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Midland Red Early Days

The caption on page 53 says "Castle Hill, Dudley" not Bromsgrove!?!?
Sorry, aberration on my part, trying to hurry. Yes Dudley - tram tracks in the background - never any in Bromsgrove!
No, I didn't meet the artist.

The site of Marstons Bradford St factory is now lost under the extention to Barford Street, and the pub on the corner of the two roads - it used to be the Mercat Cross when I worked at Digbeth, but I bet it's something else now.
 
Thanks Gentlemen. Your research and "local knowledge" are invaluable. I'll revamp my Marston post (#235) to include the latest information. Was the Mercat Cross a good pub Lloyd?
 
Mike, your research has considerably expanded the Marston story (in time and space).

I've re-checked my 1858 data (which is from Dix). Here it is verbatim:

Alphabetical list:

Hunter John Marston, carriage mnfr; h, Reservoir rd
Marston Jno. & Co., carriage builders, 23 Bradford St; h, Reservoir rd

Trade list (Coach Builders):

Marston John and Co., 24, Bradford st

Street list:

Bradford Street, Smithfield.
21 Marston J. & Co.

Brasshouse Passage, 6, Broad Street, Islington.
5 Marston John.

Reservoir Road, 146, Ladywood Road.
22 Marston John

What does "Jno" mean (we see it a lot in the directories)? I always thought it was "junior"?!?! The short-term intrusion of the name Hunter (1855-1858) is a bit of a mystery.
 
Mike,

Sorry to be a bother, but the birthplaces of John Marston's wife (Mary A) and children (Clara F, Charles L, Laura E, Julia L) at "The Elms" (Castle Bromwich) in census 1871 would be useful.
 
Sorry , but tend to forget when they are all Brum. All the inhabitants were warwickshire, and all the family were birmingham
 
The London Gazette tells the sad tale of the demise of the long-lived Marston coach-building business: :(

On 31 Oct 1935 an extraordinary general meeting of John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd (registered office 21 Bradford St, Birmingham) resolved to wind up the company voluntarily. The liquidators appointed were: Charles Beale Marston ("Hill House", Leckhampton Hill, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire) chairman; Frederick Anthony Roberts ("Chartville", Mansel Rd, Small Heath, Birmingham) secretary and general manager (presumably of Marston's). The winding up was completed at the last meeting of the company on 27 November 1940.
 
By this time Marston's were preparing for their own funeral! :rolleyes:

[FONT=&quot]3 Jul 1928. Commercial Motor advertisement:

"Distinctive ... coachwork for any chassis. Double-purpose saloons and hearses any design. Cash or terms. John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd. 21-27 Bradford St, Birmingham." [Picture of hearse.]


[/FONT]
 
[FONT=&quot]1911 (approximately). A 24-page "Motor Bodies" sales brochure of John Marston's Carriage Works Ltd was issued (three-colour board cover, with eight illustrations of cars with different bodies, a photograph of a car awaiting its body and a history of the works with testimonials). A copy was sold (together with a W Parkyn & Sons Ltd brochure) by Charles Leski Auctions Pty Ltd (Hawthorne East, Victoria, Australia) on 27 Jul 2003 for Au$120. [I would like to see that! :)]

[/FONT]
 
2010-04-14 16:18:46

First Midland Red Bus in Henley-in-Arden 1914.

Here is a picture of the first Midland Red bus to arrive in the lovely Warwickshire village of Henley-in-Arden on 6 Jun 1914. The brand-new bus was pioneering the Birmingham – Henley-in-Arden – Stratford-upon-Avon service. Look at the empty street! The two lads in flat caps in the horse-drawn cart are getting their first glimpse of the future of public transport!

The bus is one of the first batch
of 30 Tilling-Stevens TS3s, which joined the Midland Red fleet in 1914. It is fleet number A42 (registered OA4571 with chassis number 182) and carried a Thomas Tilling B29F body (BB71). The chassis was rebodied with BB117 (Brush B29F) in 1919 and with BB108 (Brush B29F) in 1923. It was broken up or sold in 1927. [These details are dependent on my correct reading of the registration number in the rear window. Can you make it out Lloyd?]

Does anyone know the number of the Birmingham – Henley – Stratford service?
 
2010-04-14 16:35:18

Open-Top Double-Deckers in Nuneaton 1920s.

And here are two pictures of a Tilling-Stevens FS bus with Midland Red KO22/29F body: picture1; picture2. It is seen in Coventry Road, Nuneaton, at some time in the period 1922-1929. I couldn't discern the registration this time.

