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The Spitfire

  • Thread starter Thread starter O.C.
  • Start date Start date
Hi Fred,

Good guess! The Mk 14 Spitfire (which I think is the Mark in your photo) weighed about 7500lbs empty, whilst the Panavia Tornado was around 33000lbs. But the Tornado could lift fuel and stores to about the same level as its empty weight, whereas the Spitfire could lift nowhere near that.

Big Gee
 
I agree with you about memorials, but, one placed in a position which can be eyed by many provokes an enquiring mind which hopefully will lead them to the path of knowledge...Cat
 
My Aunt Ida worked as an amourer on the spit, including the test firing with the plane on the tressles. She lived close to the factory and spent a large part of the war either in the factory or sleeping in the family air raid shelter. It never occured to me as a young boy why there where so many new houses in my grandads road, until I was told that the previous ones had all got hit by bombs meant for the factory.
Re the spitfire island, I have to say that every time I visit that area, I get worked up about it. Great idea to commemorate the spit, but the support work for the planes dominates and the lights that were meant to bring it alive at night don't appear to have ever been switched on. I would have preffered like others to have had a real spit up on a pole as a sort of gate guardian to the vale.
I remember the day they closed down the old base, with loads of vampires, venoms and the V bombers on display along with the spit, hurricane and lancaster to name a few.
 
Chris,

What a great story that is about your aunt Ida, thanks for sharing it with us. People, like your aunt, were real heroes as they must have known all too well that while working at CB they were prime targets for the Luftwaffe.

And I share your sentiments about the spitfire island too, it's a poor show, not in proportion to the debt we owe and to the people that worked there.

Graham.
 
I agree with your Graham about the unsung heroes who worked at the factories that were turning our items for WW2 effort. The CB plant was a target for certain and several areas close by it took severe bomb damage.
Aunt Ida would have been one of those unsung heroes for certain.

The Spitfire Island needs to be renovated and if it were it would surely show how important that place was to Britain in those long gone days.
I like this story of the Canadian Ace pilot and the Spitfire.
https://ww2chat.com/forums/war-air/3538-spitfire-ace-s-role-shared-tv-series.html
 
Great story Jenny of that Malta based pilot, I enjoyed reading that.

When I first lived in Belgium I knew an English RAF war pilot. But he never talked to me about what he did in the war and it was only by accident that I found out he was a spitfire pilot that had brought down many German planes.

Another English friend of mine here in Belgium was the man in real life that the film 'Bridge on the river Kwai" was based on. He too was based at Malta and built up his swimming power in the sea around Malta. He was chosen by the army for the job in the River Kwai because of his swimming powers. He also never talked to me about his deeds in the war.
Graham.
 
cromwell said:
First Map was issued to the German Bomber crews the target was the black outline (I have put yellow as well ) next to it was were the Dunlop Plant was but it was not on their earlier map
Second Map dated 1949 shows were the Spitfires were made
The building in between the Dunlop and the Spitfire plant has been Fishers, Rover, Jaguar and a number of other names but at the time it was a Munitions Factory and today you can still see traces of camouflage on the building
Click to expand...
Please Note on the 2nd map close to the top you will see "Orphans Home" that was Sir Josiah Masons Orphanage " I was there 1938-1946 and we often saw the the Spitfires fly over , the roar of the engines never to be forgotten , no wonder us children spent many nights during the air raids down the cellar shelter under the Orphanage , the ACK ACK Guns firing at the Luftwaffer ,shrapnel finds in the morning after the raids , not many of us left now , uncertain times , the Spitfire saved us from German Invasion without a doubt else we would all be speaking German now.
 
Rupert said:
Don't forget Faith, Hope and Charity.
Click to expand...

These aircraft were the three Gloster Gladiator biplanes that helped defend Malta against the Luftwaffe during the siege. I think I recall that one of them actually survived and is preserved in a museum somewhere - maybe in Malta itself.

