What Happened To The Lake House In Boldmere

[pjmburns]

Right Pen - I had some problems as when I enlarged the area it changed the colour of the lines so the original blue line was a different colour (a pain to compare). I then asked the map to give me an extra contour line and I left the area more or less as it was. This is what I got

 

[Lady Penelope]

Thanks Janice. I've joined a research group at Sutton Library and looked at a copy of the original railway company proposals, unfortunately they didn't go far enough up he Chester Road to be of help to me. The only positive thing that came out of them was that they reminded me of 'our' floods. The railway company lowered the road under the bridge at Chester Road station but were warned that this would cause a problem in heavy rain and it still does. A 'lake' forms, sometimes 3 or 4 feet deep and recently was the 'death' of at least two cars, maybe three, who were foolish enough to attempt to go through it.

What would be wonderful is if a copy of the turnpike proposals could be found. Unfortunately these are 'lost'. Doesn't mean that they aren't out there somewhere but these may detail the land for the proposed route.

Other schools of thought (hence the word argument) say that it was 'seasonal' which makes sense judging by the above or that it was just a 'muddy puddle'. I've grown very fond of the lake so will keep on looking.

Your maps and Peter's are really helpful, thanks again.

 

[pjmburns]

I like the idea of it being "seasonal ". That makes sense. As for messing with roads and causing problems - don't start me off! We have a bit near us where they put the stream in a culvert under the road but... you've guessed it ... when there is a lot of rain the culvert can't cope so the road is awash. Very seasonal.

 

[Pedrocut]

A couple of observations...on the old map showing the Lake, more on the southern of Chester Road than the northern, there seems to be a tail? Depending on the contours it could be an outlet, or maybe a spring feeding the Lake. (Or just something that has been added?)

Also on the Chester Road, left side of map, there is a mile Post. Can’t locate this on more recent maps.

 

[Pedrocut]

From the British Geological Survey iGeology App. The superficial and Bedrock Geology of near Lake House.

You never know, it might be helpful to someone what knows what them talking about. Any road up it is interesting to see the small whitish area. This is slightly different composition to the yellowish surrounding area.

 

[pjmburns]

Did it tell you what the material was? Just wondering if it is porous? Before you ask - I don’t know much - just what I remember from A-level geography - and we won't mention how many years ago that was!!

 

[Pedrocut]

Did it tell you what the material was? Just wondering if it is porous? Before you ask - I don’t know much - just what I remember from A-level geography - and we won't mention how many years ago that was!!

From the survey it looks like the underlying bedrock is much the same for a very wide area including Sutton Park, being slightly different forms of sandstone. The map shows the bedrock layer. When you move the circle it gives the bedrock and superficial description. In the case abovethe surface layer, records clay, silt, sand and gravel.

However I have looked again and noticed that if you move the circle very slightly it changes, even in the small area below the Chester Road....more investigation needed!

(Amendments 1410 more to follow)

 

[Pedrocut]

This map shows a combination of bedrock and superficial. There is an area reaching just above the Chester Road and continues below the road, not touching Court Lane and continuing as a slim strip into Erdington. MARKED AS A DIRTY YELLOW.

If you move the circle around this area the description is Head-Clay, Silt, Sand and gravel. Superficial deposits formed up to 3 million years ago in the Quaternary Period.

Outside and around the area the description becomes Glaciofluvial Deposits, Devensian-Sand and Gravel.

Now this could just be coincidence, but how strange that the area just stretches above the Chester Road!

 

[Lady Penelope]

Before I go any further I have to admit to having a problem and that is I always think water flows 'down the page' and find it hard to think otherwise. As you can tell my geography leaves a lot to be desired.

Lots of information Janice and Peter, thank you again.

I had theorised that the 'tail' ran from the lake, under Sycamore Road (hence the subsidence) and down to the bottom of Court Lane, still underground, and appeared at the Marsh Lane Recreation Ground where it flowed into Witton Lakes. But as I say this is just a theory. I thought this mainly because the Hawthorn Brook which appears behind the College flows down to the lakes.

 

[Pedrocut]

If you take the map posted by Janice in post 91, and for reference take the small blue circular contour just to the left of Sycamore Road. To the north of this is the red contour of 145m and slopes down to the 125m circle. To the west we have green sloping from about 133m. To the east we have 139m sloping down to 125m.

So on 3 sides of the small circle we have a slope. The main addition in the description of the “dirty yellow” area in the map above is the addition of clay.

Pure conjecture an open to much flack ...I forward a theory which can be shot down... the surrounding area has sand and gravel and would probably drain well and down to the area with a bit of clay. The drainage would be worse here in the cold, damp weather. In summer the clay would begin to dry out and the lake would disappear.

Back to the trenches!

 

[pjmburns]

I did have similar thoughts about the sand and gravel draining down to clay. We have a similar situation nearby with Moseley Bog which is much drier in the summer - it doesn't go completely as it is now shaded with trees.

