Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
A little back alley off Allison Street, Deritend...HACK STREET...used to have a pub I've never heard of...changed a bit now....
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Passages, Alleyways Gulletts and Snickets of Old Brum
- Thread starter Dennis Williams
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paul stacey
master brummie
Great photo's Dennis, how much the site has changed, that old railway viaduct, did it run into Snow hill or New Street??.Paul
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Snow Hill I think Paul....but Phil, mikejee or a thousand others will know....it ran from Bordesley Station.....must be GWR surely?
Curzon Street was the destination though efforts by the GWR to connect were thwarted by the London & North Western Railway so the Duddeston Viaduct remains testament to the pig headed business interests of the Railway Mania of the 1840's.
This from the National Archive showing the area of disputed land which Brunel needed cross to complete the connection in accordance with the Act of Parliament. Thankfully Plan B allowed us to board trains today at Snow Hill and Moor Street
Must have been bad news for the publican of the Great Western in Hack Street
paul stacey
master brummie
Thanks Dennis and Speedwing, I did wonder about Curzon street, Paul.
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
DOH!! Of course Speedwing! Thanks for the input, spot on as per.....
brummie nick
master brummie
My Brother in Law worked in Hack St, think the place was called 'Paper Stock' it would have been in the 1940's
Nick
Nick
Lady Penelope
master brummie
I remember going to see my Auntie Nell who worked in the furniture department of Greys which was on Steelhouse Lane. (I was going to put 'see my aunt' but I have dim recollections of this phrase having another meaning!)
If she was at lunch we would go out of the back door (I seem to remember having to go upstairs in the shop - there was a mezzanine floor), and then into a passage at the back which took you to a canteen. I always thought this belonged to Greys but I wonder if it was a British Restaurant? Any ideas anyone, it was a long time ago?
If she was at lunch we would go out of the back door (I seem to remember having to go upstairs in the shop - there was a mezzanine floor), and then into a passage at the back which took you to a canteen. I always thought this belonged to Greys but I wonder if it was a British Restaurant? Any ideas anyone, it was a long time ago?
Rupert
This is Dr Johnson Passage, I believe the Meeting House is still there today but in a much altered condition. In this photo which I suppose could have been taken from Lewis's if you look along the passage you can see Greys department store opposite.
Phil
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Hi Lady P
I would think that this is the Greys Department that you describe, as there was a British Restaurant (Civic Restaurant) to the rear on Upper Priory I have no doubt that there was a rear way into from the shop.
Attachments
Lady Penelope
master brummie
Thanks Phil, I expect it was as you say. I hadn't seen the second picture before - really good!
I got onto this thread as I was looking for Brasshouse Passage Court. It was behind the Brasshouse and Norman Bartlam says it is recorded that in 1864 there were 12 three-storey houses with stables and outbuildings but these were in a dilapidated state and 'fit only for a very low class of tenant'. Well that puts me firmly in my place as my gr gr grandparents were living there in 1861! I've lost them by the 1871 census and by 1881 gr gr grandpa has died and gr gr grandma was living in Milton Street, Newtown, This all fits in with the last chimney to the manufactory being demolished in 1866. I've found a couple of maps showing the court but I shall have to pay a visit to Central Library to see what they have on the Brasshouse. There seems to be a modern building on the site in the picture but I wonder what was there before?
The trouble is I get so interested in the posts and photos that I go 'off at a tangent' and have to start again. It took me all afternoon to get to page 19 of this thread - only another 50 to go!
I got onto this thread as I was looking for Brasshouse Passage Court. It was behind the Brasshouse and Norman Bartlam says it is recorded that in 1864 there were 12 three-storey houses with stables and outbuildings but these were in a dilapidated state and 'fit only for a very low class of tenant'. Well that puts me firmly in my place as my gr gr grandparents were living there in 1861! I've lost them by the 1871 census and by 1881 gr gr grandpa has died and gr gr grandma was living in Milton Street, Newtown, This all fits in with the last chimney to the manufactory being demolished in 1866. I've found a couple of maps showing the court but I shall have to pay a visit to Central Library to see what they have on the Brasshouse. There seems to be a modern building on the site in the picture but I wonder what was there before?