Big Gee
 
There are some good videos on you tube about the Spitfire. I liked the first one even though it's short. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7isyGZNz1c"]YouTube - Malta Spitfires[/ame]
 
Having only been on the site for a week mainly asking for help with my Family History it was only tonight I came accross this thread.
I am one of those kids who used to run down to the local toy shop and buy the airfix spitfire in a bag every pocket money day,never painted them just glued them togther and dreamed I was that pilot taking on the might of the german airforce.
I do not know who to blame realy but those biulding those models all those years,leading up the 1/24th scale airfix one they brought out in think 1970,had to get it after seeing it on blue peter;)
It was in 1978 when I first managed to get my hands on a real one,it was a MK 17 seafire at the naval base at Yeovilton, the following yrs I have assisted in some of the rebiulds which are flying now and take it from me,Birmingham engineering is simply the best,how do we know that?
About 90% of the flying spitfires of today were originaly built at Castle Bromwich which is testimonial, of the other 10% they were built at the satelite factorys in the south of England.
3 out of the 5 available spitfires of the RAF BoB flight at Conningsby were built in Birmingham with another one a MK 16 which they are making airworthy was also built at CBAF.
Dont forget that the Spitfire in the Birmingham museum was also built at the CBAF factory, it stood at the gate at castle Bromwich for many yrs until the airfield closed down.
All in all, just short of half of all spitfire/seafire production which without checking the actual figures amounted to approx 11000 was built under the auspices of the CBAF factory, either at the factory itself or a satilite assembly unit such as Cosford.
I have been researching the spitfire for over 20 yrs now,have been very lucky in meeting people who worked there and who flew them including Alex Henshaw,there is also a Company in Stoke on Trent called Supermarine Aero Engineering ltd who makes parts for todays spitfires and I worked there until a few yrs ago.
I am still connected with the spitfire in more ways than just watching them, some time ago I managed to obtain the remains of a spitfire which I am very slowly rebuilding, so if anybody can help with the occasional rivet or wing I have a very good home waiting:).
On the subject of memorials, some would say that the ones on the island are enough, I do not aggree whilst we have the original factory still standing and bear in mind Jaguar have placed a plaque on the wall near the original entrance to that effect, and we remember all those who sacrificed thier lives in the factory, the hard effort and the spitfire is still flying they will never be forgotten.
 
Thanks for a great read coalman.
Good luck with your rebuild.
I know some people disagree with me on here. I think the Sentinel Spitfire Sculpture is wonderful, the sense of movement is unreal. I have the pleasure of going around that Island most days:) I will have an accident one day, gorping at it:rolleyes:
https://www.cantoo.net/sentinel/default.htm
 
The Spitfire

Most of the fighter aircraft in the 'Battle of Britain' were 'Hurricanes'.
Of course the Spitfire went on to make by 1946, I think Mark 24,25 and possibly 26.
But from May 1940 until September the 15th, the Hawker Hurricane shouldered the brunt of the the battle.
Anyone who has heard the sound of a Merlin engine in a Spitfire will have perhaps an indelible audio print in their mind.
The Merlin has, of any prop aircraft, one of the most beautiful sounds of a prop engine.
You don't have to to be 60+ to appreciate it.
But it was the Hawker Hurricane [in the Spring and Summer of 1940], designed by Sidney Camm that got Britain through that year.

ladywood
 
Last edited:
ladywood said:
The Spitfire

Most of the fighter aircraft in the 'Battle of Britain' were 'Hurricanes'.
Of course the Spitfire went on to make by 1946, I think Mark 24,25 and possibly 26.
But from May 1940 until September the 15th, the Hawker Hurricane shouldered the brunt of the the battle.
Anyone who has heard the sound of a Merlin engine in a Spitfire will have perhaps an indelible audio print in their mind.
The Merlin has, of any prop aircraft, one of the most beautiful sounds of a prop engine.
You don't have to to be 60+ to appreciate it.
But it was the Hawker Hurricane [in the Spring and Summer of 1940], designed by Sidney Camm that got Britain through that year.

ladywood
Click to expand...

