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Mills Of Birmingham

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I have found reference to a "BREAMOTTS MILL" in Nechells, 1684, blade mill. It was leased for 21 years from Sir Charles Holt, to Joseph Hunt of Birmingham, a glover, on the 1st May 1684. I have not been able to find any other referemce as yet to this mill, do any of you kind people know any thing else about it. I don't think that it was the old Nechell's Park Mill, (but I may be wrong), because that fell into decay in 1672, and the new Nechell's Park Mill was leased by Thomas Banks from 1672 to 1693. Thanks in advance
:flower: :cat:
 
The buildings bottom right are encircled by a moat and are known as the Manor House. These date back to medieval times around 1200 or so in one form or another. Wether the moat was for defensive purposes or class status is no t known. To the left from there at the edge of this picture is the then parsonage which was also moated. The Rea was probably weird further up stream and a leat was constructed to supply water to the moats another channel was constructed to take the water back to the river. The leat can be seen here leading up diagonally from the bottom middle. A mill was constructed with a pond using the water from the moat channel. The water from this tailrace ran back into the Rea. The stream that runs across the bottom right corner, below the moat is not the Rea. It is another leat that was constructed to take the place of the moat run off and went directly to the mill pool. The moats were probably abandoned at that point. This is not the end of the story however. After leaving the mill the water ran down a constructed clay channel to further mills that were at or about the road bridge over the Rea. Maybe the origin of Claybrook maybe. The mill down below was a more substantial affair with several mill wheels and was into metal rolling. Its funny but if you look at GE today you can still see roads that were possibly influenced by the old man made stream layout.
Regards
 
Peter De Burmingeham 1166 was granted by Henry, King of England that he could have a market at his castle in Burmingeham, the next charter was granted by Richard the Lionheart 1189 in favour of the Monks of Bordesley, the next charter was granted in 1250 to William De Birmingham to hold a fair in the manor of Birmingham four days at Whitsun.........William De Bermingham joined forces with Simon De Monfort and was killed at the Battle of Evesham (I have a sculpture of this battle) so Roger De Clifford took over.
The Manor and Markets remained in the Bermingham Family till 1536 when the whole lot was placed in jeopardy when he was wrongly accused of Felony (Serious crime such as Murder or Arson) the estates changed hands again in 1545 which involved the Lady Jane Grey conspiracy etc.
The Manor of Brum  was taken over by Thomas Marrowe  which remained in his family for 191years......it passed from the Marrowes to the Archers until 1824 but
In order to take control of the tolls they took a lease out on the markets which they did in 1807......but The Commissioners for the City of Brum bought the lease for £12.500 in 1824......which was the old moated manor house of the de Berminghams
In 1817 the site was opened up as the Smithfield Cattle Market, then the wholesale vegetable market which was built in 1882-3 and extended in 1899 into Moat Row to a depth of 14 ft to get below the mud which marked the bottom of the old moat. The foundation  stones were laid out then for the construction of the Market Hall
Please accept I have condensed a great deal of info in this reply just to make it easy reading
 
Robert and Loisand, Let me go through it again. Takes a while to compile the info. I will post the web addresses. I thought that Claybrook Street would be at the run off from the Moat but after GEing it I see that it was the feed leat location. Probably the channel was lined with clay to prevent seepage.
.‚.. When you look at the roads there you wonder why they take the curves that they do and the answer may be that over time the original reason may have gone i.e. streams or brooks or leats but continuance and title may dictate maintenance of some of the original routes. Boundary and title lines often ran along streams and rivers and sometimes Leats.
.‚.. This very spot no doubt is where Birmingham began and it is absorbing. If you GE it you can see the curve at the bottom of Moat Lane where it joins Bradford street. Compare that to Cromwell's old map and you will see the same feature around the bottom right of the Manor moat. Look a little further down on GE and you will see Mill Lane right there. Google Claybrook Street and you will see the remains of a curving street leading to the moat. The parsonage area is long hidden. There only seems to be a little left of Worcester street. But Edgebaston Street remains and the semblance of St Martins Lane at the end of it is still there. The River Rea that started it all still runs through and where it runs under High Street Deritend is the site of the larger steel mill on the south bank. I don't know what they mean by steel mill. That term means rolling mill to me but maybe it means something other than this. I don't know. I think this little area is the source of the whole Birmingham thing and that little curve at the bottom of Moat Lane is so poignant don't you think. It refuses to give up. Perhaps anyone conducting tours of Birmingham should start at this very spot. I wonder is there a plaque there? I seem to remember seeing something on this site. I will be back.
 
