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Fox and Grapes - Digbeth

ell i keep trying to tell people who wrongly assume buildings that have grade listed status are safe...absolutely not... i never take any notice of it..forgot to ask while i was up there this morning but i am assuming that the old cobbles of freeman st will also go in due course.. as said i will post a couple of photos from this morning but for now here are my 2 prized bricks..

lyn

bricks from fox and grapes 2.jpg bricks from fox and grapes.jpg
 
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What about those buildings that were taken down brick by brick and rebuilt at the Black Country Living Museum, or that place near Bromsgrove? Guess the fire ruined that option. Hopefully they saved something to go to the Birmingham Museum Collection Centre (was walking back from my 2nd visit there).
 
always said it ell.. the.black country museum which is as we speak ear marking yet more buildings to put in their museum should over the years make the powers that be of this city hang their heads in shame

lyn
 
yes mike they look hand made to me although i am no expert on bricks... i just wanted a couple:D
 
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as promised a few photos taken near the end of demolision sunday morning 16th of sept 2018

demo of fox and grapes 2.jpg demo of fox and grapes 3.jpg demo of fox and grapes 4.jpg demo of fox and grapes 6.jpg demo of fox and grapes 8.jpg demo of fox and grapes 14.jpg demo of fox and grapes 15.jpg demo of fox and grapes 16.jpg
 
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Upsetting. Maybe the archeo dig will throw up some nice surprises - let’s keep an eye on this as we know what happened to the old pavement in Victoria Sq. Looking to our photographer members to record anything of interest. Viv.

PS it’s always difficult to “Like” scenes such as the recent photos. Maybe we could change the “Like” to “Appeciated”
 
viv i think that is a very good idea because i certainly do not like posting photos like this...i only do it for the sake of history but the word appreciated could cover all posts made really:)
 
Prof Chinn wrote this for the Birmingham Mail about the F&G some time ago

The first Directory of Birmingham was published by Sketchley and Adams in 1770 and it recorded a number of manufacturers: James Wright, James, a plater; Thomas Friday, a platina (platinum) button maker; Samuel Heeley, a brassfounder and factor; Thomas Aston, a button maker and factor; Thomas Piddock, a plater, silverer, ironmonger and coffin nail maker; Boyce and Radcliffe, brassfounders and ironmongers; and William Parkes, a waiter maker.

This list also included William Redding, a gilder operating from number 16. This was on the corner with Park Street and would become the Fox and Grapes.

By Wrightson’s Directory of 1815, Freeman Street continued to be a centre of small-scale businesses but now one of them was that of James Grove, who was a victualler and maltster. As the term victualler usually referred to innkeepers, it may well be that he operated from number 16.

Grove was mentioned again in Wrightson’s Directory for 1823; then, six years later a James Burton was given as a victualler in the street. This time a number was included – and it was 16.

Thus it can be stated that a public house has been on the site of the Fox and Grapes since at least 1829 and probably from at least 1815.


So your bricks Lyn could be at least early 1800s. Viv.
 
thanks viv that is very interesting information and worth remembering..not being an expert i have asked mike hodder to date the bricks for me...will let you know what he says but they do look quite old to me...

lyn
 
Astoness said:
viv i think that is a very good idea because i certainly do not like posting photos like this...i only do it for the sake of history but the word appreciated could cover all posts made really:)
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I agree but I tell myself it means "I like the fact someone has posted not always like what it is" - appreciate would be better if Warren can change it.
 
it was only john knight that was told by a worker on sat of possible asbestos ive seen nothing about that in the public domain..my thoughts are that they were never really sure what problems demolishing this building could cause including a road colapse so they covered a few things..could not have posed that many problems

lyn
 
Maybe it was a knee jerk comment. I gathered from my visit to Curzon St that the extent of the asbestos there was a bit of a surprise, as they had not realised how unoriginal much of the interior was
 
yes dave i did some 5 years ago but i got rid of them...... back then it was to be platform 6 on or near the fox and grapes..you maybe able to get to see the plans online somewhere dave

