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Midland Red Early Days
- Thread starter Thylacine
- Start date
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- 1900s 1910s bmmo early days midland red
Thylacine
master brummie
[FONT="]2010-04-16 00:13:35
Tillotson?
Wandering slightly off thread again: this splendid 1932 AEC lorry has bodywork by Oswald Tillotson Ltd (Burnley, Lancashire). Do you think this could be the Tillotson who built a charabanc body for Midland Red in 1919?
[I’m having tonnes of fun!]
[/FONT]
Tillotson?
Wandering slightly off thread again: this splendid 1932 AEC lorry has bodywork by Oswald Tillotson Ltd (Burnley, Lancashire). Do you think this could be the Tillotson who built a charabanc body for Midland Red in 1919?
[I’m having tonnes of fun!]
[/FONT]
Lloyd
master brummie
Still re HA 8 - I don't know if it is or not. HA 8 would have been issued mid 1907, the Republic chassis is not that old. I can't get a clear definition of the plate in the photo, it is (something) A (3 or 8). My best shot illustrated below.
Re Oswald Tillotson, post #16 on this page refers to the Tillotson body works at Manchester Rd, Burnley - this is the building there now, possibly the old body works. Yes I think it is the same company, they were commercial vehicle operators, dealers and body builders. They are now part of the Hanson group, see here and subsequent pages.
Re Oswald Tillotson, post #16 on this page refers to the Tillotson body works at Manchester Rd, Burnley - this is the building there now, possibly the old body works. Yes I think it is the same company, they were commercial vehicle operators, dealers and body builders. They are now part of the Hanson group, see here and subsequent pages.
Lloyd
master brummie
Re- post 263, my own records have at the heading of the 'C' (coach) body list, "The original nine charabanc bodies were probably second-hand and obtained in the early post-WW1 era, all except C1 finishing their lives in 1926. They may have had temporary mountings on other chassis before those listed c1919/20."
I wrote that some 3-4 decades ago, with research from the 'Hardy' volume, but thinking about it some of those bodies could well have been earlier still, and used for the same reason - conversion of former bus chassis to other uses in the wake of the 1914 take-over of bus services within Birmingham. It is also possible that like some smaller operators used to do, a chassis would carry a lorry body in the week and a charabanc one at weekends.
I wrote that some 3-4 decades ago, with research from the 'Hardy' volume, but thinking about it some of those bodies could well have been earlier still, and used for the same reason - conversion of former bus chassis to other uses in the wake of the 1914 take-over of bus services within Birmingham. It is also possible that like some smaller operators used to do, a chassis would carry a lorry body in the week and a charabanc one at weekends.
Thylacine
master brummie
Re "HA8": thanks for the magnification, Lloyd. Definitely ?A8?, but I fear "HA8" was wishful thinking on Alan Watkins part (he is a Midland Red enthusiast after all!).
Re C1-9:
C1 (Tillotson) and C2 (Taylor) are recorded (by Hardy) as coming to Midland Red in 1915, but not used until 1919 and 1920. C3 (Morecambe), C4 (Kilner & Brookes), C5 (Motor Hiring) and C6 (Collett & McDonald) arrive in 1916 but are not used until 1919, 1920, 1920 and 1919 (respectively). C7-8 (Scottish MT) arrive in 1918 and are used in that year. And C9 (Marston) arrives in 1919 and is used in 1920.
As you say, it's hard to believe that C1-6 would have been allowed to sit around unused for several years. Weekend use on Commercial Motor Hire Department lorries O9930-9936 - that makes a lot of (economic) sense. If only we had more information.
Re C1-9:
C1 (Tillotson) and C2 (Taylor) are recorded (by Hardy) as coming to Midland Red in 1915, but not used until 1919 and 1920. C3 (Morecambe), C4 (Kilner & Brookes), C5 (Motor Hiring) and C6 (Collett & McDonald) arrive in 1916 but are not used until 1919, 1920, 1920 and 1919 (respectively). C7-8 (Scottish MT) arrive in 1918 and are used in that year. And C9 (Marston) arrives in 1919 and is used in 1920.
As you say, it's hard to believe that C1-6 would have been allowed to sit around unused for several years. Weekend use on Commercial Motor Hire Department lorries O9930-9936 - that makes a lot of (economic) sense. If only we had more information.
Thylacine
master brummie
Interesting information on Tillotson, Lloyd. I agree we might have the right firm. He's not from Birmingham, so I don't particularly feel like researching him further! 
Perhaps something will crop up linking him to Midland Red.
There's a (tiny) picture of C1 (Tillotson) in 1919 on ex-Edinburgh TS3 (registered AC32 ex-S4445) in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 33 top left). And pictures of C1 on A262 (reg E1843 TS3 ex-NWMOT Feb 1918 new 1916) in 1923 (page 33 top right) and c 1925 (page 172 top right in good company!).
Now Davidson made 36 charabanc bodies for Midland Red in 1923-1926, yet I can't find anything about them. Any ideas?
Perhaps something will crop up linking him to Midland Red.There's a (tiny) picture of C1 (Tillotson) in 1919 on ex-Edinburgh TS3 (registered AC32 ex-S4445) in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 33 top left). And pictures of C1 on A262 (reg E1843 TS3 ex-NWMOT Feb 1918 new 1916) in 1923 (page 33 top right) and c 1925 (page 172 top right in good company!).
Now Davidson made 36 charabanc bodies for Midland Red in 1923-1926, yet I can't find anything about them. Any ideas?
