great Charles street
Startin Frederick William, Red Lion P.H. 64 Cheapside
Startin Thomas, jun. carriage builder, Victoria carriage works, 71 Aston road north & 1 Holland road
There was also a William Startin, bricklayer & builder, Charles Startin, baker and James Startin, biscuit manufacturer
However it is quite interesting that in 1849 the Startin entries are:
Startin Thomas, bricklayer, 12 Baggot street
Startin Thomas, jun. bricklayer, 293 Summer lane
Startin William, bricklayer, 352 Summer lane
So the coachbuilders started off as bricklayers, like their father
Mike
1855
Startin & Mackenzie, carriage builders, 240 Bristol street
1858
Startin and Mackenzie, coach builders;240, Bristol st
Startin Thos., coach builder; home 240, Bristo1 street
1862
Startin,John, coachbuilder, 143 Icknield st east
Startin & Mackenzie. Coach & carriage builders; carriages let by hire,Vere St,Benacre St,;
and 23,24 Bristol Road
Startin Thomas (Startin & Mackenzie) Benacre St.
1867-1876
Startin Thomas, coachbuilder, 126 Benacre st. & Vere st
1878-1880
Startin & Sons, coach builders, 126 Benacre st. & Vere st
1883, 1884
Startin & Sons, coach builders, 126 Benaere st. & Vere st
Startin Henry, coach trimmer, 103 Alcester street
Startin Thomas, coach builder, see Startin & Sons
Startin Thomas, jun. coach builder, see Startin & Sons
1888-1890
The entry I gave earlier for 1890 was also the same in 1888
1892
Startin Henry, coach trimmer, 10 Vaughton street south
Startin Charles (late Startin & Sons),' coach & carriage builder, 158 Great Charles street
Startin Frederick William, Red Lion P.H. 64 Cheapside
Startin Thomas, jun. carriage builder, Victoria carriage works, 71 Aston road north & 1 Holland road
There was also a William Startin, bricklayer & builder, Charles Startin, baker and James Startin, biscuit manufacturer
However it is quite interesting that in 1849 the Startin entries are:
Startin Thomas, bricklayer, 12 Baggot street
Startin Thomas, jun. bricklayer, 293 Summer lane
Startin William, bricklayer, 352 Summer lane
So the coachbuilders started off as bricklayers, like their father
Mike
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-03 00:26:21
Public Transport in Leamington and Warwick. Part One 1850-1900.
[Corrections, additions and comments are welcome as usual.]
[FONT="]Horse bus proprietors George and William Linney of Leamington Priors dissolved their partnership on 1 Jun 1831. This transaction is particularly remarkable because its announcement in the London Gazette of 29 Jul 1831 contains the first use in that sober journal of the word "omnibus" (the omnibus itself and the word "omnibus" having been introduced into Great Britain by George Shillibeer in 1829):
"Notice is hereby given, that the Partnership heretofore subsisting, or supposed to have subsisted, between William Linney and George Linney, of Leamington-Priors, in the County of Warwick, Omnibus-Proprietors, was dissolved by mutual consent on the 1st day of June last. — All debts owing to or by the concern will be received and paid by the said William Linney, at the Bowling-Green Inn, Church-Street, Leamington-Spa. — Witness our hands the 27th day of July 1831. William Linney. George Linney."
[/FONT]Horse buses provided the early means of transport between the two Warwickshire towns. In 1850 Abraham Denby (39 Clemens St, Leamington) was the proprietor of a Leamington – Warwick horse bus service (eight times a day Monday-Saturday and twice on Sunday). The London Gazette of 30 Apr 1858 announced the upcoming "first examination"[FONT="] of insolvent debtor Abraham Denby (former pork butcher and provision dealer of Leamington Priors). Insolvent Denby may not have been the same person as omnibus proprietor Denby. By 1875 Henry McGregor was operating a bus service between Leamington ("Crown" hotel) and Warwick ("Griffin" inn).
An "Association of Promoters of the Leamington & Warwick Tramways" gave notice on 28 Nov 1871 of intention to apply to the Board of Trade (BoT) for a provisional order authorizing the construction of a horse tramway between Leamington and Warwick. This proposal came to nothing and the Association of Promoters was wound up in 1874.
BoT finally approved the Leamington & Warwick Tramways Order 1879 but the promoters (led by James Richardson) pulled out, so on 18 Feb 1880 the Leamington & Warwick Tramways & Omnibus Co Ltd (LWTO) was established. LWTO (with capital of £60,000) awarded a contract on 14 May 1881 to John Fell (Leamington) to construct a 4 ft 8.5 in horse tramway connecting the two towns. The route followed was: Warwick (High St near Lord Leycester Hospital) – Jury St – Eastgate archway – Smith St – St Johns – Coten End – Emscote Rd – Warwick New Rd – Warwick St – the Parade – Leamington (Avenue Rd railway station). Work was completed on 17 Nov 1881 at a cost of £14,800.
The tramway was opened on 21 November 1881 with two cars. The journey between the two towns took 50 minutes. The fleet soon grew to seven open-top double-deck two-horse cars (four by Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon Co Ltd, two by Brown Marshall & Co Ltd and one second-hand, purchased in 1882 from Birmingham Tramways & Omnibus Co Ltd for [/FONT][FONT="]£102 10s[/FONT][FONT="]). Here (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=1733) is a picture of tramcar # 1 at Warwick. The picture is captioned "1900s" but is probably earlier. This tramcar fortunately survives in unrestored condition at the National Tramway Museum (Crich, Derbyshire, https://www.tramway.co.uk/); here is a picture: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zRycASlO.../CWcp2KFgjAA/s1600/Leamington+Warwick+021.jpg. To start with 16 horses were leased but in May 1882 45 horses were purchased for £1,406.
The Leamington & Warwick Tramways (Amendment) Order 1882 permitted LWTO to use steam power (which did not eventuate). LWTO (24 Jury St, Warwick, secretary John Sallaway) gave notice on 13 Jan 1882 of a set of bye-laws (registered with BoT on 14 Mar). By 1896 LWTO (secretary Walter Shepherd, manager George Truswell) had offices at 24 Jury St and 10 High St and a depot at 22 Coten End (all in Warwick).
LWTO was profitable in the years 1883-1900 paying dividends that ranged from 2.5% to 6.0%.
[/FONT]
Public Transport in Leamington and Warwick. Part One 1850-1900.
[Corrections, additions and comments are welcome as usual.]