On the left in the second picture a man is standing under a diamond-shaped sign. Does anyone know what the sign is for?

[I'm not certain that these two pictures are of the same bus. The advertisement for ILO oil is seen in both pictures, but this was a common sight on the front of the FSs.]
 
The diamond shaped sign was of cast iron and a carried a weight prohibition warning to drivers of heavy wagons and 'locomotives' i.e. steamrollers and traction engines. Full size replicas used to be on sale at the Ironbridge Gorge Foundry Museum.

By the 1940's and through to the 1970's the Midland Red Birmingham to Sratford-upon-Avon sevice was numbered 150 (although may have been different in earlier years). It was jointly operated with Stratford Blue buses until the Midland Red absorbtion of that company during the National Bus Company era at which time the service was extended to Oxford through amalgamation with the former Stratford Blue/City of Oxford Motor Services' Stratford - Oxford service 44 to become the X50. Short workings between Birmingham and Stratford showed X20 which is still shown by Johnson's Buses of Henley in Arden who now operate the service. The X50 no longer operates.
 
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Thanks for the explanation of the sign, Mike. I guess the FS came in under the maximum weight! Do you know of any pictures showing the text?

The Birmingham - Stratford service number 150 would probably have applied since that last major re-numbering on 11 Feb 1928. Earlier re-numberings occurred on 16 May 1925 and 5 Oct 1914 (when Birmingham Corporation took over services in the city). Service numbers were originally introduced in Oct 1913. For example, Smethwick - Oldbury started off as service 8, was renumbered to 28 on 5 Oct 1914, was renumbered to something in the range 101-210 in 1925, and finally to something in the range 100-287 in 1928. You probably know the final number, Mike. The well-known 144 (Birmingham - Malvern) was 125 before 1928, and 25 before 1925; it started on 29 Aug 1914 (jointly with Worcestershire Motor Transport Co Ltd).

It is remarkable that the service numbering system (ie allocation of ranges of numbers to different regions) had more or less settled down by 1928. Only minor changes occurred after that. There's a picture of a Tilling-Stevens FS on service 144 (must be 1928-1929) on the front paste-down endpaper of Midland Red Volume 1.

I seem to remember travelling on the 150 to Stratford in the early 1960s on a "Day Anywhere Ticket" outing!
 
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Adam Harber's excellent MidlandRed.net website has a picture here (https://midlandred.net/pix/tilling/oa4568/01.shtml) of 1914 Tilling-Stevens TS3 fleet number A39 (reg OA4568) on service 25 (Birmingham - Bromsgrove as it was then) in about 1915 (the conductress dates the picture to World War 1).

MidlandRed.net has a small but well-researched section on service numbers here (https://midlandred.net/service/index.shtml). The account of service 25/125/144 is particularly good.
 
I think this is similar to the sign you mean. This was taken at a bridge on the old ,then (and now) lifted Coalport line in 1972
Mike

12_reducedA.jpg
 
2010-04-15 04:16:19

History of the Word "Charabanc".

The word "charabanc" was adopted into English from the French "char-à-bancs" or "char à bancs" (the hyphens appear to be optional). The literal meaning is "wagon with benches", and in 1845 it is recorded as meaning "light two- or four-wheeled vehicle with benches". The first part ("char") is a very old word for a wheeled vehicle of high status, to which our words "car" and "chariot" are related. The form "char-à-bancs" is singular; the plural form is "chars-à-bancs".

When the word first came into English, the French form (with slight variations) was used. This is illustrated by the following quotations:

1816 (Byron's Journal): "One of the country carriages (a char-à-banc)."
1820 (Ebell and Wall's Travellers Guide to Switzerland): "The char-à-banc is a wagon provided with a long covered bench, on which you may either lie down or sit sideways, as in our long Bath coaches."

Before very long the word was anglicized:

1826 (Joseph Moyle Sherer's Notes and Reflections During a Ramble in Germany): "On my arrival at Como I immediately took a charabanc."

By 1887 Birmingham coach-builders John Marston & Co were advertising their "new patent char-au-banc omnibus" (trying to out-French the French and getting it wrong!).

The French form of the word continued to be used, occasionally in the strictly correct form (with "bancs"):

1909 (Daily Telegraph): "A char-à-bancs, containing eighteen passengers, being overturned."

The word was shortened to "sharry" (first recorded 1923), "chara" (1928), "charry" (1928) and "sharra" or "sharrer" (1934). The following quotation is interesting:

1977 (Listener): "And charabanc: it went from bang to bong and back again to bang ... 'Meanwhile,' says Mr Ferris, 'the nation went about its business and called it either a coach or a sharra'."