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Lloyd
master brummie
Davidson are proving difficult (or rather, slow) to investigate. They were in Trafford Park, Manchester, and bodied vehicles for Ford (also in Trafford Park) and supplied the van bodies to Morris for their 8/10 cwt chassis 1924-6.
However, during my search I found this interesting page on a Mr William Davidson and his early Daimler motor bus in Bishop Aukland, which states he moved to Erdington in 1906 - and is found in the 1911 census as a coal merchant at 139 Gravelly Lane with wife Mary Ann and daughters Kate Blanche (9) Iris (7) and Clara Gertrude (4). The latter was born Erdington, all the others County Durham (the two elder daughters at Hgh Grange, fairly conclusive proof it is the same family).
Now, W.W. Greener lived in Erdington, and ran a 10 seater Daimler on his short-lived bus service. I know 1902 and 1906 aren't the same, but allow for a little error in the dates - and is the Greener Daimler formerly the Davidson one?? By the looks it is (at a squeeze!) a 10 seater.
The writer of the article, a Mr Dukes, must be the son of Iris Davidson who married a Joseph H Dukes in Birmingham North district, 1st quarter 1930.
However, during my search I found this interesting page on a Mr William Davidson and his early Daimler motor bus in Bishop Aukland, which states he moved to Erdington in 1906 - and is found in the 1911 census as a coal merchant at 139 Gravelly Lane with wife Mary Ann and daughters Kate Blanche (9) Iris (7) and Clara Gertrude (4). The latter was born Erdington, all the others County Durham (the two elder daughters at Hgh Grange, fairly conclusive proof it is the same family).
Now, W.W. Greener lived in Erdington, and ran a 10 seater Daimler on his short-lived bus service. I know 1902 and 1906 aren't the same, but allow for a little error in the dates - and is the Greener Daimler formerly the Davidson one?? By the looks it is (at a squeeze!) a 10 seater.
The writer of the article, a Mr Dukes, must be the son of Iris Davidson who married a Joseph H Dukes in Birmingham North district, 1st quarter 1930.
Thylacine
master brummie
Daimlers in Erdington 1902-1906.
2010-04-16 09:05:54
Lloyd, I'm intrigued by a possible connection between W W Greener and William Davidson of Bishop Auckland (great picture by the way!). We discussed W W Greener's 1902 Erdington motor bus venture on another thread. Just for reference, here's the relevant quote from Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1:
"However, no motor omnibus appears to have entered regular service in the Birmingham area until Monday, 8th September, 1902, when a 10-seater Daimler commenced to run between Erdington Green and Salford Bridge, the terminus of the steam tramway to Birmingham, The licence was made out to a Mr. W. W. Greener, a local property owner, and a fare of 2d was charged for the journey of under a mile and a half in distance. It seems probable that the service only lasted a few weeks – nothing more is known of it. In any case, the route was also covered by horse omnibuses."
[If Hardy’s date is correct (and he is very precise, as if quoting a contemporary newspaper report), then this was just prior to the establishment of the better-known Birmingham Motor Express Co Ltd in early 1903.]
There's a three to four year gap until William Davidson arrived in Erdington with his 1899 Daimler charabanc. But the co-incidence is fascinating. Davidson might have adapted his Daimler to his coal business.
I couldn't resist uploading the picture (it's the earliest motor charabanc I've ever seen):
2010-04-16 09:05:54
Lloyd, I'm intrigued by a possible connection between W W Greener and William Davidson of Bishop Auckland (great picture by the way!). We discussed W W Greener's 1902 Erdington motor bus venture on another thread. Just for reference, here's the relevant quote from Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1:
"However, no motor omnibus appears to have entered regular service in the Birmingham area until Monday, 8th September, 1902, when a 10-seater Daimler commenced to run between Erdington Green and Salford Bridge, the terminus of the steam tramway to Birmingham, The licence was made out to a Mr. W. W. Greener, a local property owner, and a fare of 2d was charged for the journey of under a mile and a half in distance. It seems probable that the service only lasted a few weeks – nothing more is known of it. In any case, the route was also covered by horse omnibuses."
[If Hardy’s date is correct (and he is very precise, as if quoting a contemporary newspaper report), then this was just prior to the establishment of the better-known Birmingham Motor Express Co Ltd in early 1903.]
There's a three to four year gap until William Davidson arrived in Erdington with his 1899 Daimler charabanc. But the co-incidence is fascinating. Davidson might have adapted his Daimler to his coal business.
I couldn't resist uploading the picture (it's the earliest motor charabanc I've ever seen):
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Thylacine
master brummie
Davidson's 1899 Daimler.
Strictly, William Davidson's 1899 Daimler isn't a charabanc; the seating is longitudinal. It might be what they called a "waggonette". I agree you could fit ten small ones in the back and one more next to the driver perhaps.
These early motor bus pioneers were brave souls, weren't they?
[I think I saw Bill Davidson's ghost looking out from the upstairs window of 137 Gravelly Lane!]
Strictly, William Davidson's 1899 Daimler isn't a charabanc; the seating is longitudinal. It might be what they called a "waggonette". I agree you could fit ten small ones in the back and one more next to the driver perhaps.
These early motor bus pioneers were brave souls, weren't they?
[I think I saw Bill Davidson's ghost looking out from the upstairs window of 137 Gravelly Lane!]
Thylacine
master brummie
Davidson (Trafford Park) Ltd
2010-04-16 10:26:00
Lloyd, thanks to your "Trafford Park" reference for Davidson, I've searched the London Gazette and traced the last days of this company:
12 Jan 1923 Creditor James W Southern & Son Ltd (timber merchants, Store St Saw Mills, Manchester) petitions for winding-up of Davidson (Trafford Park) Ltd. [This appears to have been resolved "quietly".]