[FONT="]Horse bus proprietors George and William Linney of Leamington Priors dissolved their partnership on 1 Jun 1831. This transaction is particularly remarkable because its announcement in the London Gazette of 29 Jul 1831 contains the first use in that sober journal of the word "omnibus" (the omnibus itself and the word "omnibus" having been introduced into Great Britain by George Shillibeer in 1829):
"Notice is hereby given, that the Partnership heretofore subsisting, or supposed to have subsisted, between William Linney and George Linney, of Leamington-Priors, in the County of Warwick, Omnibus-Proprietors, was dissolved by mutual consent on the 1st day of June last. — All debts owing to or by the concern will be received and paid by the said William Linney, at the Bowling-Green Inn, Church-Street, Leamington-Spa. — Witness our hands the 27th day of July 1831. William Linney. George Linney."
[/FONT]Horse buses provided the early means of transport between the two Warwickshire towns. In 1850 Abraham Denby (39 Clemens St, Leamington) was the proprietor of a Leamington – Warwick horse bus service (eight times a day Monday-Saturday and twice on Sunday). The London Gazette of 30 Apr 1858 announced the upcoming "first examination"[FONT="] of insolvent debtor Abraham Denby (former pork butcher and provision dealer of Leamington Priors). Insolvent Denby may not have been the same person as omnibus proprietor Denby. By 1875 Henry McGregor was operating a bus service between Leamington ("Crown" hotel) and Warwick ("Griffin" inn).
An "Association of Promoters of the Leamington & Warwick Tramways" gave notice on 28 Nov 1871 of intention to apply to the Board of Trade (BoT) for a provisional order authorizing the construction of a horse tramway between Leamington and Warwick. This proposal came to nothing and the Association of Promoters was wound up in 1874.
BoT finally approved the Leamington & Warwick Tramways Order 1879 but the promoters (led by James Richardson) pulled out, so on 18 Feb 1880 the Leamington & Warwick Tramways & Omnibus Co Ltd (LWTO) was established. LWTO (with capital of £60,000) awarded a contract on 14 May 1881 to John Fell (Leamington) to construct a 4 ft 8.5 in horse tramway connecting the two towns. The route followed was: Warwick (High St near Lord Leycester Hospital) – Jury St – Eastgate archway – Smith St – St Johns – Coten End – Emscote Rd – Warwick New Rd – Warwick St – the Parade – Leamington (Avenue Rd railway station). Work was completed on 17 Nov 1881 at a cost of £14,800.
The tramway was opened on 21 November 1881 with two cars. The journey between the two towns took 50 minutes. The fleet soon grew to seven open-top double-deck two-horse cars (four by Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon Co Ltd, two by Brown Marshall & Co Ltd and one second-hand, purchased in 1882 from Birmingham Tramways & Omnibus Co Ltd for [/FONT][FONT="]£102 10s[/FONT][FONT="]). Here (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=1733) is a picture of tramcar # 1 at Warwick. The picture is captioned "1900s" but is probably earlier. This tramcar fortunately survives in unrestored condition at the National Tramway Museum (Crich, Derbyshire, https://www.tramway.co.uk/); here is a picture: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zRycASlO.../CWcp2KFgjAA/s1600/Leamington+Warwick+021.jpg. To start with 16 horses were leased but in May 1882 45 horses were purchased for £1,406.
The Leamington & Warwick Tramways (Amendment) Order 1882 permitted LWTO to use steam power (which did not eventuate). LWTO (24 Jury St, Warwick, secretary John Sallaway) gave notice on 13 Jan 1882 of a set of bye-laws (registered with BoT on 14 Mar). By 1896 LWTO (secretary Walter Shepherd, manager George Truswell) had offices at 24 Jury St and 10 High St and a depot at 22 Coten End (all in Warwick).
LWTO was profitable in the years 1883-1900 paying dividends that ranged from 2.5% to 6.0%.
[/FONT]
Last edited:
Thylacine
master brummie
Mike the same thing happened even though I "went advanced". It doesn't matter - I can quickly fix up the font by editing the post.
Those directory entry entries you posted on the Startins are very useful for the "big picture". I've tried e-mailing the modern Startin Group Ltd (a car dealership) for more info on Startin in Birmingham in the 1920s. I laid it on pretty thick but I won't hold my breath.
Those directory entry entries you posted on the Startins are very useful for the "big picture". I've tried e-mailing the modern Startin Group Ltd (a car dealership) for more info on Startin in Birmingham in the 1920s. I laid it on pretty thick but I won't hold my breath.
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-03 13:15:42
Public Transport in Leamington and Warwick. Part Two 1900-1915.
[Corrections, additions and comments are welcome as usual.]
In 1900 LWTO was acquired by BET which renamed the company to Leamington & Warwick Electrical Co Ltd (LWE) in 1902 with a view to electrification of the tramway and the supply of electrical power to other consumers. For this purpose a power station was built at Emscote depot. In Feb 1905 the tramway was closed for conversion to 3 ft 6 in gauge and electrical operation, as authorized by the Warwick Tramways Order 1900 and the Leamington Tramways Order 1901. Here (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=18353) is a contemporary "memorial card" of 16 May 1905 mourning the loss of the horse tramway to "electric shock". During the conversion a temporary horse bus service was provided. The electric tramway opened on 12 Jul 1905 with a fleet of 12 Brush O26/22 cars (six of which were ex-Taunton and new in about 1902). There's a lovely picture (apparently quite early) of tramcar # 2 in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 12).
In the mean time the snappily named Brailes Shipston-on-Stour & Stratford-upon-Avon Steam Omnibus Co Ltd (BSSSO, Church St, Shipston-on-Stour, secretary G S Martin) acquired an 18-seat single-deck steam bus on 3 Sep 1903. This vehicle was made by the Straker Steam Vehicle Co Ltd (Bristol) and appeared in dark green livery. In accordance with the new Motor Car Act it was registered AB53 in Dec 1903. A 20-seat companion arrived early in 1904 (registered AB199). These two strange-looking vehicles were re-registered in Warwickshire as AC11 and AC10 respectively in Aug 1905. Before long BSSSO entered voluntary liquidation (the liquidator was Shipston auctioneer Frank Samman Parsons). The winding up was completed at the last general meeting of the company at Shipston on 30 Mar 1906. AC10 was sold to Edward Mead & Co (Chelsea Flour Mills, London) in 1906; the fate of the other steam bus is unknown. One of these unusual "road locomotives" is pictured here (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=679) in the delightful rural setting of Lower Brailes.
