Back to backs in Ladywood

[Astoness]

Lyn
There is a 1950s map already atm post 4

hi mike...cant see a map on post 4

lyn

 

[mikejee]

Sorry Lyn. that should read post 48

 

[Grassy Bank]

Hi Lyn, thanks for your interest. Since I posted I have found some more info. My initial thoughts on the pork butcher idea have been blown out the water as I followed a wrong lead. On checking an old map of 1888 the shape of the bank is very different. I had assumed that it was always a bank but it is clear that back then it was a yard with an high retaining wall alongside the railway line and a gate, off Monument Rd next to the end building which was a cafe/dining room no 71, shown as a fence behind the bill posters wooden ladder support frame in the right corner. The bridge spanned the railway and canal and the next building on the far side is the Bridge Inn no 73 so I believe the yard was probably no 72. I know that the area was unstable and I think the yard may have only lasted around 30-40 yrs before being reduced to a bank and the wall demolished. Further remedial work took place in 1957/58 when an house alongside the bank was demolished and a new corner wall built along with a huge concrete supporting block. So the question is what business was no 72? I think it could have been to do with horses, blacksmith, Hansom cab storage yard/stable. My 1879 Post Office Directory has no mention and shows the buildings were still to be built/completed, my 1908 Kelly's has no mention of no 72 or any other edition afterwards. I have a 1923 aerial photo that shows the bank in place and a Godfrey map of 1918 still showing the original so the development must have taken place between these dates. But really I'm trying to find any mention of no 72 between the gap of 1879 and 1908. Sorry to have gone on but I wanted to give as much detail as possible. Hope someone out there can come up with the goods.

Thanks,

Colin

 

[Astoness]

Hi Lyn, thanks for your interest. Since I posted I have found some more info. My initial thoughts on the pork butcher idea have been blown out the water as I followed a wrong lead. On checking an old map of 1888 the shape of the bank is very different. I had assumed that it was always a bank but it is clear that back then it was a yard with an high retaining wall alongside the railway line and a gate, off Monument Rd next to the end building which was a cafe/dining room no 71, shown as a fence behind the bill posters wooden ladder support frame in the right corner. The bridge spanned the railway and canal and the next building on the far side is the Bridge Inn no 73 so I believe the yard was probably no 72. I know that the area was unstable and I think the yard may have only lasted around 30-40 yrs before being reduced to a bank and the wall demolished. Further remedial work took place in 1957/58 when an house alongside the bank was demolished and a new corner wall built along with a huge concrete supporting block. So the question is what business was no 72? I think it could have been to do with horses, blacksmith, Hansom cab storage yard/stable. My 1879 Post Office Directory has no mention and shows the buildings were still to be built/completed, my 1908 Kelly's has no mention of no 72 or any other edition afterwards. I have a 1923 aerial photo that shows the bank in place and a Godfrey map of 1918 still showing the original so the development must have taken place between these dates. But really I'm trying to find any mention of no 72 between the gap of 1879 and 1908. Sorry to have gone on but I wanted to give as much detail as possible. Hope someone out there can come up with the goods.

Thanks,

Colin
View attachment 182317View attachment 182318View attachment 182319

hi col..you have been busy...just going to study your latest findings and hope some of our other members can join in ...

lyn

 

[Astoness]

hi col just an aside..dont know if you are aware of the scottish maps...great little tool and you can go anywhere you like...the idea is to get up an old map of where you are interested in ie shakespeare road and by moving the blue dot the map will fade in and out to show us what is there now..link below and i have put it on shakespeare road..lyn

Georeferenced Maps - Map images - National Library of Scotland

 

[Grassy Bank]

Many thanks Lyn, a very useful tool indeed and I'll certainly be using it in future. It's strange that my last 20 yrs at work was on the railways and I passed the bank many times, it is still there fenced off but overgrown and the row of sleepers supporting the bank are slowing breaking away which I'm sure will give way before long, the huge concrete support block is also still doing its job. I read that B'ham council are embarking on a £2.2 billion regeneration of the Ladywood area with private sector partners so maybe this last remnant of my childhood and beyond may finally disappear.
Colin

 

[Astoness]

colin i know you are trying to find out what business was at no 72 ..what years are you looking for

lyn

 

[Grassy Bank]

colin i know you are trying to find out what business was at no 72 ..what years are you looking for

lyn

Hi Lyn, from the beginning around 1880 up to whenever the yard disappeared and was reduced to a bank which I guess to be around 1920 ish as my 1918 map shows it still a yard but my 1923 photo shows it as a bank.
Colin