The trouble is I get so interested in the posts and photos that I go 'off at a tangent' and have to start again. It took me all afternoon to get to page 19 of this thread - only another 50 to go!
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Does this help LP? An 1888 map and the Brasshouse Passage on Broad Street
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Whilst we are on this thread I might as well include this photo of Henns Walk taken sometime before it was widened out and made into a road which must have been sometime before 1920 as the maps after then show it as a road running from Moor St to Dale End. Previous to that it was only an alley with a tunnel entrance at the Moor St end.
Attachments
Lady Penelope
master brummie
Thanks Dennis but I do know that everything had gone by the 1880's. I have a copy of Norman Bartlam's book with the other picture in but I think I will have to go and find out more about the Brasshouse itself and the buildings behind in the early 1800's. I expect they were built for the workers/owners but whether there is any information I don't know. There is an earlier map from 1839 in Maps & Sketches from Georgian & Early Victorian Birmingham which shows a completely different layout. The area to the West of the Brasshouse is just 'small gardens' and the canal layout - how different from now! From the description I expect the houses were similar to those in the city centre. Thanks again.
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Now that's a great 'new one' to me Philip.....very dingy.....with both sides intact so to speak....the 'conventional' pic (from Carl's Book below), shows that one side was demolished, before the whole shebang went of course.....great contribution to the war effort Phil....many thanks....
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
This is Dowers Map of 1834 and an 1839 version of the area...maybe a bit more helpful?
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Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Now a question for you all....by now we are all probably aware of the Staffordshire Hoard equivalent for Old Brum Picture enthusiasts like me...the Warwickshire Shoothill Photographic Survey.....https://www.shoothill.com/demo/warwickshire-photographic-survey-deep-zoom/ ... and many of the fine photos have appeared on this site already, and more especially on the Facebook Forum.....but there are a number that intrigue me...first off, as a starter, this pic is captioned. THE OLD COACH YARD, BULL STREET, BIRMINGHAM......has anyone else heard of it, and if so, have we a map mike? It looks a bit odd to me....??
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
I agree it's a very good site Dennis, I first used this site not long after it opened but as I wasn't very keen on it's layout I didn't visit very often. Though I was recently reminded of the site by "pudding". I have to agree there is a lot more to see now, but as far as I am concerned the layout is still terrible.
Dennis.
There was an alley named coach yard on the 1828 and 1839 maps (marked in purple) , which ran along the back side of the Stork Hotel. I am assuming that Old Coach Yard is the same. When Corporation St was developed this area was considerably rebuilt . Judging by the fact that Coach Yard ran behind the Stork, i would say from the c1889 map that Coach Yard, extended and widened , became Dalton St (again in purple)
There was an alley named coach yard on the 1828 and 1839 maps (marked in purple) , which ran along the back side of the Stork Hotel. I am assuming that Old Coach Yard is the same. When Corporation St was developed this area was considerably rebuilt . Judging by the fact that Coach Yard ran behind the Stork, i would say from the c1889 map that Coach Yard, extended and widened , became Dalton St (again in purple)
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Thanks mike (and Phil). Great maps Phil....so that photo is very old.... if it was before Corporation Street was cut through....which began in 1878...so it might be OK as it WAS completed in 1905 though...great find anyway...very atmospheric....
Phil
Gone, but not forgotten.