While the tramway was closed for upgrade, Lyon Clark, McNeill & Co (Russell St, Leamington) established the Leamington Motor Omnibus Co Ltd (LMO). The new company put a pair of Milnes-Daimler 36-seat open-top double-deck 20-25 hp motor buses (registered AC2 and AC3) into service on 26 Jun 1905, providing a Leamington – Warwick service with 30 minute frequency. These buses appeared with varnished wood bodies and red underframes. An 18-seat single-deck 18 hp "country bus" from the same manufacturer (registered AC4) arrived on 14 Jul 1905. The new vehicle (equipped with a roof rack of 10 cwt luggage capacity) began a twice daily Kenilworth – Leamington – Warwick – Barford – Wellesbourne – Stratford service. From about Aug 1905 one of the double-deckers was operating a special twice weekly (Wednesday and Saturday) Leamington (LNWR station) – Kenilworth – Warwick – Shottery service "with intervals for visiting the local shrines of interest" and luncheon served en route. On one occasion an LMO motor bus was privately hired to convey a full military band from Leamington to Tysoe and back (a 28 mile journey including the ascent and descent of Sunrising Hill). The new electric tramway out-competed the motor bus pioneer and LMO ceased operations at the end of 1905.
The horse-drawn coach made a comeback at about this time. In 1906 Edward McGregor (born about 1861 and operating from Binswood Mews, Trinity St, Leamington) was the proprietor of the "Tally Ho" which commuted daily between Leamington and Stratford in the summer months. It is pictured here (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=5194) at Charlecote. I’m not sure how long this impressive vehicle was in service. McGregor is listed at at 28 Binswood Avenue in the period 1911-1914 as livery stable keeper, jobmaster (supplier of horses, carriages and drivers for hire) and horse dealer. His son Sydney McGregor (born about 1890) followed in his fathers footsteps as jobmaster. I wonder if these McGregors are related to Henry McGregor of 1875.
[FONT="]About the end of 1907, 27-year old Robert L McCulloch (formerly traffic manager of another BET concern, Merthyr Electric Traction & Lighting Co Ltd) was appointed general manager of LWE. In Mar 1908 LWE hired from Midland Red three Brush B double-deckers (O1287, O1289, O1290) to act as feeders for the tramway and for trips to Stratford. This was after Midland Red had given up on motor buses on 5 Oct 1907. In about 1910 these became the property of LWE. O1287 and O1290 were converted to charabancs and O1289 to a single-decker which was used on a Leamington – Stratford – Shipston service. In Aug 1910 LWE purchased a Brush 20 hp "passenger and mail van" and at about this time acquired a Brush single-decker (possibly with Leeds registration U771) from Worcester Electric Traction Co Ltd (new in about 1908). By 1911 general manager McCulloch was living at "Avon Glen" (98 Emscote Rd, Warwick). On 8 Nov 1912 British Automobile Traction Co Ltd (BAT) took over the motor omnibus operations of LWE including Emscote depot. BAT agreed to protect the LWE tramway from competition provided LWE did not operate buses. On 31 Dec 1912 the LWE tramway was sold to Balfour Beatty & Co Ltd (BB) and was operated by BB subsidiary Tramways Light & Power Co Ltd (TLP) though retaining its separate identity.
[/FONT]
BAT acquired a Daimler 40 hp saloon coach (registered AC3612) in Jun 1913. The following year BAT acquired three Daimler 40 hp single-deck buses: two (registered AC29 and AC30) in May and one (registered AC36) in Sep. The four Daimlers appeared in "British" livery of saxon green with red and white lining and are believed to have carried fleet numbers D1-D4.
Soon after the outbreak of World War 1 on 28 Jul 1914 the War Department (WD) commandeered a number of BAT buses from around the country. Before long BAT decided to discontinue Leamington-based operations which were passed to Midland Red over the following few months:
Sep 1914: Shipston – Stratford service;
Oct 1914: Leamington – Coventry service;
Dec 1914: Warwick (Emscote) depot;
1915: Leamington – Stratford service.
The three newest Daimlers (AC29, AC30 and AC36) escaped military service and were transferred to the BAT branch at Albert Rd, Deal. In Sep 1916 they passed into the fleet of the new East Kent Road Car Co Ltd.
[Most of the above is from Hardy's BMMO Volume 1 with additions from various sources including: the London Gazette website; 1911 census; Kelly’s Directory of Warwickshire 1912; Bennett’s Business Directory of Warwickshire 1914; https://www.alcester.dial.pipex.com/localpast/85wn/trams.htm[FONT="]. There's scope for much more research on these early years.]
[/FONT]
Public Transport in Leamington and Warwick. Part Two 1900-1915.
[Corrections, additions and comments are welcome as usual.]
In 1900 LWTO was acquired by BET which renamed the company to Leamington & Warwick Electrical Co Ltd (LWE) in 1902 with a view to electrification of the tramway and the supply of electrical power to other consumers. For this purpose a power station was built at Emscote depot. In Feb 1905 the tramway was closed for conversion to 3 ft 6 in gauge and electrical operation, as authorized by the Warwick Tramways Order 1900 and the Leamington Tramways Order 1901. Here (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=18353) is a contemporary "memorial card" of 16 May 1905 mourning the loss of the horse tramway to "electric shock". During the conversion a temporary horse bus service was provided. The electric tramway opened on 12 Jul 1905 with a fleet of 12 Brush O26/22 cars (six of which were ex-Taunton and new in about 1902). There's a lovely picture (apparently quite early) of tramcar # 2 in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 12).
In the mean time the snappily named Brailes Shipston-on-Stour & Stratford-upon-Avon Steam Omnibus Co Ltd (BSSSO, Church St, Shipston-on-Stour, secretary G S Martin) acquired an 18-seat single-deck steam bus on 3 Sep 1903. This vehicle was made by the Straker Steam Vehicle Co Ltd (Bristol) and appeared in dark green livery. In accordance with the new Motor Car Act it was registered AB53 in Dec 1903. A 20-seat companion arrived early in 1904 (registered AB199). These two strange-looking vehicles were re-registered in Warwickshire as AC11 and AC10 respectively in Aug 1905. Before long BSSSO entered voluntary liquidation (the liquidator was Shipston auctioneer Frank Samman Parsons). The winding up was completed at the last general meeting of the company at Shipston on 30 Mar 1906. AC10 was sold to Edward Mead & Co (Chelsea Flour Mills, London) in 1906; the fate of the other steam bus is unknown. One of these unusual "road locomotives" is pictured here (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=679) in the delightful rural setting of Lower Brailes.