7 Feb 1930 meeting of Davidson (Trafford Park) Ltd resolves to voluntarily wind up. C A Grundy (secretary).
21 Dec 1931 last meeting of Davidson (Trafford Park) Ltd to complete winding up. E A Radford (liquidator).
2010-04-16 10:26:00
Lloyd, thanks to your "Trafford Park" reference for Davidson, I've searched the London Gazette and traced the last days of this company:
12 Jan 1923 Creditor James W Southern & Son Ltd (timber merchants, Store St Saw Mills, Manchester) petitions for winding-up of Davidson (Trafford Park) Ltd. [This appears to have been resolved "quietly".]
7 Feb 1930 meeting of Davidson (Trafford Park) Ltd resolves to voluntarily wind up. C A Grundy (secretary).
21 Dec 1931 last meeting of Davidson (Trafford Park) Ltd to complete winding up. E A Radford (liquidator).
Thylacine
master brummie
Davidson (Traffic Park) Ltd.
2010-04-16 10:49:47
Tom Dethridge writes (re Portsmouth Corporation Transport):
"Eight more Dennises of type E followed in 1928 ... as well as six more Karriers, and came from yet a different body-builder, Davidson (Trafford Park) Limited of Manchester, the undertaking's first rear-entrance saloon buses, 32-seaters of upright design, rugged rather than attractive ..."
"Dennis Comes to Portsmouth"
Solent Bus News (Issue 173 Oct 2008 page 7).
[A very "flash" website, but it wouldn't let me copy the text!]
2010-04-16 10:49:47
Tom Dethridge writes (re Portsmouth Corporation Transport):
"Eight more Dennises of type E followed in 1928 ... as well as six more Karriers, and came from yet a different body-builder, Davidson (Trafford Park) Limited of Manchester, the undertaking's first rear-entrance saloon buses, 32-seaters of upright design, rugged rather than attractive ..."
"Dennis Comes to Portsmouth"
Solent Bus News (Issue 173 Oct 2008 page 7).
[A very "flash" website, but it wouldn't let me copy the text!]
Lloyd
master brummie
Back to Kidderminster and Stourport tramways for a moment, here is cross-bench car (formerly trailer) 9 in festive garb at the junction of Foundry St and Lombard St, Stourport. The properties can easily be identified in this present day view!
Lloyd
master brummie
And here is single deck car 2 at the Bridge Street terminus, with the Bridge Inn on the left and the Crown Hotel on the right, both still there today.
Thylacine
master brummie
Staffordshire Potteries Street Railway 1863-1879.
[FONT="]2010-04-16 23:18:54
On the subject of old tramways, lets go to Staffordshire for a moment. Here is an interesting Staffordshire Past Track picture of horse-drawn tramcar "Justice" on a Hanley (Fountain Square) – Burslem (Marketplace) service in the Potteries district. This tramway was established in 1863 by the Staffordshire Potteries Street Railway Co Ltd (SPSR) at the urging of US entrepreneur George Francis Train (24 Mar 1829 – 18 Jan 1904). One of the SPSR directors was local solicitor Frederick Bishop (15 Dec 1815 – 25 Aug 1891). SPSR was taken over in 1879 probably by the North Staffordshire Tramways Co Ltd (established 1878). The old company was wound up, the last SPSR meeting being on 15 December 1880.
The picture is captioned "1880" but looks a lot older to me. I would date it to the 1860s. It is over-exposed, but if you download a copy (for personal use of course!) you can fiddle with the brightness and contrast with quite passable results.
The Hanley – Burslem horse tramway was the longest lasting of G F Train's "street railways" of the 1860s. The three he set up in London (the Marble Arch Street Rail Co Ltd, the Westminster Street Rail Co Ltd and the Surrey Side Street Rail Co Ltd) lasted only a matter of months because the raised rails were unpopular with other road users. The Birkenhead Street Railway Co Ltd tramway lasted from 30 Aug 1860 to 1877 when it was sold to the Birkenhead Tramways Co Ltd. The Darlington Street Railroad Co Ltd tramway lasted from 1 Jan 1862 to 1 Jan 1865 but attracted vigorous local opposition (it was condemned by the Darlington Board of Health!). The Aldershot Street Rail Co Ltd was established on 4 Dec 1861 but came to nothing.
G F Train concluded an agreement with Birmingham Corporation on 7 Aug 1860 to lay a tramway in Birmingham, but nothing came of it and he returned to the US in 1862. A metal token inscribed "Warwickshire Street Railway Ltd" on one side and "Train's Patent" (with a picture of a horse tram) on the other was sold for £85 by Paddington Ticket Auctions Ltd in Oct 2002.
G F Train was oddly named for a tramway man, but he had been involved in the development of railways in the US. He liked to give his tramcars grand names like "The People", "Victoria", "Napoleon", "Nelson", "Wellington" and "Justice". He was a great character and something of a con-man. He had established his business career in Melbourne in the gold rush years 1853-1855. His world travels were the stuff of legend: he claimed to be the inspiration for the character Phileas Fogg in Jules Verne's novel Around the World in Eighty Days (1873).
[I know I'm wandering off thread here! Staffordshire is the excuse, and Birmingham does get a mention!] [/FONT]
[FONT="]2010-04-16 23:18:54
On the subject of old tramways, lets go to Staffordshire for a moment. Here is an interesting Staffordshire Past Track picture of horse-drawn tramcar "Justice" on a Hanley (Fountain Square) – Burslem (Marketplace) service in the Potteries district. This tramway was established in 1863 by the Staffordshire Potteries Street Railway Co Ltd (SPSR) at the urging of US entrepreneur George Francis Train (24 Mar 1829 – 18 Jan 1904). One of the SPSR directors was local solicitor Frederick Bishop (15 Dec 1815 – 25 Aug 1891). SPSR was taken over in 1879 probably by the North Staffordshire Tramways Co Ltd (established 1878). The old company was wound up, the last SPSR meeting being on 15 December 1880.
