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The Moat - Moat Row & Moat Lane

Holme Park & Little Park were deer parks belonging to the Lords of Birmingham Manor. Holme meaning low lying land on a flood plain, Holme Park was south of the Manor House and Little Park was to the north east of it.
 
A well known destination
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At few more views of Moat Lane

The gates to the old cattle market in 1901 ( Historic England Archive.)

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A workshop on Moat Lane prior to demolition in 1903. This made way for modern fruit and veg warehouses facing the old covered market (Shoothill site)

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And a view looking along Moat Lane, from St Martin's church (Shoothill site)

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Viv.
 
sospiri said:
Has the name Holme Park survived anywhere on current maps, Viv? It's a new one on me.

Maurice
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A couple of years ago April 2015 there was a petition to create a new park in the city centre very near to this area. Anyone know what happened to this proposal? If it were to happen it would be "nice" call it by this old name.
 
devonjim,

Isn't the new park in Curzon Street outside the new Science Museum & Thinktank or whatever they call it?
 
With the price of land in any city centre, I can't see such a petition being successful. Most parks were areas of privately owned land donated by their owners at a time when land didn't have such an enormous value. A laudable petition, but doomed to failure I think.

Maurice
 
A couple of early drawings of Moat Lane, the one bears the caption "Old view of the moat from Moat Lane" but I don't see the moat
 

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I like those drawings, but what has the guy in the first picture got in his right hand, Phil?

Maurice
 
oldbrit said:
Thanks very interesting, So I wonder, at one time a castle for the moat?
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Oldbrit

I think there was never more than a Manor House though I don't doubt it might have been fortified at times during it's life. At least I've never read of it being a castle and back them moated houses were commonplace.
 
Phil said:
A couple of early drawings of Moat Lane, the one bears the caption "Old view of the moat from Moat Lane" but I don't see the moat
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Must go under the road Phil.

Both moats are supposed to have disappeared in the early 1800s to allow for building development. The drawing in post #25 is dated c1815 and is supposed to be just before the land was used to build Smithfield. Viv.
 
Phyllis Nicklin took this photo in 1968 indicating the location of the Manor House. In 1968 the plaque was near the entrance to the fish market. Expect it's no longer there given all the developments since that time. Viv.
 

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I saw this pic (as above post 48) in the other thread. I attached an interest but little importance to it. The archaeological work was carried out in 1973 - 1975. In the comprehensive work "Birmingham Hidden History", by Michael Hodder, its states that the wall are that of the former Manor House. I don't know where the article is from that is quoted in Post 48 and why it was decided to call this the moat revetment wall. All quite fascinating.
https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/local-news/birminghams-official-archaeologist-dr-mike-7657944
 
The condition of the bricks is remarkably good for a building the age of the manor house
 
thanks for the link to the interview with mike hodder alan...slightly off topic here (slap of wrist) but hes a great guy and together we both tried to save the fox and grapes pub park st but of course HS2 won the day but as i have already said it is hoped that before work starts there will be one more excavation of that area...i will be contacting HS2 for any news on that and will also speak to mike to see if there is an in depth report available on the moat excavation of 1974

lyn
 
mikejee said:
The condition of the bricks is remarkably good for a building the age of the manor house
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Mike

I have to agree with you, the brickwork in the photo is very similar to that of the type of spread footings used in the 19th century before concrete foundations were used. In fact looking at this photo of Moat Lane showing Smithfield Market, the brickwork looks very similar to that on the photo.

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hi folks below is the reply i received from mike hodder re report available for the moat excavation..this is another one to keep any eye on as the moat will be excavated once more and guess who will be up there blacking her nose:D







Hi Lyn

Good to hear from you.

I thought I had a pdf of the Moat report but unfortunately I can’t find one.The report is in the Transactions of the Birmingham and Warwickshire Archaeological Society Volume 89- there is a copy of this in the Library of Birmingham, in the Birmingham Collection (Heritage Research area, Level 4). Despite the title of the report, which refers to the destruction of the Moat during the construction of the Wholesale Markets in the 1970s, the moat itself and structures enclosed by it, including the stone wall exposed in the 1970s and pictured in the report, still survive under part of the Wholesale Markets and further archaeological excavation will be required before the new “Smithfield” development takes place. There is more information on the site in the City Council’s Historic Environment Record- the contact for this is ross.brazier@birmingham.gov.uk

Mike
 
https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/Documents/college-artslaw/caha/wmrrfa/6/MikeHodder.doc

Note: clicking on this link will download the files (four pages in all).
Download to your desktop or documents whichever you prefer. You can then save or print the info.
For folks interested in Birmingham's early history rather than the 20th. century it makes interesting reading often referring to places mentioned in some of the threads here.
 
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Thanks for the update Lyn.

Thanks Alan too. The list of questions about the gaps in knowledge are interesting. So much still to explore. Personally I sense there was more re-building of much earlier structures (pre-1600s) than we can see or know of, partly because of the destruction of very early structures during the mass redevelopment of the post- war 1950s/60s. Viv.
 
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That's good Lyn !

This is an interesting sequence of photos of Moat Lane. The two colour images are Phyllis Nicklin's (1954 then in the 1960s). She obviously realised the area was on the cusp of major change. Some demolition on the right had already taken place by 1954. And by the 1960s the whole of the right side had been replaced. The only constant features being St Martin's church and Smithfield - but not for long. The last image is from 1974, demolition of the market would soon change this area forever. Viv.

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moat lane photos has always held a fascination for me viv especially those old black and whites...cant quite put my finger on why but it could be the sight of st martins looming in the distance then of course that view was completely ruined when the rotunda went up

lyn
 
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