While the tramway was closed for upgrade, Lyon Clark, McNeill & Co (Russell St, Leamington) established the Leamington Motor Omnibus Co Ltd (LMO). The new company put a pair of Milnes-Daimler 36-seat open-top double-deck 20-25 hp motor buses (registered AC2 and AC3) into service on 26 Jun 1905, providing a Leamington – Warwick service with 30 minute frequency. These buses appeared with varnished wood bodies and red underframes. An 18-seat single-deck 18 hp "country bus" from the same manufacturer (registered AC4) arrived on 14 Jul 1905. The new vehicle (equipped with a roof rack of 10 cwt luggage capacity) began a twice daily Kenilworth – Leamington – Warwick – Barford – Wellesbourne – Stratford service. From about Aug 1905 one of the double-deckers was operating a special twice weekly (Wednesday and Saturday) Leamington (LNWR station) – Kenilworth – Warwick – Shottery service "with intervals for visiting the local shrines of interest" and luncheon served en route. On one occasion an LMO motor bus was privately hired to convey a full military band from Leamington to Tysoe and back (a 28 mile journey including the ascent and descent of Sunrising Hill). The new electric tramway out-competed the motor bus pioneer and LMO ceased operations at the end of 1905.
The horse-drawn coach made a comeback at about this time. In 1906 Edward McGregor (born about 1861 and operating from Binswood Mews, Trinity St, Leamington) was the proprietor of the "Tally Ho" which commuted daily between Leamington and Stratford in the summer months. It is pictured here (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=5194) at Charlecote. I’m not sure how long this impressive vehicle was in service. McGregor is listed at at 28 Binswood Avenue in the period 1911-1914 as livery stable keeper, jobmaster (supplier of horses, carriages and drivers for hire) and horse dealer. His son Sydney McGregor (born about 1890) followed in his fathers footsteps as jobmaster. I wonder if these McGregors are related to Henry McGregor of 1875.
[FONT="]About the end of 1907, 27-year old Robert L McCulloch (formerly traffic manager of another BET concern, Merthyr Electric Traction & Lighting Co Ltd) was appointed general manager of LWE. In Mar 1908 LWE hired from Midland Red three Brush B double-deckers (O1287, O1289, O1290) to act as feeders for the tramway and for trips to Stratford. This was after Midland Red had given up on motor buses on 5 Oct 1907. In about 1910 these became the property of LWE. O1287 and O1290 were converted to charabancs and O1289 to a single-decker which was used on a Leamington – Stratford – Shipston service. In Aug 1910 LWE purchased a Brush 20 hp "passenger and mail van" and at about this time acquired a Brush single-decker (possibly with Leeds registration U771) from Worcester Electric Traction Co Ltd (new in about 1908). By 1911 general manager McCulloch was living at "Avon Glen" (98 Emscote Rd, Warwick). On 8 Nov 1912 British Automobile Traction Co Ltd (BAT) took over the motor omnibus operations of LWE including Emscote depot. BAT agreed to protect the LWE tramway from competition provided LWE did not operate buses. On 31 Dec 1912 the LWE tramway was sold to Balfour Beatty & Co Ltd (BB) and was operated by BB subsidiary Tramways Light & Power Co Ltd (TLP) though retaining its separate identity.
[/FONT]
BAT acquired a Daimler 40 hp saloon coach (registered AC3612) in Jun 1913. The following year BAT acquired three Daimler 40 hp single-deck buses: two (registered AC29 and AC30) in May and one (registered AC36) in Sep. The four Daimlers appeared in "British" livery of saxon green with red and white lining and are believed to have carried fleet numbers D1-D4.
Soon after the outbreak of World War 1 on 28 Jul 1914 the War Department (WD) commandeered a number of BAT buses from around the country. Before long BAT decided to discontinue Leamington-based operations which were passed to Midland Red over the following few months:
Sep 1914: Shipston – Stratford service;
Oct 1914: Leamington – Coventry service;
Dec 1914: Warwick (Emscote) depot;
1915: Leamington – Stratford service.
The three newest Daimlers (AC29, AC30 and AC36) escaped military service and were transferred to the BAT branch at Albert Rd, Deal. In Sep 1916 they passed into the fleet of the new East Kent Road Car Co Ltd.
[Most of the above is from Hardy's BMMO Volume 1 with additions from various sources including: the London Gazette website; 1911 census; Kelly’s Directory of Warwickshire 1912; Bennett’s Business Directory of Warwickshire 1914; https://www.alcester.dial.pipex.com/localpast/85wn/trams.htm[FONT="]. There's scope for much more research on these early years.]
[/FONT]
Last edited:
Lloyd
master brummie
Indeed 1911 census has Robert McCulloch (age 31, manager of electric tramway co, born Coatbridge Lanarkshire) at 98 Emscote Road, with his wife Christina (33, born Paisley Renfrewshire - they had been married 11 years) and daughter Constance (5, born Merthyr Tydfil, Glamorganshire - possibly indicating Robert's previous employer)
Also in the 1911, Edward McGregor (50, a Jobmaster and Horse dealer born Leamington) is at 38 Binswood Avenue as you have above, with wife Eliza Jane (nee Ham, 48, born Westbury, Somerset - they married 1st quarter 1885 in Wells) and son Sydney McGregor (21, also a jobmaster[A person who supplied carriages, horses and drivers for hire] and 'helps in business'). The census states there were two children, both surviving, but I have no detail on the other.
The London Gazette for January 5 1906 has:
In the Matter of the Companies Acts, 1862 to 19CO, and
in the Matter of THE BRAILES SHIPSTON-ON-STOUR
AND STRATFORD-UPON-AVON STEAM
OMNIBUS COMPANY Limited. (In Voluntary
Liquidation.)
NOTICE is hereby given, that the creditors of the
above named Company, are required, on.or before
the 31st day of January, 1906, to send their names and
addresses, and the particulars of their debts or claims,
and the names and addresses of their Solicitors (if
any), to Mr. Frank Samman Parson, of Shipston-on-
Stour, Auctioneer, the Liquidator of the said Company,
and, if so required, by notice, in writing, from the said
Liquidator, are, by their Solicitors, to come in and prove
their said debts or claims at such time and place as
shall be specified in such notice, or in default thereof
they will be excluded from the benefit of any distribution
made before such debts are proved.—Dated this 1st day
of January, 1906.
HANCOCK, SIMPSON, and HANCOCK. Shipston-on-Stour,
Solicitors to the Liquidator.
and on February 23rd:
NOTICE is hereby given, that a General Meeting
of the above named Company will be held at
the offices of Messrs Hancock, Simpson, and Hancock,
Shipston-on-Stour, on Friday, the 30th day of March,
1906, at 3 in the afternoon precisely, for the purpose
of having the Liquidator's accounts, showing the manner
in which the winding up has been conducted, and .the
property of the Company disposed of, laid before such
Meeting, and of hearing any explanation that may be
given by the Liquidator; and also of determining, by
resolution, as to the disposal of the books, accounts, and'
other documents of the Company and of the Liquidator
thereof.—Dated this 21st day of February, 1906.