The picture is captioned "1880" but looks a lot older to me. I would date it to the 1860s. It is over-exposed, but if you download a copy (for personal use of course!) you can fiddle with the brightness and contrast with quite passable results.
The Hanley – Burslem horse tramway was the longest lasting of G F Train's "street railways" of the 1860s. The three he set up in London (the Marble Arch Street Rail Co Ltd, the Westminster Street Rail Co Ltd and the Surrey Side Street Rail Co Ltd) lasted only a matter of months because the raised rails were unpopular with other road users. The Birkenhead Street Railway Co Ltd tramway lasted from 30 Aug 1860 to 1877 when it was sold to the Birkenhead Tramways Co Ltd. The Darlington Street Railroad Co Ltd tramway lasted from 1 Jan 1862 to 1 Jan 1865 but attracted vigorous local opposition (it was condemned by the Darlington Board of Health!). The Aldershot Street Rail Co Ltd was established on 4 Dec 1861 but came to nothing.
G F Train concluded an agreement with Birmingham Corporation on 7 Aug 1860 to lay a tramway in Birmingham, but nothing came of it and he returned to the US in 1862. A metal token inscribed "Warwickshire Street Railway Ltd" on one side and "Train's Patent" (with a picture of a horse tram) on the other was sold for £85 by Paddington Ticket Auctions Ltd in Oct 2002.
G F Train was oddly named for a tramway man, but he had been involved in the development of railways in the US. He liked to give his tramcars grand names like "The People", "Victoria", "Napoleon", "Nelson", "Wellington" and "Justice". He was a great character and something of a con-man. He had established his business career in Melbourne in the gold rush years 1853-1855. His world travels were the stuff of legend: he claimed to be the inspiration for the character Phileas Fogg in Jules Verne's novel Around the World in Eighty Days (1873).
[I know I'm wandering off thread here! Staffordshire is the excuse, and Birmingham does get a mention!] [/FONT]
Thylacine
master brummie
1899 Daimler Imperial.
[FONT="]2010-04-16 23:45:42
Here's a splendid picture of an 1899 Daimler Imperial double-decker bus (courtesy of the Daimler Global Media Site). Pity the poor driver![/FONT]
[FONT="]2010-04-16 23:45:42
Here's a splendid picture of an 1899 Daimler Imperial double-decker bus (courtesy of the Daimler Global Media Site). Pity the poor driver![/FONT]
Lloyd
master brummie
What a great machine! I'd love to have a go at driving that round the museum!
Interesting name, 'Imperial'. It seems to be the common name across Europe for a double decker (l'autobus a imperial), and Morris Commercial in the UK used it for their only double deck bus chassis.
Interesting name, 'Imperial'. It seems to be the common name across Europe for a double decker (l'autobus a imperial), and Morris Commercial in the UK used it for their only double deck bus chassis.
Thylacine
master brummie
Birmingham Steam Buses 1830s.
2010-04-17 16:29:21
Here is a good webpage on early Birmingham public transport (part of Bob Miles's excellent Birmingham Jewellery Quarter site). One of his sources of information is:
Alec G Jenson. Birmingham Transport: A History of Public Road Transport in the Birmingham Area; Volume1. Birmingham Transport Historical Group, 1978.
Has anyone seen this book? I believe Peter Walker referred to it very early on this thread. I would dearly love to get hold of a copy.
Miles discusses two "steam bus" ventures in Birmingham in the early 1830s. One of them involved the London & Birmingham Steam Carriage Co (LBSC) which issued a prospectus in 1832 offering 10,000 shares at £20 each. The chairman was American-born Birmingham financier Henry Van Wart (1784-1873) who on 26 Dec 1838 would be elected alderman for Edgbaston ward on the new Birmingham Borough Council. Another director was "button and military ornament manufacturer, dealer and chapman" Joseph Phipson. Some sources state that LBSC was incorporated by an act of parliament, but I can find no trace of this. It seems that the company was formally established by an "indenture or deed of settlement" on 3 Nov 1834. The "mechanical genius" behind LBSC was William H Church (c 1778-1863) of Haywood House, Bordesley Green (but also originating in the US), who assumed the title "Dr" (to which he was not entitled). Church patented several steam carriage designs from 1832 onwards. The version supposedly built and trialled by LBSC was a three-wheeled monstrosity seating 22 inside and 22 "on top". This vehicle is alleged to have attained speeds of up to 14 mph on a journey from Birmingham to Stonebridge in 1833. Ray Girvan (JSBlog) casts some well-researched doubts on the Church steam bus story. Over the signature of aptly-named company secretary W R Kettle, the London Gazette announced that LBSC had been wound up by its directors on 11 May 1837. Meanwhile William Church (civil engineer, dealer and chapman of Aston) was hit with a "fiat of bankruptcy" on 23 Apr 1835. Former LBSC director Joseph Phipson also seems to have been driven into bankruptcy by this ill-starred venture.