 

[David7]

Welcome to the forum. I assume that the full address is 1 back 101 Ladywood Road (the Road possibly being just a squiggle. Below are two maps from c1950 (it was still there then) and c1889 showing its position.
I have moved this to the streets and neighborhoods section

View attachment 153986View attachment 153987

Hi Mike. where did you get the OS map of Ladywood from in post 37? I have found a few online but not as good detail. In particular I am looking for Nelson Street
Regards
David

 

[mikejee]

David. Both were from the oldmaps site, are are no longer available. The 1880s map can be seen on the national library of scotland site at https://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=...765&layers=70&b=1&z=0&point=52.48213,-1.89866. It is hoped that eventually that site will also hav ethe later maps, but these are not yet available there

 

[David7]

Thanks for the speedy reply Mike. The NLS maps are what I have been using but they don't have the same detail as the map you posted ie street numbers and better building detail. The good thing about the NLS maps is the transparency overlay slider which allows you to see how the area looks on a current map. My old house in Nelson Street where I was born, is now part of the new Nelson Street School playing fields. I have two NLS maps of Nelson Street, 1938 and 1956, neither look quite right, not as I remember the layout and neither have the house numbers as is the case with your map. I will go back to the NLS site to see if I may have overlooked a map. I live in Scotland and I have a link to the NLS maps on our village website.
Best regards
David

 

[mikejee]

The only OS maps with numbering are the post WW2 ones. The MLS do have these for Scotland and for most of London, together with a small area around Brighton, but have not yet scanned other areas

 

[David7]

The original poster started this thread 12 years ago so I hope this post is in the right place and of some relevance.

I was born at 4/91 Nelson Street and looking at some old photos I have only just discovered that although our address was always stated as 4/91 Nelson St., Parade. the path that served the row of 3 or 4 back houses actually had a name "Derby Place"? The photos are of my house next door Grandfather with creepers covering the wall and other surrounding houses. Paths are made of house bricks, surprisingly a lot of windows are open, the shed is unbelievable and yet my father dismantled it and took it to the new house we moved to circa 1956. The bedroom window above the shed is where my father said he almost through me out of one night when as a baby I wouldn't stop crying but he sang The Skye Boat Song to me and "thankfully" I fell asleep as opposed to falling through the window Many years later we took Mom & Dad to Skye for a holiday. The rent book is interesting 8/9.5 per week about 42.5p, two bedrooms and you were allowed 4.5 people to stay there. Baths were once a week on Friday in an oval shaped zinc bath in front of the fire, filled by boiling water in pans on the stove. Toilets were in the yard about 100 yards away. In one of the photos I am riding on a wooden train made by my Gt Grandfather. The house was demolished in the sixties and by overlaying old and new maps, the site of my house now forms a corner of the new Nelson Street School playing fields.

I have a couple of old maps of the area 1938 and I think 1956 but neither seem correct and as I recall the layout. I was beginning to think it was my memory that was at fault but looking at the photos my memories are correct. If I can find an accurate map early 50's I can maybe assemble a document with the photos showing the orientation of the photo.
David

 

[David7]

I have attached a 1955 map of Ridley street, 7 back of 10 (10 is on Ridley Street) No 7 behind.

Hello Linda, would you be willing to share a section of your map covering Nelson Street, the area I am interested in is enclosed in red on the attached map which does not have the same detail as your map and it is also incorrect as to where buildings and structures are? I have a lot of old photos of my house and my intention is to reference the map with the photos and indicate the angle at which the photos were taken. I know I am a sad person with nothing better to do on dark nights
David

 

[MWS]

I think you're highlighting a house at the back of Garbett St. This is the 1950 map with 91 at the very bottom (purple arrow), pink arrow points to 4 back 91. The entrance to the backs is between 91 and 93, and no. 2 is labelled as 2 back 93, the other 5 back of 91. And I'd say that the house to the left of your second photo was 6 back 101...