HANCOCK, SIMPSON, and HANCOCK, Shipston-
on-Stour, Solicitors for the Liquidator.
Also in the 1911, Edward McGregor (50, a Jobmaster and Horse dealer born Leamington) is at 38 Binswood Avenue as you have above, with wife Eliza Jane (nee Ham, 48, born Westbury, Somerset - they married 1st quarter 1885 in Wells) and son Sydney McGregor (21, also a jobmaster[A person who supplied carriages, horses and drivers for hire] and 'helps in business'). The census states there were two children, both surviving, but I have no detail on the other.
The London Gazette for January 5 1906 has:
In the Matter of the Companies Acts, 1862 to 19CO, and
in the Matter of THE BRAILES SHIPSTON-ON-STOUR
AND STRATFORD-UPON-AVON STEAM
OMNIBUS COMPANY Limited. (In Voluntary
Liquidation.)
NOTICE is hereby given, that the creditors of the
above named Company, are required, on.or before
the 31st day of January, 1906, to send their names and
addresses, and the particulars of their debts or claims,
and the names and addresses of their Solicitors (if
any), to Mr. Frank Samman Parson, of Shipston-on-
Stour, Auctioneer, the Liquidator of the said Company,
and, if so required, by notice, in writing, from the said
Liquidator, are, by their Solicitors, to come in and prove
their said debts or claims at such time and place as
shall be specified in such notice, or in default thereof
they will be excluded from the benefit of any distribution
made before such debts are proved.—Dated this 1st day
of January, 1906.
HANCOCK, SIMPSON, and HANCOCK. Shipston-on-Stour,
Solicitors to the Liquidator.
and on February 23rd:
NOTICE is hereby given, that a General Meeting
of the above named Company will be held at
the offices of Messrs Hancock, Simpson, and Hancock,
Shipston-on-Stour, on Friday, the 30th day of March,
1906, at 3 in the afternoon precisely, for the purpose
of having the Liquidator's accounts, showing the manner
in which the winding up has been conducted, and .the
property of the Company disposed of, laid before such
Meeting, and of hearing any explanation that may be
given by the Liquidator; and also of determining, by
resolution, as to the disposal of the books, accounts, and'
other documents of the Company and of the Liquidator
thereof.—Dated this 21st day of February, 1906.
HANCOCK, SIMPSON, and HANCOCK, Shipston-
on-Stour, Solicitors for the Liquidator.
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-03 09:05:43
Leamington and Warwick Part Two 1900-1915. Additional information.
The WW1 handover to Midland Red of BAT bus operations in and around Leamington and Warwick happened over a few months beginning in Sep 1914:
Sep 1914: Shipston – Stratford service;
Oct 1914: Leamington – Coventry service;
Dec 1914: Warwick (Emscote) depot;
1915: Leamington – Stratford service.
It would be interesting to learn the detailed history of the buses seized by the War Department in WW1. Many of these served with honour in the European battlefields as we see from contemporary photographs. Some were returned (generally in clapped out condition) after the war, not necessarily to their original owners! I wonder how much information survives in government archives? [This is a job for a braver soul than I. For all I know it has already been done.]
Leamington and Warwick Part Two 1900-1915. Additional information.
The WW1 handover to Midland Red of BAT bus operations in and around Leamington and Warwick happened over a few months beginning in Sep 1914:
Sep 1914: Shipston – Stratford service;
Oct 1914: Leamington – Coventry service;
Dec 1914: Warwick (Emscote) depot;
1915: Leamington – Stratford service.
It would be interesting to learn the detailed history of the buses seized by the War Department in WW1. Many of these served with honour in the European battlefields as we see from contemporary photographs. Some were returned (generally in clapped out condition) after the war, not necessarily to their original owners! I wonder how much information survives in government archives? [This is a job for a braver soul than I. For all I know it has already been done.]
Lloyd
master brummie
(N.B. I have also added to my previous post above)
Re WW1 military impressed vehicles.
I don't know what information survives, but in some cases (London General Omnibus Co's LGOC 'B' types for instance) they were returned to original owners and in others just sold off by auction. Many budding transport and dealership companies were started up by entrepreneurial former soldiers who saw the opportunity of making a living from commercial vehicles, either by owning one as a one-man transport company or as some did by acquiring land and buying in bulk at the auctions then reselling at marked-up prices from their own premises, sometimes (but not always) after some form of overhaul had been given.
Midland Red of course bought a number of ex-Army Tilling-Stevens TS3 lorries, most of which were rebuilt as buses later. I expect the lines of vehicles were closely inspected and the best picked to buy, although some were just dismantled for spares. The American FWD came from a miltary auction, too.
Leyland Motors Ltd, in Lancashire, tried to repurchase as many of its own manufacture vehicles as it could, which it then thoroughly overhauled and resold with guarantees and after-sales service, a move which earned them a lot of respect (and profit) from the road transport industry. The large numbers of ex-military vehicles which flooded the roads in the post WW1 years - and the fact they were fit for good and long service even after a war career, and needed far less 'maintenance' than a live animal - effectively killed of the use of horses for road traction.
Here is a picture of a FWD chassis almost identical to the Midland Red one, in the Science Museum large exhibilts store at Wroughton (nr Swindon, Wilts) - there are a few days a year this store is open, but this former hangar is usually not, it is the large vehicles store and has other gems as an AEC Q chassis, a Brighton Trolleybus and a Swindon wartime Guy Arab utility bus there as well.
Re WW1 military impressed vehicles.
I don't know what information survives, but in some cases (London General Omnibus Co's LGOC 'B' types for instance) they were returned to original owners and in others just sold off by auction. Many budding transport and dealership companies were started up by entrepreneurial former soldiers who saw the opportunity of making a living from commercial vehicles, either by owning one as a one-man transport company or as some did by acquiring land and buying in bulk at the auctions then reselling at marked-up prices from their own premises, sometimes (but not always) after some form of overhaul had been given.
Midland Red of course bought a number of ex-Army Tilling-Stevens TS3 lorries, most of which were rebuilt as buses later. I expect the lines of vehicles were closely inspected and the best picked to buy, although some were just dismantled for spares. The American FWD came from a miltary auction, too.
Leyland Motors Ltd, in Lancashire, tried to repurchase as many of its own manufacture vehicles as it could, which it then thoroughly overhauled and resold with guarantees and after-sales service, a move which earned them a lot of respect (and profit) from the road transport industry. The large numbers of ex-military vehicles which flooded the roads in the post WW1 years - and the fact they were fit for good and long service even after a war career, and needed far less 'maintenance' than a live animal - effectively killed of the use of horses for road traction.