Disaster seems to have followed William Church. He went on to build an 0-2-2 railway locomotive named "Victoria", which is reported to have reached 60 mph in Jan 1838 when on trial as a London & Birmingham Railway ballast locomotive. By 1840 it was renamed "Surprise" and was transferred to the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway for use on the Lickey Incline. Tragically, on 10 Nov 1840 its boiler exploded at Bromsgrove station, killing 28 year old driver Thomas Scaife instantly. Fireman John Rutherford (aged 32) died of his injuries the following day. The aptly named "Surprise" was fitted with a new boiler and renamed "Eclipse", under which name it was seen at Camp Hill Station in 1850. By the late 1850s it was rebuilt as a six-coupled locomotive for the Swansea Vale Railway.
The other steam carriage venture of the 1830s was the work of the Birmingham Heaton family, later famous for their involvement with the Birmingham Mint. As early as 1826 George Heaton and his brothers had secured a patent relating to steam propelled vehicles. On 6 Oct 1830 patent 6006 for "a design of a steam carriage" was registered. In 1832 trials were conducted in Birmingham of the Heaton steam carriage, which comprised a steam tractor towing a stage coach. In Aug 1833 it ran from Birmingham to Bromsgrove with 20 passengers, reaching Northfield at an average speed of 7.5 mph and climbing the 1 in 8 Lickey Incline at 2.5 mph. Later in the year a company was established to operate Heaton steam carriages, and the offer of £10 shares was over-subscribed. The Heatons worked on four carriages, but it is unclear if they ever entered service. In Nov 1834 the company was wound up, shareholders receiving just £1 per share.
[More information on the Heaton venture would be most welcome. I would like to know the full names and dates of George Heaton and his brothers, and the name of the company set up in late 1833. In the interests of "thread purity" we probably shouldn't go on about this for too long. I'm probably lucky to have got away with this post! Also bankrupt William Church of Aston may not be the same person as William Church the steam carriage builder.]
2010-04-17 16:29:21
Here is a good webpage on early Birmingham public transport (part of Bob Miles's excellent Birmingham Jewellery Quarter site). One of his sources of information is:
Alec G Jenson. Birmingham Transport: A History of Public Road Transport in the Birmingham Area; Volume1. Birmingham Transport Historical Group, 1978.
Has anyone seen this book? I believe Peter Walker referred to it very early on this thread. I would dearly love to get hold of a copy.
Miles discusses two "steam bus" ventures in Birmingham in the early 1830s. One of them involved the London & Birmingham Steam Carriage Co (LBSC) which issued a prospectus in 1832 offering 10,000 shares at £20 each. The chairman was American-born Birmingham financier Henry Van Wart (1784-1873) who on 26 Dec 1838 would be elected alderman for Edgbaston ward on the new Birmingham Borough Council. Another director was "button and military ornament manufacturer, dealer and chapman" Joseph Phipson. Some sources state that LBSC was incorporated by an act of parliament, but I can find no trace of this. It seems that the company was formally established by an "indenture or deed of settlement" on 3 Nov 1834. The "mechanical genius" behind LBSC was William H Church (c 1778-1863) of Haywood House, Bordesley Green (but also originating in the US), who assumed the title "Dr" (to which he was not entitled). Church patented several steam carriage designs from 1832 onwards. The version supposedly built and trialled by LBSC was a three-wheeled monstrosity seating 22 inside and 22 "on top". This vehicle is alleged to have attained speeds of up to 14 mph on a journey from Birmingham to Stonebridge in 1833. Ray Girvan (JSBlog) casts some well-researched doubts on the Church steam bus story. Over the signature of aptly-named company secretary W R Kettle, the London Gazette announced that LBSC had been wound up by its directors on 11 May 1837. Meanwhile William Church (civil engineer, dealer and chapman of Aston) was hit with a "fiat of bankruptcy" on 23 Apr 1835. Former LBSC director Joseph Phipson also seems to have been driven into bankruptcy by this ill-starred venture.
Disaster seems to have followed William Church. He went on to build an 0-2-2 railway locomotive named "Victoria", which is reported to have reached 60 mph in Jan 1838 when on trial as a London & Birmingham Railway ballast locomotive. By 1840 it was renamed "Surprise" and was transferred to the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway for use on the Lickey Incline. Tragically, on 10 Nov 1840 its boiler exploded at Bromsgrove station, killing 28 year old driver Thomas Scaife instantly. Fireman John Rutherford (aged 32) died of his injuries the following day. The aptly named "Surprise" was fitted with a new boiler and renamed "Eclipse", under which name it was seen at Camp Hill Station in 1850. By the late 1850s it was rebuilt as a six-coupled locomotive for the Swansea Vale Railway.
The other steam carriage venture of the 1830s was the work of the Birmingham Heaton family, later famous for their involvement with the Birmingham Mint. As early as 1826 George Heaton and his brothers had secured a patent relating to steam propelled vehicles. On 6 Oct 1830 patent 6006 for "a design of a steam carriage" was registered. In 1832 trials were conducted in Birmingham of the Heaton steam carriage, which comprised a steam tractor towing a stage coach. In Aug 1833 it ran from Birmingham to Bromsgrove with 20 passengers, reaching Northfield at an average speed of 7.5 mph and climbing the 1 in 8 Lickey Incline at 2.5 mph. Later in the year a company was established to operate Heaton steam carriages, and the offer of £10 shares was over-subscribed. The Heatons worked on four carriages, but it is unclear if they ever entered service. In Nov 1834 the company was wound up, shareholders receiving just £1 per share.
[More information on the Heaton venture would be most welcome. I would like to know the full names and dates of George Heaton and his brothers, and the name of the company set up in late 1833. In the interests of "thread purity" we probably shouldn't go on about this for too long. I'm probably lucky to have got away with this post! Also bankrupt William Church of Aston may not be the same person as William Church the steam carriage builder.]