lyn
 
Dave M said:
Looks like it stops just short of Freeman St
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thanks dave and that is why it was suggested by HS2 bosses at the meetings that it could be possible to retain the pub within the station but as we all know it was not to be

lyn
 
Reading these postings, I have to say that the Fox and Grapes was unknown to me and that it was just another public house, no longer used because of the fall off of trade etc,etc. but I have been stunned by the passion, the sadness and the anger that the demolition of an old building has brought to those who knew the pub. The problem lies in the fact that it has been destroyed to make way for a white elephant, a costly and unnecessary railway line that will probably serve very little purpose and be very pricey to use. All of this at a time when there is a North - South divide over railway funding and a desperate need for improvements to existing railways. I was unaware that listed buildings could still be disposed of if the authorities gave the OK. I do not know how the Midlands fares in the arguments over railways, fares, driver only operation, reopening of old lines etc, but reading this and other forums, it would seem that the desire to spend ratepayers and taxpayers money on vanity projects is burgeoning and the past is for the sentimentalists and the elderly. It would be very interesting to see the RAMMS (Risk assessments and method statements for the demolition to see if Asbestos and possible cellars were mentioned. The photos have been liked, but probably appreciated is a far better word and Lyn you are a brick.
Bob
 
bob i cant tell you how much your post means to me and i have to admit that although we have known for about 4 years that the fox and grapes would not survive yesterdays demolition hit myself and other people hard..it has gone now and there is no more to be done except to look forward to finding out what the excavations of the area will turn up...lots of history i hope because now i am picking myself up i fully intend to black my nose as often as time permits and hopefully other members will join in...most likely be starting a brand new thread (or someone will) when the archeaologists get to work:) thank you bob i agree with all you have said..oh warren is looking into changing the word from like to appreciated but thinks it may not be possible

lyn
 
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just had this message back from mike hodder(ex bcc archeaologist) in reply to the photo i sent him of my bricks asking if he could date them for me..he also sent me some information that some of you may find of interest and may want to note in your diary

Hi Lyn

I saw it yesterday as well as I was on my way to a meeting in Fazeley St. What a tragedy to lose one of the oldest buildings in this part of Birmingham. The excavation of the Park Street burial ground will take quite a long time and there are also archaeological remains under the car park between the F and G and Moor Street which I assume will be excavated by HS2 Ltd.

I think these bricks are 18th century and part of the original building but it’s a bit difficult to tell from the photo.

One of HS2’s archaeologists is giving a talk at the Birmingham and Warwickshire Archaeological Society on 8 January 2019 at 1pm at the Birmingham and Midland Institute in Margaret Street. It seems a long way ahead but they should have a lot to talk about by then. It’s free and you don’t need to book in advance. It would be good if you can make it.

And I will see you at the Gunmakers next month!

Mike
 
same here mike..if we want to find out properly how things are progressing with the excavations etc then getting it from the horses mouth is the best way and of course there will be question time:)good opportunity
 
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Bob Davis said:
The problem lies in the fact that it has been destroyed to make way for a white elephant, a costly and unnecessary railway line that will probably serve very little purpose and be very pricey to use.
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Are you clairvoyant?

How do you know it will be a white elephant, it has not been built yet.

How do we know it will be unnecessary, nobody can use it yet so we have no idea of passenger numbers.

How do you know it will be pricey to use, no fare details have been published yet.

You also say it is a "vanity project". It was first announced by Gordon Brown and Labour, and has been endorsed by all the parties in power since (Coalition and later Conservatives). If it had been "just" a vanity project then someone would have cancelled it by now.

What is the alternative, keep building more motorways?

I happened to go in to Birmingham by train early (about 7:30am) on a Monday a couple a weeks ago. I got on at Solihull but the train had already stopped at a number of stations before it got to Solihull.

The train was PACKED. I could not get a seat. I was amazed at how many people were travelling from way down South to come to Birmingham, most I guess to get to work.

A train that can go from Central London (Euston) and get to Birmingham in 50 minutes (and then on to the North of England) will be a godsend for many workers, and will hopefully be an alternative to them driving in their car on motorways.