Here is a picture of a FWD chassis almost identical to the Midland Red one, in the Science Museum large exhibilts store at Wroughton (nr Swindon, Wilts) - there are a few days a year this store is open, but this former hangar is usually not, it is the large vehicles store and has other gems as an AEC Q chassis, a Brighton Trolleybus and a Swindon wartime Guy Arab utility bus there as well.
Last edited:
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-03 14:59:10
Public Transport in Leamington and Warwick. Part Three 1915-1930.
[Corrections, additions and comments are welcome as usual.]
Passenger traffic on the LWE tramway reached its peak in 1919. In 1921 a new tramcar was added to the fleet. This was numbered 14 (skipping over unlucky 13!). The enthusiast might relish a full description: English Electric vestibuled open-top four-wheel tramcar with transverse wooden seats on both decks, all mounted on a Peckham 7 ft wheelbase truck with Metropolitan-Vickers electrical equipment including electro-mechanical track brakes and Westinghouse controllers (we are told everything but the seating capacity). It was one of four similar cars intended for Cheltenham and District Light Railway Co (CDLR) but for some reason this one was diverted to Leamington. I suspect that CDLR had some connection with the Balfour Beatty group (it later spawned Cheltenham District Traction Co Ltd which was or became a Balfour Beatty company). At some stage the original twelve Brush cars were fitted with semi-vestibules but a low bridge at Milverton precluded the installation of top covers. In Nov 1921 the parent company TLP (see Part Two) was renamed to the Midland Counties Electrical Supply Co Ltd (MCES).
In 1927 a new competitor came on the scene. Sponsored by the worthies of Shakespeare’s birthplace Stratford-upon-Avon, Messrs S H Joiner and G H Grail established a partnership trading as Stratford-upon-Avon Motor Services (SMS). SMS began humbly enough on 1 Apr 1927, putting on the road a Chevrolet LM bus (chassis number 15374 registered UE3403) with B14F body by the otherwise unknown Allen (Brigg). The initial service was Stratford – Shottery. It appears that one of the purposes of the new firm was to provide opposition to Midland Red, but LWE was the first to feel the heat. In Oct 1927 SMS was granted a licence for a Stratford – Leamington service and although this was in direct competition with the LWE tramway no protection was required or offered. SMS by this time were operating seven Chevrolet LMs; four Thornycroft A2s were added to the fleet in 1928. LWE's immediate response was to reduce their fares but sterner action was required to meet the new competition.
In Feb 1928 LWE put four 1927 Tilling-Stevens B10B 30-seat buses into service on the tramway route. These buses were borrowed from another Balfour Beatty company, Midland General Omnibus Co Ltd (MGO). They were registered RA4002-4005 (MGO fleet numbers 98, 97, 54, 59) and were probably given LWE fleet numbers 1-4. More buses were acquired in Aug and Sep 1928. These were Reo FBX 20-seaters equipped for driver-only operation and were used to open up a service via Old Warwick Rd and Myton. They were probably assigned fleet numbers 5-7 (registered UE7085-7087 with chassis numbers 759, 757, 756).
Meanwhile legal moves were afoot behind the scenes, in which LWE was no doubt supported by the Leamington and Warwick local authorities. LWE first submitted a bill to Parliament which would permit the use of trolleybuses but this was rejected after local opposition. However they did obtain the Leamington and Warwick Traction Act 1929 (19 & 20 George 5 c xliv) which received royal assent on 10 May 1929. This involved the discontinuation of the tramway in favour of motor bus services of which LWE was granted a monopoly. Consequently LWE purchased SMS on 15 Mar 1929. SMS maintained its separate identity until 4 May 1931 when it was registered as a limited company with the title Stratford-upon-Avon Blue Motors Ltd (SBM). SBM was now quite separate from LWE, operating as a subsidiary of MGO which was in turn owned by MCES (all under the Balfour Beatty umbrella).
["Stratford Blue" (as SBM was affectionately known) has a fascinating history and a long involvement with Midland Red by which it was ultimately completely absorbed on 1 Jan 1971. Peter Gould’s excellent website (https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/) has a fleet history (https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/stratford.htm) and fleet list (https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/stratford1.htm).]
Meanwhile the main tramway service was withdrawn on 10 Feb 1930, workmen’s cars continuing until 16 Aug 1930.
The Tilling-Stevens B10Bs had been returned to MGO at the end of 1929. To maintain the bus services LWE had taken delivery in Sep 1929 of six Daimler CF6 buses with Brush B32F bodies. These appeared in green and cream livery and were given fleet numbers 8-14 (registered UE9322, 9323, 9321, 9326, 9324, 9325 with chassis numbers 7316, 7322, 7320, 7318, 7324, 7326). Another six identical vehicles were delivered at the end of Jan 1930. These were given fleet numbers 15-20 (registered UE9912, 9913, 9915, 9914, 9911, 9916 with chassis numbers 7330, 7328, 7334, 7332, 7338, 7336). On 15 Feb 1930 a Daimler CF6 double-decker was trialled, but the Milverton railway bridge was too low for it.
These Daimler CF6s provide us with the earliest pictures (that I know of) of LWE buses. The National Tramway Museum (NTM, Crich, Derbyshire) contains the following pictures in its extensive photographic archive (not top quality but beggars can’t be choosers!):
UE9321 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9850/);
UE9324 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9849/);
UE9912 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9851/);
UE9914 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9847/);
UE9916 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9846/) posted above by Lloyd (#93).
And here is U9326 (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=7341) pictured in the 1930s in Victoria Terrace (Leamington).
Tram enthusiasts will also find pictures on the NTM webiste of LWE trams. Go to the NTM photograph catalogue (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/85/tramway-photo-library) and do a search on keywords "Leamington" or "Warwick".
Does anyone know of pictures of earlier Leamington and Warwick (motor or horse) buses or trams?
[Incidentally the NTM library has an extensive collection of materials relating to Midland Red. Go to the catalogue (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/22/tramway-museum-library-databases) and do a search of the library catalogue on keyword "Midland Red". NTM seems to have inherited the books and papers of the eminent public transport historian Alec G Jenson. The library also has a large collection of works by the equally eminent Peter L Hardy. Anyone seriously researching Midland Red history would be amply repaid by a visit to this great public transport library.]
[Sorry this is so long! Part Four 1930-1937 to follow.]
[Some purist Brummies might question the inclusion of all this material on places outside Birmingham. My excuse (apart from its intrinsic interest) is of course the Midland Red connection.]
Public Transport in Leamington and Warwick. Part Three 1915-1930.