 

[Lady Penelope]

Oooo - Love it! Now all I've got to do is understand it. I think I shall have to print everything and sit and look at all this information. I like your thoughts Peter. The comparison with Moseley Bog is really good. The Research Group is going on a visit there but I think it's on a day I can't go.

 

[pjmburns]

I only said about Moseley Bog because the area is sand and gravel (partly dug out for building work in some places) and clay, like the area of Boldmere. What a coincidence that your group are hoping to visit.

 

[Pedrocut]

I have enlarged the Geological Survey Map, and marked the area (dirty yellow) a little better to see where the superficial (top layer) deposits are described as Head- Clay, silt, sand and gravel, deposits formed up to 3 million years ago. I have marked some of the roads to get the bearings.

Searching for “Head” in geological terms comes up with... Head essentially comprises sand and gravel, locally with lenses of silt, clay or peat and organic material.

There is another area over towards Wylde Green that also comprises of Head and follows Plants Brook. However most of the deposits of the surrounding area, pink on the map, are described as Glaciofluval deposits (in this case sand and gravel) from the Devensian.

Again looking in geological terms Glaciofluval comes up with... relating to or coming from streams deriving much, or all of their water, from the melting of a glacier....Devensian is name used by British geologists for the last ice age.

So on the face of it, a chap in Lakeside Road can dig in his garden and turn up deposits laid down 3 million years ago. And the chap in Court Lane can only turn over deposits from the last ice age being about 12,000 years.

This is all very interesting but is it relevant? Well, it seems extraordinary that right at the top end of this area of “Head” is the modern Lakeside Road at the site of what was Lake House. There is the ancient map that shows Baldmoor Lake on both sides of the Chester Road, as does the area of “Head” on the Geological Map.

From the advert of 1826 there is an inclosure for the Coldfield of “a portion of valuable land called Baldmore Lake” and later from adverts of 1838 there is the Sale of Freehold building land... “the whole of the two Baldmoor Lake Pieces, immediately joining (Oscott Estate)...the whole of the frontage to Court Lane, embracing a depth of 80 yards, will be laid out in lots for building...in that rapidly increasing neighbourhood....(a further advert says) the land fronting Court Lane will be offered in 15 lots having a frontage to Court Lane of 10 yards and each 30 yards in depth. The two corner lots, which are larger, are either of them well adapted for the site of a good Inn with roomy stabling, or a general Shopkeeper’s establishment, which are much wanted there.”

It looks like the Baldmoor Pieces were on the eastern side of Court Lane, as by the 1880s the western side still belongs to the College, and Lake House now exists. (See Thumbnail). So there seems to be enough references to the “Lake” to suggest that there was once a Lake?

 

[Morturn]

Interesting that the area to the South West of Beech and Sycamore Road was a sandpit in the 60s. it extended almost as far as Goosemore Land and Chester Road.


I do remember that the sandpit has a seasonal lake at the bottom

 

[Pedrocut]

This is from November 1966 but not within the area of “Head” but flooding seems to have been a problem in Boldmere.

 

[Lady Penelope]

Well Peter, I'm just amazed! Such a lot to take in and I have to thank you again for all the work you and Janice have put in. Another print out and a careful study I think.

Morturn, I hadn't tied in the gravel pit with this search so thank you for that too. My cousin lived on the Chester Road itself in the early 1950's, not far from the area in question. She says she remembers a quarry at the bottom of their garden but I haven't found one on the maps at all only the one off Goosemoor Lane. She has another friend who is slightly older and also remembers this. A young boy was killed playing there but I can't say I have any knowledge of the accident.

 

[Morturn]

Hi Pen, yes I remember that incident. I was told that a group of lads dug a tunnel or into the side of the pit when several tons of sand buried him. Around 1968 ish. I was told off several times for going over there as a lad.

 

[Bob Davis]

It is interesting that the station on the map above is marked Boldmere and the flooding around the Boulevard and Station Road is also referred to as Boldmere. I always thought that Boldmere was confined to the area either side of Boldmere Road and just a short distance off all the side roads and that it became Wylde Green to the left from Jockey Road to Birmingham Road, Wylde Green from Church Road to Chester Road and Gravelly Lane and New Oscott from Lakehouse Road to College Road. Mind you that was in the 40s and 50s and the world of my snobbish mother and her conservative lady friends who lived in the big houses on Chester Road.

Bob

 

[Pedrocut]

It is interesting that the station on the map above is marked Boldmere and the flooding around the Boulevard and Station Road is also referred to as Boldmere. I always thought that Boldmere was confined to the area either side of Boldmere Road and just a short distance off all the side roads and that it became Wylde Green to the left from Jockey Road to Birmingham Road, Wylde Green from Church Road to Chester Road and Gravelly Lane and New Oscott from Lakehouse Road to College Road. Mind you that was in the 40s and 50s and the world of my snobbish mother and her conservative lady friends who lived in the big houses on Chester Road.

Bob

Nice to know it wasn’t the big house in Winson Green!