By the 1930s the traditional open motor charabanc was rapidly disappearing, to be replaced by the enclosed motor coach. However, the new coach was still called a charabanc for many years.

The word is now marked in dictionaries as "archaic" or "dated", if it occurs at all. The most recent Australian dictionary that I have looked at (2004) doesn't contain "charabanc" (or any of its variants).

Sources:

F J M Noël and C P Chapsal. Nouveau Dictionnaire de la Langue Française. Tenth edition. Paris: Maire-Nyon, 1845.
J A Simpson and E S C Weiner (editors). The Oxford English Dictionary. Second edition. Oxford: The Clarendon Press, 1989.
Lesley Brown (editor). The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford: The Clarendon Press, 1993.
Robert Allen (editor). The New Penguin English Dictionary. London: Penguin, 2000.
Bruce Moore (editor). The Australian Concise Oxford Dictionary. Fourth edition. South Melbourne: Oxford University Press, 2004.

To relieve the verbiage, here are two pictures (set in
Coventry and Cornwall respectively) reminding us that the charabanc pre-dates the motor era:
 
The text on the sign pictured in mikejee's post (#255) is fascinating:

"NOTICE. This BRIDGE is insufficient to carry a HEAVY MOTOR CAR the Registered Axle Weight of which exceeds [FIVE] TONS or the Registered Axle Weight of the several axles of which exceed in the aggregate FIVE TONS or a Heavy Motor Car drawing a TRAILER if the Registered Axle Weights of the Heavy Motor Car and the TRAILER Exceed in the aggregate FIVE TONS. North Stafford Railway. Stone Station."


They had quite a way with words in those days! Of course the vehicles were travelling so slowly that drivers had plenty of time to read the story.

I wonder what was the weight of a Tilling-Stevens FS double-decker loaded with passengers.
 
2010-04-15 08:23:21

Early Smethwick Registration?

Here is another pretty unremarkable charabanc picture (I like the Shell petrol pump though!). What is remarkable is the motor car partially visible behind the chara. As the caption says: "An American-built Republic can just be spotted. The registration appears to be HA8." The website owner (Alan O Watkins) continues: "This picture is believed to have been taken in Cheltenham, but the Republic appears to have been registered HA8. Both the A and the 8 are certain. There may be other registration numerals."

If this car is indeed registered HA8, then it is the eighth vehicle registered at Smethwick. The "HA" registration was of course the "trademark" of Midland Red buses between 1922 (Daimler Y registered HA1655) and 1974 (Ford R1014 registered PHA388M). The earliest "HA" registration associated with Midland Red (that I am aware of) is HA1136 (1921 Morris Cowley 12 hp two-seater motor car in the ancillary fleet).

When was HA8 issued? The Republic pictured doesn’t seem old enough somehow.
 
2010-04-15 13:22:10

Midland Red Commercial Motor Hire Department 1914.

On the back free endpaper in Midland Red Volume1, a notice is reproduced advertising the Midland Red "Commercial Motor Hire Department". The address given is Tennant Street, which proves that the notice was published before 4 October 1914 (when the Tennant Street premises passed to Birmingham Corporation). The wording of the notice makes it clear that the Commercial Motor Hire Department is what we have elsewhere on this thread called the Commercial Goods (or Motor) Services Department. The only vehicles that can possibly have been available for this purpose as early as 1914 are three Napier 30 cwt lorries with box van bodies (registered OA6001-6003), and seven Tilling-Stevens TTA2 lorries with Midland Red flat lorry or box van bodies (registered O9930-9936). The TTA2s were new in 1913 as double-deck buses. They are recorded by Hardy as "converted to lorries circa 1915", but I believe they were converted quite early in 1914, otherwise there would just not have been sufficient vehicles to provide the services advertised in the notice. So the Commercial Motor Hire Department opened for business early in 1914 with the following ten vehicles:

OA6001 Napier 30 cwt (1417) with body B1 (unknown box van); "Winter's Stores" livery; to War Department c Sep 1914.
OA6002 Napier 30 cwt (1241) with body B2 (unknown box van); "Dunlop" livery; sold 1916.
OA6003 Napier 30 cwt (1494) with body B3 (unknown box van); "Dunlop" livery; to War Department c Sep 1914.
O9930 Tilling-Stevens TTA2 (?) with body B8 (Midland Red box van); OE7313 1921; broken up 1922.
O9931 Tilling-Stevens TTA2 (29) with body B9 (Midland Red box van); S4444 1918; OA7101 1921; AC31 1921; broken up 1922.
O9932 Tilling-Stevens TTA2 (33) with body B4 (Midland Red flat lorry); O9934 1922; broken up 1923.
O9933 Tilling-Stevens TTA2 (?) with body B5 (Midland Red flat lorry); broken up 1919.
O9934 Tilling-Stevens TTA2 (36) with body B6 (Midland Red flat lorry); broken up 1922.
O9935 Tilling-Stevens TTA2 (39) with body B7 (Midland Red flat lorry); broken up 1922.
O9936 Tilling-Stevens TTA2 (40) with body B10 (Midland Red flat lorry); OA7101 1921; to Colne CT (registered in the rangeTB2524-2526) 1921.

The assignment of bodies to chassis is not accurately known, so the above allocations are quite tentative. Hardy (BMMO Volume 1) states that B1-3 were "probably on Napier OA6001-6003" and that B4-10 were "probably on Tilling ex-buses O99xx". He also states that B1-3 and B8-9 are box vans and that B4-7 and B10 are flat lorries, B4-10 being made by Midland Red. Midland Red Volume 2 (page 196 lower right) has a picture probably of O9931 (as AC31) in 1922 with a box van body. The liveries recorded are those of the firms to which the vehicles were hired on contract. Unless there is other evidence unknown to me, it is impossible to be more specific.

The "fact" that the chassis of O9936 was sold to Colne Corporation Transport in 1921 is deduced from two "facts": [1] Peter Gould's Colne CT fleet list records that Tilling-Stevens TTA2s registered TB2524-2526 (the first three buses in the Colne fleet) were "ex-BMMO (chassis only, new 1913)". [2] Hardy's Midland Red fleet list states that O9936, O9938 and OA343 were "broken up" in 1921 (the only TTA2s disposed of in that year). If the dates are correct, it is difficult to say which other Midland Red TTA2s could possibly have gone to Colne. We know that the chassis numbers of these three were 40, 35 and 50 respectively, but unfortunately Peter Gould doesn't give the chassis numbers of the Colne buses.

[Lloyd, I know you have studied this subject and have posted some notes earlier (#92 page 3). We may not agree 100%, but considering the paucity of evidence, perhaps we'll have to agree to differ. As always I welcome your corrections, additions and comments. It is remarkable how the "Commercial Motor Hire Department" notice focuses the mind!]
 
I've just had a thought about my previous post. The Birmingham Agreement was signed on 14 Feb 1914 but could not take effect until Birmingham Corporation attained the statutory power to operate buses. So Midland Red had several months to contemplate their future. The Commercial Motor Hire Department might have been set up because they knew they were going to lose buses and services to Birmingham. Converting some of their remaining buses to lorries and hiring them out makes perfectly good business sense under the circumstances. :rolleyes:
 
I have just noticed that I have "graduated" from apprentice to journeyman Brummie. I would like to thank my "masters" on this Forum (especially Lloyd) for making it such an enjoyable and mind-expanding experience. :cool:
 
Thylacine, you don't have to thank us, we have to thank you for giving us the vast amount of research you are doing on early Midland Red history.
Peter
 
Not wishing to go off thread for too long but it appears that the canal bridge diamond warning signs may have been updated and reworded by railway companies (who bought out many canals) to reflect increasing use by motor vehicles. I remember in my younger days reading diamond signs on some Kennet and Avon Canal bridges addressed to drivers of 'locomotives' which puzzled me at the time as I couldn't figure out how a railway loco could be crossing on a road bridge! Pity I never got a photo of one of those earlier notices. Mikejee beat me to it but here is a GWR example albeit with the weight plates long gone.
 
Not off thread, Mike! If a road sign appears in a Midland Red picture, then I reckon it's on thread. (More so than some of my ramblings!)

Yes, the diamond sign in the Nuneaton bus pics is a canal one. I guess the weight limit would depend on the strength of the bridge. If the FS (weight, say, 3.5 tons) was full of passengers (say 50 people at 10 stone each - they were smaller in those days!) that adds up to more than 6 tons by my calculations! So it's "goodbye bridge, hello canal".


[Don't trust my maths - it's a long time since I've worked with stones and hundredweights and tons! We've been on the 1 tonne = 1,000 kilograms system down here for quite a while.]
:rolleyes:
 
Shhhh Thylacine, we don't want any of that tonnes stuff here on the Forum or they will be round to your house with the carbolic soap!(even out in the old Empire:D)
 
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