[Corrections, additions and comments are welcome as usual.]
Passenger traffic on the LWE tramway reached its peak in 1919. In 1921 a new tramcar was added to the fleet. This was numbered 14 (skipping over unlucky 13!). The enthusiast might relish a full description: English Electric vestibuled open-top four-wheel tramcar with transverse wooden seats on both decks, all mounted on a Peckham 7 ft wheelbase truck with Metropolitan-Vickers electrical equipment including electro-mechanical track brakes and Westinghouse controllers (we are told everything but the seating capacity). It was one of four similar cars intended for Cheltenham and District Light Railway Co (CDLR) but for some reason this one was diverted to Leamington. I suspect that CDLR had some connection with the Balfour Beatty group (it later spawned Cheltenham District Traction Co Ltd which was or became a Balfour Beatty company). At some stage the original twelve Brush cars were fitted with semi-vestibules but a low bridge at Milverton precluded the installation of top covers. In Nov 1921 the parent company TLP (see Part Two) was renamed to the Midland Counties Electrical Supply Co Ltd (MCES).
In 1927 a new competitor came on the scene. Sponsored by the worthies of Shakespeare’s birthplace Stratford-upon-Avon, Messrs S H Joiner and G H Grail established a partnership trading as Stratford-upon-Avon Motor Services (SMS). SMS began humbly enough on 1 Apr 1927, putting on the road a Chevrolet LM bus (chassis number 15374 registered UE3403) with B14F body by the otherwise unknown Allen (Brigg). The initial service was Stratford – Shottery. It appears that one of the purposes of the new firm was to provide opposition to Midland Red, but LWE was the first to feel the heat. In Oct 1927 SMS was granted a licence for a Stratford – Leamington service and although this was in direct competition with the LWE tramway no protection was required or offered. SMS by this time were operating seven Chevrolet LMs; four Thornycroft A2s were added to the fleet in 1928. LWE's immediate response was to reduce their fares but sterner action was required to meet the new competition.
In Feb 1928 LWE put four 1927 Tilling-Stevens B10B 30-seat buses into service on the tramway route. These buses were borrowed from another Balfour Beatty company, Midland General Omnibus Co Ltd (MGO). They were registered RA4002-4005 (MGO fleet numbers 98, 97, 54, 59) and were probably given LWE fleet numbers 1-4. More buses were acquired in Aug and Sep 1928. These were Reo FBX 20-seaters equipped for driver-only operation and were used to open up a service via Old Warwick Rd and Myton. They were probably assigned fleet numbers 5-7 (registered UE7085-7087 with chassis numbers 759, 757, 756).
Meanwhile legal moves were afoot behind the scenes, in which LWE was no doubt supported by the Leamington and Warwick local authorities. LWE first submitted a bill to Parliament which would permit the use of trolleybuses but this was rejected after local opposition. However they did obtain the Leamington and Warwick Traction Act 1929 (19 & 20 George 5 c xliv) which received royal assent on 10 May 1929. This involved the discontinuation of the tramway in favour of motor bus services of which LWE was granted a monopoly. Consequently LWE purchased SMS on 15 Mar 1929. SMS maintained its separate identity until 4 May 1931 when it was registered as a limited company with the title Stratford-upon-Avon Blue Motors Ltd (SBM). SBM was now quite separate from LWE, operating as a subsidiary of MGO which was in turn owned by MCES (all under the Balfour Beatty umbrella).
["Stratford Blue" (as SBM was affectionately known) has a fascinating history and a long involvement with Midland Red by which it was ultimately completely absorbed on 1 Jan 1971. Peter Gould’s excellent website (https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/) has a fleet history (https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/stratford.htm) and fleet list (https://www.petergould.co.uk/local_transport_history/fleetlists/stratford1.htm).]
Meanwhile the main tramway service was withdrawn on 10 Feb 1930, workmen’s cars continuing until 16 Aug 1930.
The Tilling-Stevens B10Bs had been returned to MGO at the end of 1929. To maintain the bus services LWE had taken delivery in Sep 1929 of six Daimler CF6 buses with Brush B32F bodies. These appeared in green and cream livery and were given fleet numbers 8-14 (registered UE9322, 9323, 9321, 9326, 9324, 9325 with chassis numbers 7316, 7322, 7320, 7318, 7324, 7326). Another six identical vehicles were delivered at the end of Jan 1930. These were given fleet numbers 15-20 (registered UE9912, 9913, 9915, 9914, 9911, 9916 with chassis numbers 7330, 7328, 7334, 7332, 7338, 7336). On 15 Feb 1930 a Daimler CF6 double-decker was trialled, but the Milverton railway bridge was too low for it.
These Daimler CF6s provide us with the earliest pictures (that I know of) of LWE buses. The National Tramway Museum (NTM, Crich, Derbyshire) contains the following pictures in its extensive photographic archive (not top quality but beggars can’t be choosers!):
UE9321 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9850/);
UE9324 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9849/);
UE9912 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9851/);
UE9914 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9847/);
UE9916 (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9846/) posted above by Lloyd (#93).
And here is U9326 (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=7341) pictured in the 1930s in Victoria Terrace (Leamington).
Tram enthusiasts will also find pictures on the NTM webiste of LWE trams. Go to the NTM photograph catalogue (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/85/tramway-photo-library) and do a search on keywords "Leamington" or "Warwick".
Does anyone know of pictures of earlier Leamington and Warwick (motor or horse) buses or trams?
[Incidentally the NTM library has an extensive collection of materials relating to Midland Red. Go to the catalogue (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/22/tramway-museum-library-databases) and do a search of the library catalogue on keyword "Midland Red". NTM seems to have inherited the books and papers of the eminent public transport historian Alec G Jenson. The library also has a large collection of works by the equally eminent Peter L Hardy. Anyone seriously researching Midland Red history would be amply repaid by a visit to this great public transport library.]
[Sorry this is so long! Part Four 1930-1937 to follow.]
[Some purist Brummies might question the inclusion of all this material on places outside Birmingham. My excuse (apart from its intrinsic interest) is of course the Midland Red connection.]
Last edited:
Thylacine
master brummie
2010-04-03 16:44:14
Public Transport in Leamington and Warwick. Part Four 1930-1937.
[Corrections, additions and comments are welcome as usual.]
At the end of 1934 two of the LWE Reo FBXs single-deckers (UE7085 and UE7086) were disposed of. At some time the remaining Reo FBX (UE7087) was converted into a lorry.
On 28 Jun 1935 Midland Red purchased from MCES the whole of the issued share capital of LWE, which was renamed to Leamington & Warwick Transport Co Ltd (LWT) on 30 Oct 1935. LWT capital was reduced from £100,000 to £50,000 about this time.