 

[Vivienne14]

Adding to the background info about the House. The Lake House mentioned in the press as being in 'New Oscott' in 1920 and another mention in 1961. Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

And the former home of a Sutton Mayor . Viv.

 

[pjmburns]

Pen - this map is from 1965. As it is rather small I have marked Sycamore Road in red, Beech Road in red and ringed in green the sandpit I assume Morturn is referring to. It is large enough to reach Goosemoor Lane so is probably the one you found.

 

[pjmburns]

It looks as if work started on the pit at the end of the 1930s as there is no sign of working on the 1937 map but a gravel pit is marked on the 1938 one. The online site I used then jumps to the 1950s. When work looks more extensive. Trying further back now to see if there are others in the area of the Lake House.

 

[Lady Penelope]

Viv, I think the second cutting must be a mis-print as Lake House had definitely gone long before 1961. I think it must refer to Lakehouse Road, built on the site of the Lake House.

 

[Lady Penelope]

Morturn, the incident I'm referring to must have been in the 1950's because my cousin moved from that house before that date. I wasn't very old either but unfortunately the memory is quite fuzzy. I do remember being told not to go down the bottom of the garden so whatever it may have been was accessible from their house.

 

[pjmburns]

Pen I agree about the second article in # 11 - I thought it must be Lakehouse Road.

 

[Radiorails]

It is interesting that the station on the map above is marked Boldmere and the flooding around the Boulevard and Station Road is also referred to as Boldmere. I always thought that Boldmere was confined to the area either side of Boldmere Road and just a short distance off all the side roads and that it became Wylde Green to the left from Jockey Road to Birmingham Road, Wylde Green from Church Road to Chester Road and Gravelly Lane and New Oscott from Lakehouse Road to College Road. Mind you that was in the 40s and 50s and the world of my snobbish mother and her conservative lady friends who lived in the big houses on Chester Road.

Bob

I can understand confusion regarding the true location of places within the city. The greater part of new housing, prior to and after WW2, was generally situated in the outer suburbs; north, south, east and west. Unless someone had to travel some distance to their workplace or visited relatives or friends in those 'distant' places they probably knew little about them.
For instance, I had an uncle, aunt and cousins who, I was told, lived in Sutton Coldfield. I often wondered about them but due to a family grievance some years ago they did not keep in touch with any of my fathers family. Although they never moved, but from time to time when they were mentioned they were given as being sometimes in Boldmere, Wylde Green or Sutton Coldfield.
My curiosity was eventually assuaged when at a family funeral I met the mysterious eldest brother of my father. I did visit their home once in 1953, a Midland Red bus took me there as it was outside the city boundary, but I have no recollection of the road name now. The only thing I do remember is that should the television mast fall in their direction I calculated to top would most likely be in the back garden.

 

[Lady Penelope]

That could be in one of several places Radiorails, Mere Green, Four Oaks, Little Aston, Little Sutton, Hill, and so the list goes on. I live in Sutton Coldfield and don't know where the districts of Boldmere, Wylde Green etc begin and end. I live on the Erdington side of Chester Road and don't have a sub-district, we're just Sutton Coldfield.

 

[Bob Davis]

That could be in one of several places Radiorails, Mere Green, Four Oaks, Little Aston, Little Sutton, Hill, and so the list goes on. I live in Sutton Coldfield and don't know where the districts of Boldmere, Wylde Green etc begin and end. I live on the Erdington side of Chester Road and don't have a sub-district, we're just Sutton Coldfield.

Lady P
In the forties and fifties if you lived in the suburbs with parents who had dreams of bettering themselves, the main dream was to move out of Birmingham and to Sutton Coldfield (Streetley, Four Oaks, Wylde Green, Monmouth Drive (Off Jockey Road) and anywhere close to Sutton Park (except by the main gates0. Solihull, Parts of Shirley or the real prizes Knowle, Dorridge, all those delightful Villages surrounding South Birmingham or if you wanted to stay the posh parts of the City itself, Edgbaston, parts of Moseley, Harborne and along the roads leading away from Five Ways to Harborne and Quinton. My mother never really forgave my father for crossing Court Lane to move into a new house at 19/6p per week, only because it took her from Sutton Coldfield into Birmingham.
Radiorails
You have uncovered another strange phenomena in the City, how little we knew about the other side from where we lived. If we had relatives there, we knew the bus/tram route, Blue or Red, but our horizons were narrowed by the streets we travelled and we knew little else unless some one from that side took us for a walk and we strayed into strange territory and the answer to where have you been was always 'dunno', because we did not. I was a bus anorak and knew that certain buses only ran on certain routes, so my pocket money did take me on tours in the school holidays, but like visiting the rellies, the knowledge of the area was limited to the bus route and even then the bus itself was of more interest. The GOE AECs on the Moseley Routes, the various JOJ Leylands on routes that were served by Hockley. Sorry if I have gone off thread, but these two posts brought back a lot of memories, some not to pleasant.

Bob