Thylacine
master brummie
Sorry Dr Church.
2010-04-17 19:08:05
I have done William Church an injustice. I said that he was not entitled to be called Dr Church, yet he is listed in Pigot 1835 as:
Church William, physician, Haywood House, Bordesley Green.
The only other listings I have found in the period which could possibly be the steam carriage builder are:
Church Dr, Green Lanes. [Wrightson 1835]
Church Wm, civil engineer, 91 High St, Bordesley. [Pigot 1842]
2010-04-17 19:08:05
I have done William Church an injustice. I said that he was not entitled to be called Dr Church, yet he is listed in Pigot 1835 as:
Church William, physician, Haywood House, Bordesley Green.
The only other listings I have found in the period which could possibly be the steam carriage builder are:
Church Dr, Green Lanes. [Wrightson 1835]
Church Wm, civil engineer, 91 High St, Bordesley. [Pigot 1842]
Thylacine
master brummie
Heatons Steam Carriage Company.
2010-04-17 19:46:35
Mechanics' Magazine, Museum, Register, Journal and Gazette. No 560 (3 May 1834). Letter to the Editor. [Somewhat edited.]
Sir, — The advocates for steam travelling on common turnpike-roads have, for some time past, been anxiously awaiting the debut of Messrs Heaton Brothers' new locomotive, which has at length taken place. The sanguine expectations which Messrs Heatons previously eminently successful experiments gave rise to, have, however, been disappointed by the results of more recent trials with the new and more powerful engine. In this engine the weight, wear and tear, and consumption of steam have proved so much greater than was calculated upon, that Messrs Heatons have been compelled to entertain views on the subject differing widely from those with which they started.
In the course of a few experimental trips with their new engine, which is a very beautiful machine, Messrs Heatons have been compelled to doubt the possibility of steam locomotion on common roads, at an average speed of ten miles an hour, the wear and tear of machinery, with other incidental expenses, being so great as to exceed any probable receipts; profitable running, therefore, at this speed — and it is presumed a slower would not be tolerated — they believe to be impracticable.
The following paragraph appeared in the Birmingham Journal of the 12th instant: —
"We are authorised by the committee of Heatons' Steam-Carriage Company to state that the result of the experiments hitherto made with their engine has not proved satisfactory, and that they will shortly call a meeting of the shareholders to take into consideration a communication made to the committee by Messrs Heatons on the subject."
After expending upwards of two thousand pounds in endeavouring to effect steam travelling, Messrs Heatons now retire from the field; their candid and upright conduct throughout this business is highly honourable to them, and forms a striking contrast to the delusions practised elsewhere.
I am, sir, yours respectfully,
W Baddeley.
10 Wilderness Row, Goswell Street.
April 28, 1834.
[The phrase "the delusions practised elsewhere" possibly refers to Dr Church's venture.]
2010-04-17 19:46:35
Mechanics' Magazine, Museum, Register, Journal and Gazette. No 560 (3 May 1834). Letter to the Editor. [Somewhat edited.]
Sir, — The advocates for steam travelling on common turnpike-roads have, for some time past, been anxiously awaiting the debut of Messrs Heaton Brothers' new locomotive, which has at length taken place. The sanguine expectations which Messrs Heatons previously eminently successful experiments gave rise to, have, however, been disappointed by the results of more recent trials with the new and more powerful engine. In this engine the weight, wear and tear, and consumption of steam have proved so much greater than was calculated upon, that Messrs Heatons have been compelled to entertain views on the subject differing widely from those with which they started.
In the course of a few experimental trips with their new engine, which is a very beautiful machine, Messrs Heatons have been compelled to doubt the possibility of steam locomotion on common roads, at an average speed of ten miles an hour, the wear and tear of machinery, with other incidental expenses, being so great as to exceed any probable receipts; profitable running, therefore, at this speed — and it is presumed a slower would not be tolerated — they believe to be impracticable.
The following paragraph appeared in the Birmingham Journal of the 12th instant: —
"We are authorised by the committee of Heatons' Steam-Carriage Company to state that the result of the experiments hitherto made with their engine has not proved satisfactory, and that they will shortly call a meeting of the shareholders to take into consideration a communication made to the committee by Messrs Heatons on the subject."
After expending upwards of two thousand pounds in endeavouring to effect steam travelling, Messrs Heatons now retire from the field; their candid and upright conduct throughout this business is highly honourable to them, and forms a striking contrast to the delusions practised elsewhere.
I am, sir, yours respectfully,
W Baddeley.
10 Wilderness Row, Goswell Street.
April 28, 1834.
[The phrase "the delusions practised elsewhere" possibly refers to Dr Church's venture.]
Thylacine
master brummie
W G and R Heaton's Steam Carriage.
2010-04-17 20:10:26
Here is a brief technical description of W G and R Heaton's steam carriage, excerpted from:
Luke Hebert. The Engineer's and Mechanic's Encyclopaedia. Volume 2. London: Thomas Kelly, 1849.
NOTE ADDED 11 July 2010:
[I have discovered that the website linked to above contains incorrect information: [1] the steam carriage pictured is not that of the Heaton brothers, but is taken from a patent registered on 19 July 1830 by Messrs Rawe and Boase; [2] the text is corrupt. To put things right, I quote below (my emphasis) the Heaton text from the first edition (1836) of the work previously quoted, followed by the correct text from the 1849 edition. The 1836 text is fascinating in that it was written much closer in time to the events described.]