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Rupert after studying this map drawn from city records in 1730 perhaps the two moats were fed by the natural spring at Ladywell
 
Much larger I have marked in Blue all the water, water from the top of the page comes from another spring
 
Cromwell. This is certainly interesting material. The records that I have read for the first Mill below the moat indicates that the moat run-off fed the mill and there may not have been enough water from a spring to satisfy this function. On the other hand the angle of remaining Claybrook Street does not seem to incline enough to reach the moats. If indeed this road was defined by an ancient track that led along the leat bank. Must run that way for some reason. So that perhaps the clay lined leat never ran to the moats and always was a feed to the Mill pond. The run off from the moats would also add to the supply. Mill Lane that ran to the mill yard is still there. Those moats and the leat are some of the earliest scrapings in the area.
The water seems to run down to a pooling of the Rea and thence under the road. I thought that the other mill mentioned in text might have been on the south side of the river since the text mentioned mills on both sides. I suspect the moats may have been a means of sanitation for the dwelling within as well as a privacy or defensive measure. They did supply running water as such. Outside loo's again. The picture included is left large for Loisand to download and can be reduced afterwards. You can see the curve in Moat Lane that was only ever there to get around the moat that was put there, who knows, 1200s? Remarkable.
Regards
 
Rupert Here is the proof that shows how the moats were first filled. Enclosed is a Drawing taken from The Story Of Birminghams Growth published 1911, it shows a drawing taken from a map of the town in the 16th Century ...............Moats filled from the Rea
 
Cromwell. I see but is there any text with the map. It may not be conclusive. The moats I think may have been draining into the mill pool. They would have been further up the hill so that your original thoughts may be right. I suspect that the origins of the manor location may be very old indeed. I wonder if the Romans were involved and was there a mill pond of sorts before the Manor. The leat may also have been redirected and there is text to this effect from records. It is easy however to see printed word and accept it as gospel when the author may have only been doing his or her best with the evidence that was available as are we. The picture by I A Ellis is great. It shows the houses that used to be inside the church grounds and stretching up the centre of the Bull Ring. Wonderful.
Regards.
 
Rupert I tend to agree with my last map the book is well wrote by William Moughton and starts with Barr Beacon which was an important centers for the Druids, then the Roman Legions tramped all over Birmingham before it existed as a hamlet, the first mention of Birmingham was in the Doomsday book.
Birmingham is rich in natural springs and a lot of factories were built over them (HP sauce and Ansell's are two) the moats were on flat ground and when the old markets were knocked down archaeologists moved in and excavated the site and found remains of the old manor house etc.I remember going to see it a few years ago during the redevelopment of the town
 
Here is a picture showing more of the area. You will see that there is a Ladywell Walk. Kind of a long way to go for a bath from the manor but needs must. Claybrook Street is marked. I wonder if that street ran along the old leat which maybe was lined with clay like the later canals. What other reason would there be for it's angle. Eileen has posted two pictures of the street that are great. The picture is again large for Loisand and can be deleted later. I am going to dig up some references now for Robert and will add to this.

https://www.virtualbrum.co.uk/history/brum3.htm

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=22970#s2
Read Mills on the Rea...the Malt Mill
.‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. Town Mill
.‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. .‚.. Heath Mill
 
Good research done there, but now I'm really going to act thick and ask is this all to do with Breamotts Mill?
:flower: :cat:
 
Just looking at this here has been a Renascence for me in the history of the area. As a boy I must have gone by there hundreds of times and not thought anything of it. I don't know, marbles were probably far more important then. But just reading what is available on the web and trying to relate it to existing topography brings back a nostalgia and understanding for the area that I would not ever have had except for this site and the people on it. This small effort for me boils down to a small curve at the bottom of Moat Lane. Nothing really I suppose, whats in a curve in a minor road; but if you think about it, that may be ground zero for Birmingham. The curve around the ancient moat. The place where the gates to the old manor were. The feed to an ancient mill. Possibly the start of a significant undertaking that would change everything and mostly for the better. No it's not an ancient wonder, heaven forbid that Birmingham could ever aspire to anything like that. It's much more than that.
Regards.
 
Rupert this is what History is all about, at times I think I bore folk but reading what you say inspires me a bit.........
 
