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Martineau Street
- Thread starter Vivienne14
- Start date
Mark Hunnibell
Brummie babby
Mike
Thank you for your continued info. Apparently I do not have access to a "complete" archive of Kelly's Directories. I have 1900 and 1905 from ancestry.com... nothing in between. Is there an online source for these?
I agree with the concept that the listing in 1903 indicates the business was there in 1902. I just don't have a complete set to probe (have 1895, 1897, 1899, [1900 is available], 1905, 1908, and 1915). The "Webb's Lane" location is news to me because of the incomplete nature of the directories on ancestry.com.
The patents held by XL'ALL (and a number of others unrelated to motorcycles) were all registered to Timothy Shepherd who died at age 75 in 1937. In most patent applications he gave his residential address, but on some of them he gave these various addresses of business. By 1914, he apparently took up residence at "The Woodlands" on Wake Green Road in Moseley and apparently remained in that vicinity until he died. I don't know how it's done in the UK, but in the USA, there would ordinarily be a probate record, even in the case of a will, of the disposition of assets following death. Such a record might give a hint as to the state of the company when he died, but since it has not been 100 years since he died, those records may not be available.
With respect to the maps, I am stumbling through the interface at https://maps.nls.uk/ to try and find things, but I cannot always tell the date of the map they present. So if you have a handier reference that makes it easier to find locations, that would be great.
Mark
Thank you for your continued info. Apparently I do not have access to a "complete" archive of Kelly's Directories. I have 1900 and 1905 from ancestry.com... nothing in between. Is there an online source for these?
I agree with the concept that the listing in 1903 indicates the business was there in 1902. I just don't have a complete set to probe (have 1895, 1897, 1899, [1900 is available], 1905, 1908, and 1915). The "Webb's Lane" location is news to me because of the incomplete nature of the directories on ancestry.com.
The patents held by XL'ALL (and a number of others unrelated to motorcycles) were all registered to Timothy Shepherd who died at age 75 in 1937. In most patent applications he gave his residential address, but on some of them he gave these various addresses of business. By 1914, he apparently took up residence at "The Woodlands" on Wake Green Road in Moseley and apparently remained in that vicinity until he died. I don't know how it's done in the UK, but in the USA, there would ordinarily be a probate record, even in the case of a will, of the disposition of assets following death. Such a record might give a hint as to the state of the company when he died, but since it has not been 100 years since he died, those records may not be available.
With respect to the maps, I am stumbling through the interface at https://maps.nls.uk/ to try and find things, but I cannot always tell the date of the map they present. So if you have a handier reference that makes it easier to find locations, that would be great.
Mark
This pic is in two other threads but worth a link in this Martineau Street thread. (only visible if logged in)
from https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/old-street-pics.38737/page-194#post-535941
love this photo phil as it shows 3 forms of power used for transport...the horse..electricity and petrol...
lyn
sospiri
GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN
Mark,
You need :-
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#calendar
for probate. A copy of a Will if it exists will cost you £10. There are some directories online here:-
https://www.midlandshistoricaldata.org/
but it is by no means a complete set. You can search for free (also electoral rolls, again incomplete), but for seeing images you have to pay.
Maurice
You need :-
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#calendar
for probate. A copy of a Will if it exists will cost you £10. There are some directories online here:-
https://www.midlandshistoricaldata.org/
but it is by no means a complete set. You can search for free (also electoral rolls, again incomplete), but for seeing images you have to pay.
Maurice
Radiorails
master brummie
Mark,
Just a clarification. It is Webb Lane, no s. It runs from Highfield Road to Robin Hood Lane. The Robin Hood part is adjacent to the railroad line.
It crosses my mind that as both Highfield Road and Webb Lane are mentioned there seems to be a good chance that the factory, albeit a small one, could well have been situated at the junction of those two roads.
Noting your Ohio location I wonder if you have read the Cincinnati thread here?
Mikejee,
your map appears to show the middle part of Webb Lane. Can you look at the ends particularly the junction with Highfield Road. It does seem that in the early to mid part of the last century Webb Lane was host to a few small industries.
Just a clarification. It is Webb Lane, no s. It runs from Highfield Road to Robin Hood Lane. The Robin Hood part is adjacent to the railroad line.