1836 Text:
Messrs W G and R Heaton of Birmingham have built several steam carriages which have operated with various degrees of success in their own neighbourhood. Their patent is dated 5 October 1830. The complicated nature of the machinery exhibited, in the specification of this patent, renders it quite impossible to make it fully understood without a series of drawings, and a detailed description, for which we cannot find room in this article. We shall therefore confine ourselves to the methods which the patentees adopt to accomplish the object they have in view: that of guidance of a locomotive carriage, and the management of the steam apparatus, that the power and speed may be accommodated to the nature of the road, the quantity of the load, etc.
For the purpose of steering the carriage, a vertical spindle is placed at some distance before the axle of the front wheels, and on its lower end a small drum is fixed. Around this drum is coiled a chain with its middle fixed upon the drum, and its ends made secure to the front axle at a considerable distance from the middle, so that the chain and axle may form a triangle with the drum, situated at the angle opposite the longest side. The other end of the vertical spindle is connected with a frame situated in front of the coachman's, or rather steersman's seat; and here is fixed upon the spindle a horizontal bevelled-toothed wheel. Over this wheel an axis extends, terminating in two crank handles proceeding from the axes in different directions, so that one will be down when the other is up; and upon this axle is fixed another bevelled-toothed wheel taking into the first. Now it is evident when these wheels are turned in one direction the right-hand fore wheel of the carriage will be advanced , and the coach will be turned towards the left, while if they turned in the other direction, the left-hand wheel will be advanced, and the carriage will be turned towards the right. This plan of steering will be immediately recognised by our readers as the same with that adopted by Mr James.
The driving wheels, or those to which the power of the engines is to be applied, are connected with the axle by means of a pair of ratchets furnished with a double set of ratchet teeth and a reversing pawl. By this contrivance one wheel can be advanced or backed while the other is stationary, or moving in a contrary direction; an arrangement which becomes necessary in the act of turning and backing. The means of acting upon the reversing pawl is brought within the reach of the steersman by means of a set of connecting rods and lever.
Motion is communicated to the driving wheels by a double set of spur wheel gear, arranged to give different powers or velocities, by having both a large and a small wheel fixed on the driving as well as the driven axis. By shifting the large wheel on the driving axis into gear with the small wheel on the driven axis, speed is obtained; and by shifting their relative position till the small wheel on the driving axis comes into gear with the large wheel on the driven axis, power is obtained at the expense of speed. These two axes are kept at the same distance from each other by means of connecting rods, notwithstanding the relative position may be changed by the motion of the carriage on rough roads.
These patentees do not claim novelty in any one of their arrangements in a detached form, but only the combination of the whole, as they have described them in their specification. A principal merit of the arrangement seems to be, that all the adjustments are brought within reach of the man having the guidance of the carriage.
1849 Text:
Messrs W G and R Heaton of Birmingham built several steam carriages under a patent-right dated 1830; but their mechanism was too complicated to be understood without the aid of drawings, which our space will not admit: and as the patentees had the remarkable candour to acknowledge publicly the failure of their scheme, a very brief notice is all that we are called upon to give: and for this further reason; because the Messrs Heaton did not pretend to have invented any of the separate or distinct parts of their machine, but merely the general combination of the entire structure, which is a claim of scarcely any value to the most successful inventor; the identical combination being so easily destroyed. Their boiler was of the tubular kind, with a cylindrical arrangement, like James's; their steering apparatus was also like that of the same person; their engines after some other locomotionist, and so on throughout most of the parts. In the annexed condensed extract from the specification [= paragraph 4 of previous extract so not repeated here], descriptive of their mode of applying the steam power to the vehicle, they have availed themselves of the plans of the renowned progenitor of steam coaches, Trevithick.
[The 1836 text is taken from this e-book of:
Luke Hebert (civil engineer, editor of The history and progress of the steam engine, Register of arts, and Journal of patent inventions, etc). The engineer's and mechanic's encyclopaedia, comprehending practical illustrations of the machinery and processes employed in every description of manufacture of the British empire. With nearly two thousand engravings. In two volumes. Vol II. London: Thomas Kelly, 1836.
There is also an e-book of Volume 1 of the 1836 edition. The whole work covers a wide range of contemporary technologies with some thoroughness.]
[Picture removed. I know of no picture of the Heaton steam carriage. HELP PLEASE!
]
2010-04-17 20:10:26
Here is a brief technical description of W G and R Heaton's steam carriage, excerpted from:
Luke Hebert. The Engineer's and Mechanic's Encyclopaedia. Volume 2. London: Thomas Kelly, 1849.
NOTE ADDED 11 July 2010:
[I have discovered that the website linked to above contains incorrect information: [1] the steam carriage pictured is not that of the Heaton brothers, but is taken from a patent registered on 19 July 1830 by Messrs Rawe and Boase; [2] the text is corrupt. To put things right, I quote below (my emphasis) the Heaton text from the first edition (1836) of the work previously quoted, followed by the correct text from the 1849 edition. The 1836 text is fascinating in that it was written much closer in time to the events described.]
1836 Text:
Messrs W G and R Heaton of Birmingham have built several steam carriages which have operated with various degrees of success in their own neighbourhood. Their patent is dated 5 October 1830. The complicated nature of the machinery exhibited, in the specification of this patent, renders it quite impossible to make it fully understood without a series of drawings, and a detailed description, for which we cannot find room in this article. We shall therefore confine ourselves to the methods which the patentees adopt to accomplish the object they have in view: that of guidance of a locomotive carriage, and the management of the steam apparatus, that the power and speed may be accommodated to the nature of the road, the quantity of the load, etc.