Shame a great Fighter like the Hurricane was over shadowed by the Spitfire.
It has got it's Birmingham link.Their were 300 hundred built at Austin Motor Company Longbridge:)
 
Frothblower said:
Shame a great Fighter like the Hurricane was over shadowed by the Spitfire.
It has got it's Birmingham link.Their were 300 hundred built at Austin Motor Company Longbridge:)
Click to expand...

Frothy,

That's very true and I think that most of us know now that the Hurricane did more than its fair share of the work defending our shores. But the Spitfire has become a British icon world wide and we should be proud that so many of these beautiful machines were produced in our city. I know I am and I think that its lines are of timeless design and also powered by such an advanced piece of engineering.

Graham.
 
Cadeau said:
Frothy,

That's very true and I think that most of us know now that the Hurricane did more than its fair share of the work defending our shores. But the Spitfire has become a British icon world wide and we should be proud that so many of these beautiful machines were produced in our city. I know I am and I think that its lines are of timeless design and also powered by such an advanced piece of engineering.

Graham.
Click to expand...

I agree with every word Graham:)
 
Even during the war there was a certain amount of what is now called "spitfire snobbery"
In August of 1940, a 32 sqdn Hurricane shot down a German He 111 bomber and its pilot was captured,During his interrigation he said he had been shot down by a spitfire, when he was informed he was wrong and it was in fact a hurricane, he stiffly repied that he was a well respected pilot of the german air force and that only a spitfire could have shot him down.
Even then the spitfire was becoming an icon, but I feel that the media of the day plus many figures of the British Goverment of the day failed to give the hurricane the reconigtion it deserved.Yes the Spitfire was sleek in its design and was slightly faster but it was not as good as a gun platform as the hurricane.
The hurricane had a long pedrigree, it could sustain far more punishment than the spitfire,I had the luck of meeting and listening to 2 pilots give a talk once of the diference between the 2 aircraft, Stanford Tuck and Douglas Bader, both had flown both aircraft in combat and both said that the hurricane was the one which always got you home,no matter how badly shot up it was.
 
The Sea Fury

This is a drawing I did of a Sea Fury quite a while ago.
Was the Sea Fury a continuation of the Spitfire design?

ladywoodhttps://forum.birminghamhistory.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=28861&stc=1&d=1238148974
 
The performance of the Me 109 and Spitfire was pretty close at the start of the war and from what I have read, the slower Hurricane was a more stable gun platform. Maybe there was room for more ammunition in the wings of the latter. I read somewhere that the curved shape of the Spitfire leading edge was more difficult to manufacture than a straight one. The German pilots were at a disadvantage due to small duration time over the target and any incident that required a bail out or crash landing meant the loss of one; even if it was only due to engine failure. Captivity for survivors was the result.
Perhaps the Spit was more agile but the 109 had leading edge slats I believe which must have done something.
Superiority of a mark was of short duration in those times with design becoming out of date very quickly. A completely different machine was created when the Merlin engine was fitted to the revolutionary airframe design of the P51 Mustang I think. With it’s large fuel tank and lamina flow wings it could escort bombers pretty much to the target and back in the daytime. With excellent speed and all round fighting capabilities and it’s bubble canopy, it was an elegant design born of transatlantic co-operation. It ruled the skies for a while. And yet it was the Hurricane and, so right looking Spitfire, that maybe gave it the opportunity to do so.
 