But note it is not JUST about speed. It is also about getting trains OFF the existing West Coast main line to free up space so they can add more trains to other cities. I remember a couple of years ago Virgin wanted to add a train from Shrewsbury to New St station but there was not just the capacity on the line or the stations (New St station is "full").

Other countries have thousands of miles of High Speed train lines. Spain has 3100km of high speed line (with 1800km under construction). France has 3220km and Germany 3038km. Even Sweden has 1706km. The UK has 1377km with 230km under construction so we are a long way behind many other European countries.

In years to come, as petrol cars become banned in many city centres, and driving is seen as "anti social", train travel will become more and more the "norm". Even Birmingham is now considering a congestion charge, as I am sure are other major cities in the UK.

Yes it is a shame when a historic building is knocked down, but sadly this pub had not been protected and was almost allowed to become derilict so knocking it down was almost the only solution.

But remember if Chamberlain had not knocked down buildings we would not have Corporation St, New St, the Council House, the Town Hall, all of which the city is proud off.
 
guilbert53 said:
Are you clairvoyant?

How do you know it will be a white elephant, it has not been built yet.

How do we know it will be unnecessary, nobody can use it yet so we have no idea of passenger numbers.

How do you know it will be pricey to use, no fare details have been published yet.

You also say it is a "vanity project". It was first announced by Gordon Brown and Labour, and has been endorsed by all the parties in power since (Coalition and later Conservatives). If it had been "just" a vanity project then someone would have cancelled it by now.

What is the alternative, keep building more motorways?

I happened to go in to Birmingham by train early (about 7:30am) on a Monday a couple a weeks ago. I got on at Solihull but the train had already stopped at a number of stations before it got to Solihull.

The train was PACKED. I could not get a seat. I was amazed at how many people were travelling from way down South to come to Birmingham, most I guess to get to work.

A train that can go from Central London (Euston) and get to Birmingham in 50 minutes (and then on to the North of England) will be a godsend for many workers, and will hopefully be an alternative to them driving in their car on motorways.

But note it is not JUST about speed. It is also about getting trains OFF the existing West Coast main line to free up space so they can add more trains to other cities. I remember a couple of years ago Virgin wanted to add a train from Shrewsbury to New St station but there was not just the capacity on the line or the stations (New St station is "full").

Other countries have thousands of miles of High Speed train lines. Spain has 3100km of high speed line (with 1800km under construction). France has 3220km and Germany 3038km. Even Sweden has 1706km. The UK has 1377km with 230km under construction so we are a long way behind many other European countries.

In years to come, as petrol cars become banned in many city centres, and driving is seen as "anti social", train travel will become more and more the "norm". Even Birmingham is now considering a congestion charge, as I am sure are other major cities in the UK.

Yes it is a shame when a historic building is knocked down, but sadly this pub had not been protected and was almost allowed to become derilict so knocking it down was almost the only solution.

But remember if Chamberlain had not knocked down buildings we would not have Corporation St, New St, the Council House, the Town Hall, all of which the city is proud off.
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I understand where you are coming from and I actually agree with you and understand the reasons for your comments, I write as someone who has seen the decimation of a once excellent rail system, that was neglected for years and as someone who lives on one of the prettiest rail trips in England, down the Taw Valley, but in ancient trains with GWR apologising for poor service but not doing anything about it. Exeter to Birmingham by rail is a nightmare journey most often in an overcrowded Voyager. As an old idiot, who probably will not see HS2, I question how it will benefit anyone, although I concede that the points you make in its favour are extremely relevant.

Bob
 
This is why it's a white Elephant...…….

"HS2 paid 318 officials at least £100,000 in wages and perks last year
The taxpayer-owned company also spent more than £600million on consultants
The scale of pay has fuelled concerns over the mounting costs of the rail project."

This is before one foot of track as been laid.
 
I think it’s time to accept, what’s done is done folks.

Hopefully we can look forward to some “finds” as per Lyn’s / Mike Hodder’s comments in post #264.

The F&G building must have been rebuilt over time, but presumably it had a cellar. Will this be eexcavated ? Viv.
 
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