 

[Dionysius//88]

Hi all
I was born and lived the first five years of my life in St Marks Street, Ladywood. My Nan lived in Alexander Street. Even now, 50 years later I can clearly remember the layout of the back to back houses, the yards, the alleys and the streets, but has anyone got pictures of the area from those days (1955 to around 1961). I can remember mom, 'aunty' rose and 'aunty' hilda doing the washing in the scrub house at the end of the yard on a monday morning, with the dolly, the blue cubes and the large wringer. I remember the toilets in the yard (you learnt to whistle from an early age) and the newspaper ripped into squares hanging on the back of the toilet door. As a kid dad would lift me up to see over the bridge and watch the steam trains come down the track, and standing outside the pub with a vimto (and straw) whilst the menfolk were in the pub (cant remember the name of the 'local' sadly). We played at the 'rec' which was a concrete area with a fence round it, though when the big kids come round they would chase us off and we'd be back in the street. Ah, happy days.
i remember when the slums were coming down, auntie rose and auntie hilda moved into the new tower block (Canterbury Tower) but we moved to Northfield and looked out on green fields from our flat - it was like moving to a new country for us !
But i digress. What i'd like is pictures of the area, specifically from around the 50's and early 60's although any from the area when it was still back to backs would be great. can anyone help ?

Brummie bri I was born in Dudley Road Hospital but I spent my early day's in a draw , not far from you do you remember where the doctor's were situated at the traffic lights corner of Monument Road and Summerhill Row we used to live in the houses before the doctors and then moved to Springfield St

 

[David7]

I think you're highlighting a house at the back of Garbett St. This is the 1950 map with 91 at the very bottom (purple arrow), pink arrow points to 4 back 91. The entrance to the backs is between 91 and 93, and no. 2 is labelled as 2 back 93, the other 5 back of 91. And I'd say that the house to the left of your second photo was 6 back 101...

View attachment 186380

Wow! Now that's more like how I remember the layout, we lived at 4/91 and as you say the entry to the square can just be seen about 1/2" left of the purple arrow next to 91. I do recall a factory at the back of our houses which I now see as a Printers Works but I think it may have been derelict with smashed windows. I can also see my best friend's houses at the back of 77, it's like going back in time. The house north west of your red arrow was known as "the big house", the huge garden was left wild, I would climb over the wall along the path to our house to get into that garden and walk down to my Great Grandfather's house at 97 Nelson Street, just off the map. It is like a rabbit warren with no logical design and seems to be piecemeal. Imagine building an engineering works and attaching houses to it! Could I impose on you further by requesting the section of the map further south up to Barker Street, which would show Great Grandfather's house at 97? The map detail looks like 1:1250 OS, does it have a reference number?

Many thanks indeed, seeing this detail is like reliving my childhood, I was just 1 year old when the map was published. My father was born at 3/91 and as a lad, Grandfather would send him down to that Public House on the corner of Nelson Street with a big jug and he had to ask for "a long pull" which would fill the jug with beer, I can't recall how much it cost but when he arrived home, Grandfather put a red hot poker into the beer to warm it up to his preferred temperature!

David

 

[David7]

I think you're highlighting a house at the back of Garbett St. This is the 1950 map with 91 at the very bottom (purple arrow), pink arrow points to 4 back 91. The entrance to the backs is between 91 and 93, and no. 2 is labelled as 2 back 93, the other 5 back of 91. And I'd say that the house to the left of your second photo was 6 back 101...

View attachment 186380

I assume you don't have the section of map south of the one you posted which is a pity. However, a bit more research has been interesting, having discovered maps for 1887 and 1914. It would appear that in 1887 my house was indeed back to back with 8 smaller houses to the NW in what was named Cambridge Close. In 1914 those houses and gardens were shown as being demolished along with outhouses and 4 back to back houses fronting on to Nelson Street providing a cleared site. In the 1950 map a Printers Engineering Works has been erected on the cleared site although my recollections are that it was derelict in the early 50's. It beggars belief that houses were demolished to provide a site for a factory which utilised the fabric of existing house walls in it's construction.

You would certainly not be allowed to do so nowadays, there would be uproar, bad neighbour development conflict of use etc. I suppose the tenants in the 12 houses that were demolished were just evicted to make way for a more lucrative factory development. Thankfully we have a better planning process nowadays although when it comes to building motorways and HS2 Railways, properties can be similarly CPO and demolished.

 

[MWS]

Here's the the top of the next section...

 

[David7]

Here's the the top of the next section...

View attachment 186506

Wonderful, many thanks. It is remarkable how the map triggers certain memories. By the corner of Barker Street was a lamp post we used to climb on and that Tool Works used to press metal disks from sheets of metal, lots of which got scattered on the street and pavement and we collected them often swapping them for cigarette cards and other items. My Aunt Bess had a shop somewhere between 100 and 110, maybe 102. Here is a photo taken from my house looking SW towards b2b's on Trafalgar Place which were accessed through the entry between 99 & 100.