Ladywood

Congratulations on an excellent drawing,Though my association was mainly with Phantoms,Buccaneers and wessex helicopters at the start then mainly concentrating on the Spitfire, on apron duties at airshows etc over the yrs I have also worked with Mustangs and Sea furies as there was 2 flying at the naval station I was at plus one private owned one at Wroughton by swindon, the owner/pilot name was John Bradshaw who was also a concorde pilot.You have captured the look and the aggresivness of the fury so well.
The sea furies roots lie with the Hurricane not the spitfire, you are thinking about the seafire which was a navalised version of the spitfire.
In 1940 Sidney Camm designed a hurricane replacement, which was named the Tornado,this was his first design using the same monoqoque construction methods as the messerschmitt and spifire,fitted with a radial engine it failed to reach the speeds that was reqiured, using the same methods he then designed the Typhoon which still had its teething problems but it did go into production,which lead to the Tempest.
Using the same parts of the fuslage,upping the hieght of the pilots cockpit and using the Tempests wings and replacing the Napier engine to a Bristol radial engine He came up with the Hawker Fury, this was Sidney camms final piston Engined fighter aircraft he designed as his next design was the famous Hawker Hunter.
The mustang was the aircraft even before it flew for 1st time made aviation history!
Will leave that one for another day:D
 
I saw a Hawker Sea Fury in flight when we lived in the USA. It was at the Cleveland Air Races and did a few demo passes. Awesome! I think it's the exact same aircraft in the watch ads (can't remember the make of watch - maybe Tag-Heuer?) and was rebuilt and extensively modified for the Unlimited Air Races at Reno, Nevada.

By the way, the Mustang was conceived to a British specification, and North American Aviation designed and constructed the prototype in 102 days from receipt of order! It wasn't much good with its original Alison engine (couldn't climb, low ceiling) but when the British realised that a Merlin would fit the airframe, the rest is history, as they say!

Big Gee
 
Rupert,

As far as I can recall, the RAF was hoping to purchase a large number of P40 Warhawks from Curtiss-Wright to boost fighter numbers during the Battle of Britain and the Blitz. For reasons I think to do with licensing costs the deal fell through, and North American stepped in and said they could build a fighter that would be much better than the P40. I think the original specification was simply for an interceptor, same as the Spitfire originally, but the enormous potential of the Mustang was quickly realised, along with the development of long-range drop-tanks (which were moulded from varnished paper, would you believe!)

The last known combat between piston-engine aircraft was between Mustangs in 1969 during some short-lived and largely-forgotten Central American conflict.

Big Gee
 
Greetings fellow Brummies everywhere.

My father worked as a machine tool fitter for the Rover for many years both pre-and post-war.

Before joining up in '42 he was sent to a factory situated in the cliffs at Kinver edge, in charge of a group of female operatives [ whom he remembers with great fondness] making parts for the Spitfire.

After the war he worked at the Castle Bromwich factory when production of the Merlin engines had long ceased. Apparently a large numbers of Merlins were dumped and buried in the oil sumps on the site. Having not heard of any engines being found during the redevelopment of the site I presume they are still there. Does anyone have any further info on these two points
 
Hi

Cannot tell you anything about the Kinver production site but can tell you that if any Merlin engine production ever took place at Castle Bromwich it went un documented.The CBAF plant was set up solely for the production of aircraft,namely the Spitfire then later on the Lancaster,the machine shops which were at first under the managment of Nuffield, later became under Lucas and could not cope with the demand hence satalite sites such as Kinver,Solihull and others were set up.
As far as records show,Merlins were produced only at Rolls Royce factories at Derby, Manchester and Kilbride,but if you contact the Rolls Royce heritage group I am sure they will be able to help, interviews I conducted with former employees of Vickers who worked there said that the engines arrived in cases, in what was called a bare state and on site RR engineers added such items as hydraulic pumps,exhaust stubs,starters and generators before being installed on the airframe.
There has always been rumours of parts of aircraft cleared from out of the Factory when production ceased and buried within the confines of the old Factory and airfield, during the redevelopment of the old Airfield some parts were found including some old Propellers that were donated to local establisments, regarding engines,yes there is proof that some surplus old engines that was no longer reqiured by the RAF were disposed of in the late 1940's and the site is known to the Authorities and is well protected legally.
I do hope the above is useful.
 
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