It crosses my mind that as both Highfield Road and Webb Lane are mentioned there seems to be a good chance that the factory, albeit a small one, could well have been situated at the junction of those two roads.
Noting your Ohio location I wonder if you have read the Cincinnati thread here?
Mikejee,
your map appears to show the middle part of Webb Lane. Can you look at the ends particularly the junction with Highfield Road. It does seem that in the early to mid part of the last century Webb Lane was host to a few small industries.
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Alan
The only other buildings on Webb Lane are at the junction with Highland road, as can be seen from the map below, though they are rather small.
Mark
AS Maurice says, the Midland historical data site can be very useful. I believe that the Ancestry directories are from the Historical directories site of Leicester university (which can be accessed direct and without charge)
They are, however, far from complete. Some others are available to purchase either as a download or on DVD. Others ( such as the 1924 one) can only be accessed in the original book. A wider range of maps with publication dates can be had at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html. At one time you could view these completely free. Now you have to subscribe to get the highest magnification . Not sure of exact details sI have a subscription.
The only other buildings on Webb Lane are at the junction with Highland road, as can be seen from the map below, though they are rather small.
Mark
AS Maurice says, the Midland historical data site can be very useful. I believe that the Ancestry directories are from the Historical directories site of Leicester university (which can be accessed direct and without charge)
They are, however, far from complete. Some others are available to purchase either as a download or on DVD. Others ( such as the 1924 one) can only be accessed in the original book. A wider range of maps with publication dates can be had at https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html. At one time you could view these completely free. Now you have to subscribe to get the highest magnification . Not sure of exact details sI have a subscription.
Attachments
Radiorails
master brummie
This, apparently, is a photo of Highfield Road and Webb Lane - presumably where it makes a junction. I have no idea what the buildings are, but so far it is the first picture I have found.
Mark Hunnibell
Brummie babby
Wow folks!
Before I got too much further down the road, I wanted to thank all of you who provided feedback and details. As a DIRECT result of the information, resources, and links you provided here, I am much further down the road to coloring in a more complete picture of my biographical subject of interest. So... thanks... some highlights:
Mark Hunnibell
Before I got too much further down the road, I wanted to thank all of you who provided feedback and details. As a DIRECT result of the information, resources, and links you provided here, I am much further down the road to coloring in a more complete picture of my biographical subject of interest. So... thanks... some highlights:
- Radiorails (Alan) who supplied the advertising images from a Spanish web site in posts #49 and #50. I contacted the administrator of that web site. He provided me with a link back to his source on an interesting British web site, https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Eclipse_Motor_and_Cycle_Co. Grace's Guide was kind enough to include their sources for the information presented about Eclipse Motor and Cycle, two books which I have now ordered in hard copy so that I can perhaps glean additional information about this enterprise. So THANK YOU Alan!
- sospiri (Maurice) who supplied some information that I had (including the references to the show in Edinburgh and the patent searches via espacenet), but some new (to me) information from the kawiforums.com post that led to a Wikipedia page that essentially says that Eclipse Motor & Cycle was something of a pioneer in the V-Twin design of motorcycle engines with a "brand name" of XL-ALL, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-twin_engine. The source that Wikepedia lists for this is an article in a 1922 British magazine: "The Evolution of the Motor Cycle", Motor Cycle magazine, June 1st, 1922, pp700-706. I have not found any online or hard copy repository for this magazine, but will keep looking because it may give more details of interest to me.
- mikejee who posted (reposted) that excellent photo of Martineau Street, probably circa 1915 (by the way, I have discovered that the "telegraph company" across the street from where Eclipse Motor & Cycle would have been was also a rubber company that sold motorcycle tyres).
- sospiri (Maurice) who supplied links to the Probate Search web site. Although I could not find any reference to Timothy Shepherd there even though I have what I think is an accurate time of death (December 1937), I was able to search that site and find and order (yet to be delivered) the probate/will entry for the second wife of the son of Timothy Shepherd (it is actually Charles Kenilworth Shepherd, Timothy's son, who is the subject of the "biography" I am working on).