Dennis they were Mikes maps
Dennis I would agree with Mike on the location of the Coach Yard, as this description here, mentions a few landmarks. Hudson's book shop would have then been at number 18 Bull Street which would be on the corner of the alley marked in pink on Mikes third map. The description comes from an Ebook in the Guttenburgh collection.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18821/18821-h/18821-h.htm
Bull Street was then the principal street in Birmingham for retail business, and it contained some very excellent shops. Most of the then existing names have disappeared, but a few remain. Mr. Suffield, to whose courtesy I am indebted for the loan of the rare print from which the frontispiece to this little book is copied, then occupied the premises near the bottom of the street, which he still retains. Mr. Adkins, the druggist, carried on the business established almost a century ago. He is now the oldest inhabitant of Bull Street, having been born in the house he still occupies before the commencement of the present century. Mr. Gargory—still hale, vigorous, and hearty, although rapidly approaching his eightieth year—then tenanted the shop next below Mr. Keirle, the fishmonger. His present shop and that of Mr. Harris, the dyer, occupy the site of the then Quakers' Meeting House, which was a long, barn-like building, standing lengthwise to the street, and not having a window on that side to break the dreary expanse of brickwork. Mr. Benson was in those days as celebrated for beef and civility as he is now. Mr. Page had just opened the shawl shop still carried on by his widow. Near the Coach Yard was the shop of Mr. Hudson, the bookseller, whose son still carries on the business established by his father in 1821. In 1837, Mr. Hudson, Sen., was the publisher of a very well conducted liberal paper called The Philanthropist.
Dennis I would agree with Mike on the location of the Coach Yard, as this description here, mentions a few landmarks. Hudson's book shop would have then been at number 18 Bull Street which would be on the corner of the alley marked in pink on Mikes third map. The description comes from an Ebook in the Guttenburgh collection.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18821/18821-h/18821-h.htm
Bull Street was then the principal street in Birmingham for retail business, and it contained some very excellent shops. Most of the then existing names have disappeared, but a few remain. Mr. Suffield, to whose courtesy I am indebted for the loan of the rare print from which the frontispiece to this little book is copied, then occupied the premises near the bottom of the street, which he still retains. Mr. Adkins, the druggist, carried on the business established almost a century ago. He is now the oldest inhabitant of Bull Street, having been born in the house he still occupies before the commencement of the present century. Mr. Gargory—still hale, vigorous, and hearty, although rapidly approaching his eightieth year—then tenanted the shop next below Mr. Keirle, the fishmonger. His present shop and that of Mr. Harris, the dyer, occupy the site of the then Quakers' Meeting House, which was a long, barn-like building, standing lengthwise to the street, and not having a window on that side to break the dreary expanse of brickwork. Mr. Benson was in those days as celebrated for beef and civility as he is now. Mr. Page had just opened the shawl shop still carried on by his widow. Near the Coach Yard was the shop of Mr. Hudson, the bookseller, whose son still carries on the business established by his father in 1821. In 1837, Mr. Hudson, Sen., was the publisher of a very well conducted liberal paper called The Philanthropist.
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Good old Elizier...my Old Pub guru! And thanks for that Phil...most interesting....proper history....the FB thing is usually just photos with very little text or 'stories'! like that...!
Dennis Williams
Gone but not forgotten
Here's another oddity...Tavolieri's back yard....and some pertinent text from I think Chinny's Italian Brummies book...I nicked it from this Forum, can't remember who posted it originally...but thanks whoever you are...
Organ grinding sounds a rather painful process but in the 1890s the trade was extremely lucrative. Thomas Biggins of 13, New Bartholomew Street regularly hired one such musical instrument but lacked the patience or charm of native Italian grinders. If spectators did not toss him a coin or two Biggins would threaten them with a large knife. When asked if he had anything to say in mitigation he replied: "I hope you will pity me. I am an orphan".
After being questioned as to his age the defendant replied that he was 25. In a sarcastic tone of voice the magistrate replied "An orphan and only 25 years of age!" He was then sentenced to one month inside.
Before the days of ice-cream wars, turf disputes over piano-grinder's pitches led to gang warfare. In 1893 Francesco Didunca and Silvestro Rossi were summoned for assaulting Cianghetto Martino and Antonio Tavolieri. The court was packed with tempestuous olive skinned families and harassed interpreters. Even the horses tethered outside were restless.
Accusations, in two languages, flew thick and fast. Tavolieri, speaking in Italian, swore that he'd met the two accused in "a wide street for men" which, when translated, turned out to be the more prosaic Hagley Road. Marrtino and Tavolieri were informed, in unambiguous terms, that the terrain belonged to the Rossisand had done so for 13 years,if they did not pick up their Hurdy Gurdy and get out of town fast they would have their throats slashed.At this crucial point, a loud whinny, from one of the horses, penetrated the silence of the court.