I agree with Rupert and you Cromwell, and Rupert your findings have been superb, you really should look more into the way water gets to certain things, I haven't explained that to well, but the way you find out how the water flows to the mills is brilliant. History is a brilliant subject, but it's the findings out of how things get to A to B what obstacles get in the way etc. I hold my hat to you Rupert, well done :angel:
:flower: :cat:
 
Cromwell, the mill below the Manor moat shown on the diagrams was not the first mill below the Manor Moat. There was another mill above that in the Manor fore court outside the front gates of the moat called the Malt Mill or Moat Mill. This must have been fed by a channel that went under the road from the moat. The run off then went down to Lloyds Mill (aka Town Mill)that was below it. The text is in the refs. of my prior post. There is a road up there called Upper Mill Road and is still refereed to on the GE post. It leads to the Manor forecourt. I must put another pin on the picture. The mill below Deritend Bridge was Heath or Coopers Mill and was further down stream at junction with Heath Mill Lane. All of these mills were contemporary starting in the 1500s.
 
Rupert From the Moat down to Digbeth by the Rea their was about 6 mills but names have changed an got lost, Moor St(once called Mole St "Molendum meaning mill) in the 17th century had a Watermill but where the water came from is anyones guess
 
the rectory moat and the Manor moat were fed from a stream from Edgbaston called The Clear Water Stream from Edgbaston according to the 1553 map of Birmingham this ran parallel to the River Rhea diversion feeding Askericks Mill
I have the map
 
So it just goes to show every 100 years or so you have change and just have to go from one map to the other
 
John. Great map. The Rea and that stream are so close together. It's easy to be fooled. Asteriks Mill and Lloyds Mill are one and the same. It changed names a few times, Also product. If you zoom in on your map you can see Malt Mill right on Upper Mill Road in the Manor outer court. First time I have seen it. Leading from it is the discharge into Asteriks mill pond and I think you can just read mill fleame there. I wonder why it says the Manor Place and does not show buildings there.
Rupert.
 
John that is a fantastic map. I guess it's a Victorian re-drawing of something from the later 18th Century, but some names seem different from the better known ones.
Have downloaded it for further study. Thanks very much for showing it to us.
Peter
 
Rupert, what I spoke about in reply 222 Here is the photograph taken in 1975...........What a shame most Brummies dont know what they are walking on when they go to the Bull Ring Markets
Photo shows the left hand section of the Moat which was filled in ......in 1816
 
This drawing was done 2 years before the moat was filled in and by looking at the Spire of St Martins you can place it exact, the main buildings were rebuilt in the 18th c (the moat was the otherside of the fence)
 
Cromwell, in the picture are we looking at the moat wall. Was it bricked like that? The drawing is great. Finally a reasonably accurate looking perspective of what was. Some of the buildings look like they were timbered with thatch roofs but the central residence looks like brick. I wondered what was on the outside of the moat and now we can see. It was a sturdy low fence. We can also see that the moat was continuous and bridged at the entrance gate. What a fine drawing. It shows the poplars that are visible in the other picture that you posted. I had come to believe that the manor might have been a rudimentary conglomeration of buildings. Not so seemingly; it looks wonderful. Are there any more pictures by that draughtsman. On the maps you can see a reference to Cold Bath close to Ladywell. I wondered what that building could be until I finally remembered that our houses did not have bath rooms and if you wanted a bath you had to get the tin tub out and put it in front of the fire. Water had to be heated up on the stove to pour into it. Makes me shake to think about it. The alternative was to go to the public bath house,probably next to the swimming pool. There were plenty of such establishments. You would go in, pay your sixpence, receive a towel (not very large), a piece of soap and be shown to a cubicle with a large bath tub with feet. This was duly filled with warm water by the attendant who would then depart and you put the latch on the door. Maybe Cold Bath was an early public bath house. Sounds like us great unwashed did not rate warm water then. I seem to remember going to one of these establishment when there was a scabies outbreak. We had to stand naked and be sprayed down with an evil smelling solution. Gosh what a horror story.
Regards.
 
Rupert. Yes it is the moat wall (looking north far left end of it) their was also substantial sandstone buildings within the island which were rebuilt in the early 18c for a Brum Tradesman but he keep the medieval hall. I have a few more picures which I will scan a bit later and then might have to split topic as going of at a tangent.Ladywell was a building erected over a natural spring and somewhere I have a drawing of it which I will sort out.
 
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