- sospiri (Maurice) who supplied links to the Midland Historical Data web site. Although it is has some fairly large data gaps, what is there is relatively easily searchable and I was able to use it to collect a number of very useful details regarding Eclipse Motor & Cycle, XL-ALL, Timothy Shepherd and his children. It seems that Timothy Shepherd, who I presume owned Eclipse Motor & Cycle/XL-ALL, around 1920/1 sold what was left of it (by then it seems just a motorcycle saddle maker), to John Leckie & Co. LTD, whereupon the XL-ALL brand related to motorcycles disappeared. It does appear that Timothy's son, Charles, remained at Webb's Lane in Hall Green for a few years listed as an engineer, but no longer associated with XL-ALL.
Mark Hunnibell
sospiri
GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN
Mark,
Have you enquired of the British Library Newspaper Archive about the Motorcycle magazine to see if they have a hard copy? Given that these magazines were printed by the thousand there's bound to be several about somewhere. If they have a copy, they will scan, at a price, a one-off. Also, regularly keep your eyes on eBay.co.uk, and also other auction sites such as
https://www.delcampe.co.uk/en_GB/collectables/
I've done well at Delcampe, finding 1920s invoices, etc, from small Birmingham companies. Also look in the paper ephemera sections of postcard fairs. Also the Australian and New Zealand archive sites have excellent searchable indexes and are very helpful by email.
https://archives.govt.nz/
https://www.naa.gov.au/
It really is a case of persistence! You'd be surprised at what turns up thousands of miles away. Good hunting.
Maurice
Have you enquired of the British Library Newspaper Archive about the Motorcycle magazine to see if they have a hard copy? Given that these magazines were printed by the thousand there's bound to be several about somewhere. If they have a copy, they will scan, at a price, a one-off. Also, regularly keep your eyes on eBay.co.uk, and also other auction sites such as
https://www.delcampe.co.uk/en_GB/collectables/
I've done well at Delcampe, finding 1920s invoices, etc, from small Birmingham companies. Also look in the paper ephemera sections of postcard fairs. Also the Australian and New Zealand archive sites have excellent searchable indexes and are very helpful by email.
https://archives.govt.nz/
https://www.naa.gov.au/
It really is a case of persistence! You'd be surprised at what turns up thousands of miles away. Good hunting.
Maurice
oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
I put this early 1930s pic in the Electric Trams thread but it's worth a link from here for anyone interested in Martineau Street.
from ... https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/electric-trams.28642/page-20#post-603642
from ... https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/electric-trams.28642/page-20#post-603642
Radiorails
master brummie
Car 843 was usually the one chosen by tramcar afficionados for tram system tours. It was the last tram built for the Corporation and was unique, It still carries the pre 1946 style numerals The car was based at Cotteridge and was a regular on the 36 Cotteridge route.
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Radiorails
master brummie
.................and some people say he skipped to South America
adap2it
master brummie
Yes, him too...
Dave A
#6 tram at Martineau Street, with the junction of Corporation Street. Sorry no date for the image. This seems to have been a popular spot for photographing trams. Viv.
Bob Davis
Bob Davis
I have this one in one of my books on B'ham trams. The bus in the background says it is post war (and from the window down struts, probably a GOE which were the first post war buses and I would hazard a guess that the white notices on the windows are advising of the impending closure of the route, which was in 1949 and the GOEs 1481 to 1630 started deliveries in 1947. I will look tonight to see if I can find it.
Bob
mw0njm.
A Brummie Dude
ot i know.
i worked there in 1970,it was the electricar co.then it changed names to stackertruck. then to clarke equipment,then they moved.from webb lane. some Michigan plant hire bought them. now called CLARK Material Handling Company.
A tram in Martineau Street, no date but possibly late 1930s or 1940’s ? Not sure. Viv.
An interesting and very informative trade card for C H Bayliss & Co, shop fitters based on Martineau Street in 1894. The shop front shown in the details must have been their showroom and offices at #89, itself demonstrating the most up to date retail premises design. Occasionally that style of shop front still exists in various places. The door is recessed into the display windows, allowing more display space and more viewing area for customers (also out of any unpleasant weather).
The examples of a hosiery shop interior and a chemists shop interior are nice examples of interior design of the time too.
I like that they specialise in “Grocers and Butter Men”.
Viv.
The examples of a hosiery shop interior and a chemists shop interior are nice examples of interior design of the time too.
I like that they specialise in “Grocers and Butter Men”.
Viv.