The tale continued. The Tavioleri's and Martino's had apparently stood their ground. Proud men, they were all too willing to fight for their families and the right to make music. Rossi unsheathed his knife, stabbed his mouthy opponent in the lip and proceeded to beat him with an iron bar. A full scale civil disturbance did not result in any clear cut winners.
Both parties were fined for the affray. This was surely just the opening round of a family saga destined to run and run.
Another Italian, Giaco Mantonio Fella, also relied on an interpreter in court. Prosecuted for being drunk and using obscene language, the police officer observed that when arrested he, (the Italian) swore in very good English. He was fined 2s. 6d.
I expect it's too much to find out exactly WHERE old Tavolieri lived? He said hopefully....
Organ grinding sounds a rather painful process but in the 1890s the trade was extremely lucrative. Thomas Biggins of 13, New Bartholomew Street regularly hired one such musical instrument but lacked the patience or charm of native Italian grinders. If spectators did not toss him a coin or two Biggins would threaten them with a large knife. When asked if he had anything to say in mitigation he replied: "I hope you will pity me. I am an orphan".
After being questioned as to his age the defendant replied that he was 25. In a sarcastic tone of voice the magistrate replied "An orphan and only 25 years of age!" He was then sentenced to one month inside.
Before the days of ice-cream wars, turf disputes over piano-grinder's pitches led to gang warfare. In 1893 Francesco Didunca and Silvestro Rossi were summoned for assaulting Cianghetto Martino and Antonio Tavolieri. The court was packed with tempestuous olive skinned families and harassed interpreters. Even the horses tethered outside were restless.
Accusations, in two languages, flew thick and fast. Tavolieri, speaking in Italian, swore that he'd met the two accused in "a wide street for men" which, when translated, turned out to be the more prosaic Hagley Road. Marrtino and Tavolieri were informed, in unambiguous terms, that the terrain belonged to the Rossisand had done so for 13 years,if they did not pick up their Hurdy Gurdy and get out of town fast they would have their throats slashed.At this crucial point, a loud whinny, from one of the horses, penetrated the silence of the court.
The tale continued. The Tavioleri's and Martino's had apparently stood their ground. Proud men, they were all too willing to fight for their families and the right to make music. Rossi unsheathed his knife, stabbed his mouthy opponent in the lip and proceeded to beat him with an iron bar. A full scale civil disturbance did not result in any clear cut winners.
Both parties were fined for the affray. This was surely just the opening round of a family saga destined to run and run.
Another Italian, Giaco Mantonio Fella, also relied on an interpreter in court. Prosecuted for being drunk and using obscene language, the police officer observed that when arrested he, (the Italian) swore in very good English. He was fined 2s. 6d.
I expect it's too much to find out exactly WHERE old Tavolieri lived? He said hopefully....
there only seems one person in the 1891 census who fits Tavolieri, and that is Antonio Tableari, organ grinder, who lodged with Dominic Diblicata, ice cream vendor at 5 bordesley St. The large scale c1889 map and smaller scale c1890 map does not show an entry by the house, but the c 1905 map does, as shown below (no 5 in red). there may have been some alterations between the nominally c1889 (which might have been as early as 1884) and the photo. There are also other changes around that part of the map also.