 

[MWS]

My Aunt Bess had a shop somewhere between 100 and 110, maybe 102. Here is a photo taken from my house looking SW towards b2b's on Trafalgar Place which were accessed through the entry between 99 & 100.

If your aunt was the wife of Ralph (your grandfather's brother?), then they are listed at no. 100 on the 1939 register and ERs

 

[David7]

If your aunt was the wife of Ralph (your grandfather's brother?), then they are listed at no. 100 on the 1939 register and ERs

Thanks, you are correct, Ralph was Grandfather's brother they served together in 7th Queens Own Hussars fighting the Turks in Mesop, his other brother Fred was MIA 14/7/16 Memetz Wood, Somme. Ralph and Bess had 3 children, Ron and Billy, both now deceased and Alice who I used to be in touch with because she did lots of research on family history. Here is a wedding photo of Ralph and Bess, which I think may have been taken at the back of Great Grandfather's house 97 Nelson Street.

 

[Astoness]

certainly looks like a back house john....smashing photo

lyn

 

[Mark Tooze]

If you explore the aerial photos collection on Historic England at

Aerial Photo Explorer – Over 400,000 aerial photos in Historic England's digitised collections | Historic England

Explore England's changing landscapes through historic aerial photography, showcasing the growth and transformations of urban and rural areas.

historicengland.org.uk

you can have hours of fun zooming in on countless photos of......well just about anywhere in the UK!
Here are some Ladywood-area back to backs (not far from Five Ways) in 1935:-



This is one of the photos of Five Ways area they came from - boy did they pack 'em in in those days!!!

 

[David7]

If you explore the aerial photos collection on Historic England at

Aerial Photo Explorer – Over 400,000 aerial photos in Historic England's digitised collections | Historic England

Explore England's changing landscapes through historic aerial photography, showcasing the growth and transformations of urban and rural areas.

historicengland.org.uk

you can have hours of fun zooming in on countless photos of......well just about anywhere in the UK!
Here are some Ladywood-area back to backs (not far from Five Ways) in 1935:-
View attachment 186522
View attachment 186523
View attachment 186525
This is one of the photos of Five Ways area they came from - boy did they pack 'em in in those days!!!
View attachment 186524

Remarkable photos, I will take a look to see if I can find any of Nelson Street. The houses are certainly at a high density per acre but when they demolished them all and replaced them with high rise tower blocks they probably achieved the same density but ripped out the social heart of the community, you might get to know some neighbours on your floor or a chance meeting with someone in the lift. Some modern housing estates are approaching such densities, the norm used to be 10/acre but now 20/acre, cars won't fit into the small garages and hardly room to swing the proverbial moggie between them.

 

[David7]

Unless I have overlooked something, there don't appear to be any aerial photos of Nelson Street circa 1940-50. Here is the image I am presented with, I assume the aerial images available are indicated by the red, purple or green layer icons but there aren't any in the area I am interested in shown by the red circle. Or am I searching incorrectly?

 

[Mark Tooze]

This is true. I've been looking on the aerial photos to find images of where I was brung up in Guildford Street Newtown - success!!! Note - if you zoom in using the top right arrow it can sometimes take a few seconds for the higher resolution image to post - but it is usually worth the wait.

 

[Mark Tooze]

Unless I have overlooked something, there don't appear to be any aerial photos of Nelson Street circa 1940-50. Here is the image I am presented with, I assume the aerial images available are indicated by the red, purple or green layer icons but there aren't any in the area I am interested in shown by the red circle. Or am I searching incorrectly?

You should see something like this - this is the Ladywood area:-


Purple squares are old images, red dots are modern ones. It usually starts with a map of GB - then you can selectively use the +/- buttons top left to get to the are you want - or type Ladywood in the search box. When you click on a square/dot it opens up a 2nd session like this:-


This is Walsall Goods Yard by the way.

 

[Mark Tooze]

Unless I have overlooked something, there don't appear to be any aerial photos of Nelson Street circa 1940-50. Here is the image I am presented with, I assume the aerial images available are indicated by the red, purple or green layer icons but there aren't any in the area I am interested in shown by the red circle. Or am I searching incorrectly?

Actually you have the squares / dots - you have just zoomed in a bit too far! Check all photos from surrounding areas (the one I posted above were from Five Ways looking westwards). As well as the highlighted photos if you click an orange area (if it has one - not all do) you will get RAF or USAAF aerial photos.

 

[David7]

I found Nelson Street 1937 listed as Summerhill, before I was born but the factory is shown at the back of our house ... really spooky to see it all from the air!