On 17 May 1929 the Red House Garage Co Ltd (RHG, Coventry) had begun Coventry – Leamington and Coventry – Warwick motor bus services. Midland Red, which was in a particularly aggressive phase of expansion in these years, acquired these services on 1 Mar 1936. RHG itself appears to have survived as a coach operator and motor garage business (more information on this point would be welcome). Two of the buses used by RHG on these services were acquired by LWT. They were Maudslay ML3s with 32-seat bodies new in 1929. They were given LWT fleet numbers 2-3 (registrations VC1619 and 2476 with chassis numbers 5413 and 4773). Three other ex-RHG Maudslay ML buses with B32F bodies passed at first to SBM (fleet numbers 17, 18, 23) but early in 1937 they too came to LWT. They received LWT fleet numbers 5-7 (registrations WK9631, VC7801, WK9708 with chassis numbers 4518, 5651, 4481). Those with WK registrations were new in 1929, the other one in 1931. There is a picture of VC7801 here (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9846/).
Finally on 30 Sep 1937 the last LWT "green bus" returned to the depot. From 1 Oct 1937 Midland Red took over LWT services and its motor bus fleet. LWT survived as a non-operating Midland Red subsidiary. Eleven of the twelve surviving Daimlers (fleet numbers 8, 10-12, 14-20) and the five Maudslays (fleet numbers 2-3, 5-7) were sold to W T Bird (Stratford) for scrap. The remaining Daimler (UE9323 fleet number 9) went to SBM (fleet number 23) where it lasted for another twelve months. The old Reo FBX lorry (UE7087) was also disposed of about this time.
As Lloyd described above (post #93) the takeover imposed special conditions on Midland Red. New Midland Red SONs and DONs were used and separately rostered crews were employed. Protective fares were charged on through services running over the former tramway routes, the additional revenue going to LWT. The ghostly LWT was hard to exorcise because it had inherited the statutory powers conferred on LWE by the Leamington and Warwick Traction Act 1929. LWT was eventually dissolved by a members liquidation in 1988, and the Leamington and Warwick Traction Act 1929 was repealed in 1995!
Addenda:
Midland Red began to use the ex-LWTO depot at Warwick (Emscote) on 5 Dec 1914. See Part Two 1900-1915. Emscote (whose depot code WK was not official) was used by Midland Red until a depot at Leamington (Old Warwick Rd) was opened in Apr 1922. This depot (code LN) was one of the earliest purpose-built garages. After the Midland Red takeover of LWT services in 1937 Emscote depot was again used to house the overflow from Leamington. See Midland Red Volume 2 (pages 154 and 174).
Public Transport in Leamington and Warwick. Part Four 1930-1937.
[Corrections, additions and comments are welcome as usual.]
At the end of 1934 two of the LWE Reo FBXs single-deckers (UE7085 and UE7086) were disposed of. At some time the remaining Reo FBX (UE7087) was converted into a lorry.
On 28 Jun 1935 Midland Red purchased from MCES the whole of the issued share capital of LWE, which was renamed to Leamington & Warwick Transport Co Ltd (LWT) on 30 Oct 1935. LWT capital was reduced from £100,000 to £50,000 about this time.
On 17 May 1929 the Red House Garage Co Ltd (RHG, Coventry) had begun Coventry – Leamington and Coventry – Warwick motor bus services. Midland Red, which was in a particularly aggressive phase of expansion in these years, acquired these services on 1 Mar 1936. RHG itself appears to have survived as a coach operator and motor garage business (more information on this point would be welcome). Two of the buses used by RHG on these services were acquired by LWT. They were Maudslay ML3s with 32-seat bodies new in 1929. They were given LWT fleet numbers 2-3 (registrations VC1619 and 2476 with chassis numbers 5413 and 4773). Three other ex-RHG Maudslay ML buses with B32F bodies passed at first to SBM (fleet numbers 17, 18, 23) but early in 1937 they too came to LWT. They received LWT fleet numbers 5-7 (registrations WK9631, VC7801, WK9708 with chassis numbers 4518, 5651, 4481). Those with WK registrations were new in 1929, the other one in 1931. There is a picture of VC7801 here (https://www.tramway.co.uk/our-collections/87/photo-library-picture/9846/).
Finally on 30 Sep 1937 the last LWT "green bus" returned to the depot. From 1 Oct 1937 Midland Red took over LWT services and its motor bus fleet. LWT survived as a non-operating Midland Red subsidiary. Eleven of the twelve surviving Daimlers (fleet numbers 8, 10-12, 14-20) and the five Maudslays (fleet numbers 2-3, 5-7) were sold to W T Bird (Stratford) for scrap. The remaining Daimler (UE9323 fleet number 9) went to SBM (fleet number 23) where it lasted for another twelve months. The old Reo FBX lorry (UE7087) was also disposed of about this time.
As Lloyd described above (post #93) the takeover imposed special conditions on Midland Red. New Midland Red SONs and DONs were used and separately rostered crews were employed. Protective fares were charged on through services running over the former tramway routes, the additional revenue going to LWT. The ghostly LWT was hard to exorcise because it had inherited the statutory powers conferred on LWE by the Leamington and Warwick Traction Act 1929. LWT was eventually dissolved by a members liquidation in 1988, and the Leamington and Warwick Traction Act 1929 was repealed in 1995!
Addenda:
Midland Red began to use the ex-LWTO depot at Warwick (Emscote) on 5 Dec 1914. See Part Two 1900-1915. Emscote (whose depot code WK was not official) was used by Midland Red until a depot at Leamington (Old Warwick Rd) was opened in Apr 1922. This depot (code LN) was one of the earliest purpose-built garages. After the Midland Red takeover of LWT services in 1937 Emscote depot was again used to house the overflow from Leamington. See Midland Red Volume 2 (pages 154 and 174).
Last edited:
Thylacine
master brummie
It pays to keep your tram tickets!
On 3 Sep 2005 Paddington Ticket Auctions (https://www.paddingtonticketauctions.co.uk/) sold a Leamington & Warwick Tramways & Omnibus Co Ltd 1d white geographical (eight named stages) punch-type ticket for [FONT="]£[/FONT]55.
That's about 9% interest per annum compounded over 110 years. Not a bad investment!
On 3 Sep 2005 Paddington Ticket Auctions (https://www.paddingtonticketauctions.co.uk/) sold a Leamington & Warwick Tramways & Omnibus Co Ltd 1d white geographical (eight named stages) punch-type ticket for [FONT="]£[/FONT]55.
That's about 9% interest per annum compounded over 110 years. Not a bad investment!