Hi Phil or mike
Do you recall a passage way down the side of snow hill
In the July 1806 it was a scene of an event which shocked brummies,
A night watchman called Robert twilfort stopped to question someone who was mooching about suspiciously,
Twilford was shot dead, and a man called Phillip mat sell was arrested, found guilty and condemned to hang from the spot
Of the crime, A gibbet was set half way down snow hill by great Charles street and 50.000 people gathered to witness
The sentence to be carried out
It was the first education inside the boundrys of Birmingham
Within area years snow hill was over whelmed by more changes
The great western railway decided to construct a major station opening g it in1852. Unlike the magnifiicent glass roof construction
Of The LMS at new street,the building at snow hill was a monster wooden shed,,, ugly and ungainliy
It was desribed as much a disgrace to the town as had been tumbled down building which had been demolished to make room for it
In 1871, the disliked station was torn down and redeveloped,the new building was grand and impressive,it had an entrance
With columns in colmore and from there it stretch the legth of of snow hill,
I believe this spot was marked many years ago by a sign many years ago as you walked up from snow hill walking up under the railway bridge
On great Charles street about one hundred yards once you have cleared the bridge as you are walking up the hill
This was there in the fortys and early fifties before being moved by some one or the council archives I suspect
Best wishes Alan ,,,Astonian,,,,,
Do you recall a passage way down the side of snow hill
In the July 1806 it was a scene of an event which shocked brummies,
A night watchman called Robert twilfort stopped to question someone who was mooching about suspiciously,
Twilford was shot dead, and a man called Phillip mat sell was arrested, found guilty and condemned to hang from the spot
Of the crime, A gibbet was set half way down snow hill by great Charles street and 50.000 people gathered to witness
The sentence to be carried out
It was the first education inside the boundrys of Birmingham
Within area years snow hill was over whelmed by more changes
The great western railway decided to construct a major station opening g it in1852. Unlike the magnifiicent glass roof construction
Of The LMS at new street,the building at snow hill was a monster wooden shed,,, ugly and ungainliy
It was desribed as much a disgrace to the town as had been tumbled down building which had been demolished to make room for it
In 1871, the disliked station was torn down and redeveloped,the new building was grand and impressive,it had an entrance
With columns in colmore and from there it stretch the legth of of snow hill,
I believe this spot was marked many years ago by a sign many years ago as you walked up from snow hill walking up under the railway bridge
On great Charles street about one hundred yards once you have cleared the bridge as you are walking up the hill
This was there in the fortys and early fifties before being moved by some one or the council archives I suspect
Best wishes Alan ,,,Astonian,,,,,
paul stacey
master brummie
Very interesting information Alan, I had always thought that Snow Hill had always looked like it did. Paul
Teddy Fan
master brummie
Mike,
Might that originally have been the Stock Hotel?
It may be a coincidence, but in the 18th century the public stocks were very near there - the junction of Dale End, Bull Street and High Street.
Hi Phil, yes that's the one Clive passage I forgot to mention the name I think last night on the thread about nameing Clive passage
I was reading about it and it dawned on me about where it was because as a youngen,
Comes body whom I was with on a particular Sunday afternoon in the early fifties as we was walking down great Charles street
Whom knew of the history and this story came back to me last night and that's how I came to pin point the place and postion of the metal plaque
That was place just below the actual borders of the bridge and there was a gap between the railway bridge and a building they built obvisiuosly
In the fortys that seperated the sign and some time around the 1953/5 period it was removed
That's how I was to say exactly the spot the plaque was and it was Clive passage its also written in the books about the birth of snow hill station
And the creationing of the station which I left out
Phil many thanks for confirming it when recalling all these grand building of that period its a shame to she them all destroyed
I have loads of books with all these building from 1700 s though the periods up until today's building
There is still area streets and roads and areas that have not changed around the centre of building like around the courts and various other places
But I surprise in given time they will all go. What's the word they say its progress ah hum. Bug
Have a good day best wishes Alan. ,,,,,,,Astonian,,,,,,
I was reading about it and it dawned on me about where it was because as a youngen,
Comes body whom I was with on a particular Sunday afternoon in the early fifties as we was walking down great Charles street
Whom knew of the history and this story came back to me last night and that's how I came to pin point the place and postion of the metal plaque
That was place just below the actual borders of the bridge and there was a gap between the railway bridge and a building they built obvisiuosly
In the fortys that seperated the sign and some time around the 1953/5 period it was removed
That's how I was to say exactly the spot the plaque was and it was Clive passage its also written in the books about the birth of snow hill station
And the creationing of the station which I left out
Phil many thanks for confirming it when recalling all these grand building of that period its a shame to she them all destroyed
I have loads of books with all these building from 1700 s though the periods up until today's building
There is still area streets and roads and areas that have not changed around the centre of building like around the courts and various other places
But I surprise in given time they will all go. What's the word they say its progress ah hum. Bug
Have a good day best wishes Alan. ,,,,,,,Astonian,,,,,,