For the purpose of steering the carriage, a vertical spindle is placed at some distance before the axle of the front wheels, and on its lower end a small drum is fixed. Around this drum is coiled a chain with its middle fixed upon the drum, and its ends made secure to the front axle at a considerable distance from the middle, so that the chain and axle may form a triangle with the drum, situated at the angle opposite the longest side. The other end of the vertical spindle is connected with a frame situated in front of the coachman's, or rather steersman's seat; and here is fixed upon the spindle a horizontal bevelled-toothed wheel. Over this wheel an axis extends, terminating in two crank handles proceeding from the axes in different directions, so that one will be down when the other is up; and upon this axle is fixed another bevelled-toothed wheel taking into the first. Now it is evident when these wheels are turned in one direction the right-hand fore wheel of the carriage will be advanced , and the coach will be turned towards the left, while if they turned in the other direction, the left-hand wheel will be advanced, and the carriage will be turned towards the right. This plan of steering will be immediately recognised by our readers as the same with that adopted by Mr James.
The driving wheels, or those to which the power of the engines is to be applied, are connected with the axle by means of a pair of ratchets furnished with a double set of ratchet teeth and a reversing pawl. By this contrivance one wheel can be advanced or backed while the other is stationary, or moving in a contrary direction; an arrangement which becomes necessary in the act of turning and backing. The means of acting upon the reversing pawl is brought within the reach of the steersman by means of a set of connecting rods and lever.
Motion is communicated to the driving wheels by a double set of spur wheel gear, arranged to give different powers or velocities, by having both a large and a small wheel fixed on the driving as well as the driven axis. By shifting the large wheel on the driving axis into gear with the small wheel on the driven axis, speed is obtained; and by shifting their relative position till the small wheel on the driving axis comes into gear with the large wheel on the driven axis, power is obtained at the expense of speed. These two axes are kept at the same distance from each other by means of connecting rods, notwithstanding the relative position may be changed by the motion of the carriage on rough roads.
These patentees do not claim novelty in any one of their arrangements in a detached form, but only the combination of the whole, as they have described them in their specification. A principal merit of the arrangement seems to be, that all the adjustments are brought within reach of the man having the guidance of the carriage.
1849 Text:
Messrs W G and R Heaton of Birmingham built several steam carriages under a patent-right dated 1830; but their mechanism was too complicated to be understood without the aid of drawings, which our space will not admit: and as the patentees had the remarkable candour to acknowledge publicly the failure of their scheme, a very brief notice is all that we are called upon to give: and for this further reason; because the Messrs Heaton did not pretend to have invented any of the separate or distinct parts of their machine, but merely the general combination of the entire structure, which is a claim of scarcely any value to the most successful inventor; the identical combination being so easily destroyed. Their boiler was of the tubular kind, with a cylindrical arrangement, like James's; their steering apparatus was also like that of the same person; their engines after some other locomotionist, and so on throughout most of the parts. In the annexed condensed extract from the specification [= paragraph 4 of previous extract so not repeated here], descriptive of their mode of applying the steam power to the vehicle, they have availed themselves of the plans of the renowned progenitor of steam coaches, Trevithick.
[The 1836 text is taken from this e-book of:
Luke Hebert (civil engineer, editor of The history and progress of the steam engine, Register of arts, and Journal of patent inventions, etc). The engineer's and mechanic's encyclopaedia, comprehending practical illustrations of the machinery and processes employed in every description of manufacture of the British empire. With nearly two thousand engravings. In two volumes. Vol II. London: Thomas Kelly, 1836.
There is also an e-book of Volume 1 of the 1836 edition. The whole work covers a wide range of contemporary technologies with some thoroughness.]
[Picture removed. I know of no picture of the Heaton steam carriage. HELP PLEASE!
]
Last edited:
Peter Walker
gone but not forgotten
Thylacine,
It is certainly a pity that Alec Jenson's 'History of Road Transport in Birmingham' never got beyond Volume 1, ending abruptly in the 1880s. It isn't a very readable book, but it does contain the result of his lifelong study of the subject in 1978. Unfortunately the presentation is confusing and sometimes contradictory (as the 'records' sometimes are of course). It has about 180 pages, A4 format, with 13 illustrations, one tramcar drawing and six specially drawn maps.
He also gave an evening lecture on the subject in 1958, in a fascinating series at the University in Edmund Street on Birmingham's transport history. Other speakers included Pat Whitehouse, Charles E Lee, C R Clinker LTC Rolt, I believe, and others. I suspect that the course was a one-off for the transport buffs, which either didn't pay its way or was frowned upon as being too detailed and anorak-style for academics.
Peter
It is certainly a pity that Alec Jenson's 'History of Road Transport in Birmingham' never got beyond Volume 1, ending abruptly in the 1880s. It isn't a very readable book, but it does contain the result of his lifelong study of the subject in 1978. Unfortunately the presentation is confusing and sometimes contradictory (as the 'records' sometimes are of course). It has about 180 pages, A4 format, with 13 illustrations, one tramcar drawing and six specially drawn maps.
He also gave an evening lecture on the subject in 1958, in a fascinating series at the University in Edmund Street on Birmingham's transport history. Other speakers included Pat Whitehouse, Charles E Lee, C R Clinker LTC Rolt, I believe, and others. I suspect that the course was a one-off for the transport buffs, which either didn't pay its way or was frowned upon as being too detailed and anorak-style for academics.
Peter
Pigots 1841 directory gives a slightly different address for civil engineer Church (either 95 or 98 High St Bordesley, depending on whether you look at the list of names or occupations !) . Wrightsons 1833 directory lists a Dr church at Green Lane , while , later (1849) there is a William Church, playing card manufacturer (as Church & Lewis) at 132 Bradford St , where his home also was.
Mike
Mike