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Black Patch

mariew said:
I remember my mom saying that her mom would never turn a gypsy away and would always buy the pegs or lucky heather, I can't remember if she said it was bad luck to turn them away or they would put a curse on her?
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Yes, my mum was terrified of Gypsies 'cursing' her if she failed to buy their pegs (we had a lot!) - so she used to hide if she knew they were in the area.....the 'jungle-drums would pound' and all the women went into hiding! These were not mass manufactured 'dolly-type' pegs, but hand-made from pieces of split wood, bound at one end by some sort of split withy. They also made 'washing-up' mops like mini-besom brooms; and they worked-well too! The gypsies sometimes left chalked symbols against someone's wall/gate-post; which always served to 'put the wind up' the recipient! Psychological warfare eh? However, they never went anywhere near my Grandmother, she had THEM terrified! :D
 
JohnO said:
The gypsies sometimes left chalked symbols against someone's wall/gate-post; which always served to 'put the wind up' the recipient!
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Many door to door sellers do this, it simply denotes 'easy touches' that will buy, or 'don't bother, these won't' to the next seller.
 
Re: Black patch Gypsies

hi, Sarah I will try and help you if I can.

I had a quick look and found nothing as yet.
I am only a novice at this but will try one way or another to help, keep trying, people do help a lot on this forum and they helped me establish a good sound connection with the people on the Black Patch.
 
Re: Black patch Gypsies

Hi, have looked at forums eg Romanygenes and Romaniesreunited on the Black Patch people many Smiths but no Florence but she may have been under another name or even with a different surname it can be complicated would any older relatives in your family be able to give you more information? I looked at three books eg Brumroamin by Ted Rudge could not spot anything.

If your relatives passed down stories about the Black Patch connections I feel they would be correct as that's what family's did but proving it can be really difficult as you know.

I was very,very lucky and still do not realise how it happened about finding out my strong connections.I hope my luck passes on to you.Do not give up this forum may help you yet.

Al the best.
 
Info on Gypsy families in York

Hi, Folks! Been a long time since I've been on this forum but I think I have some good information for anyone looking for Gypsy families. In the 1881 Census I came across this pocket of Gypsies camping on a river bank in York.

7, River Side, Attercliffe Cum Darnall, York

Easy (Probably a miss-spelling for Esau) Smith Head Unmarried Male 60yrs born Salby, Leics Occupation Gypsy Hawker
Susannha Smith Other Female 56yrs Salson, Derby Gypsy Hawker
Sarah A. Smith Daughter Unmarried 17yrs Bradford, York Gypsy Hawker
Patience Smith Widow 36yrs Wadsley, York Gypsy Hawker
James Smith Grandson 14yrs Kirkstall, York Gypsy Hawker
Nipton Smith Grandson 8yrs Brotherton, York Gypsy
Selina Smith Grandaughter 6yrs Sherburn, York Gypsy

I will be posting more but was unsure how much one post could take :)
 
Re: Info on Gypsy families in York

Second posting from 1881 Census....

Back of 7, River Side
Isaac Smith Head Unmarried 26yrs Retford, Nottingham Gypsy Hawker
Mary A. (last name listed as Charlotte but both listed as W for Widow or Wife and U for Unmarried so maybe they were living as man and wife) 21yrs Kirton in Lindsey, Lincoln Gypsy Hawker
Annie Smith Daughter 8mths Carbrook, York Gypsy
Taperty Smith Mother Widow 60yrs No listing for Birthplace Gypsy Hawker
Rabbi Smith Brother Unmarried 18yrs Doncaster, York Gypsy Hawker

There is more to come.....
 
Re: Info on Gypsy families in York

Thrid posting from 1881 Census....

No2 Waggon (Gypsy) River Street
William Smith Head Married 20yrs Bradford, York Gypsy Hawker
Sophia Smith Wife Married 19yrs Leics Gypsy Hawker
Priscilla Smith Daughter 11mths Carbrook, York Gypsy

9, River Street
Edward Smith Head Married 55yrs no birthplace listed Hawker
Rachel Smith Wife Married 55yrs no birthplace listed Hawker
Edward Smith Son Unmarried 18yrs Finley, York Hawker

There is more to come.....
 
Re: Info on Gypsy families in York

Fourth posting from 1881 Census.....

11, River Street
N. Smith Head Unmarried Female 24yrs Houghton Pannell, York
Harriet Smith Daughter 6yrs Bolsover, Derby
Darner Smith Daughter 5yrs Carbrook, York
Joe Smith Son 2yrs Carbrook, York
Flora Smith 3mths Carbrook, York

There is more to come.....
 
Re: Info on Gypsy families in York

Fifth posting from 1881 Census.....

Back of 9, River Street
William Carter Head Married 35yrs Burton-on-Trent Travelling Grinder (Hawker)
Barnett Carter Wife 35yrs Mettam, Lincoln
Mary A. Carter 16yrs Ilkeston, Nottingham
William A. Carter 10yrs Burton-on-Trent
Christ R. Carter Male 7yrs Nottingham
Joshua Carter 5yrs DArby
Silvey Carter Female 2wks Carsbrook, York

There is more to come.....
 
Re: Info on Gypsy families in York

Sixth posting from 1881 Census.....

No 3 Waggon River Street
Samuel Elliot Head Married 65yrs Willoughby, Notts Hawker (Gipsies)
Eliz. Elliot Wife 65yrs Leeds Hawker (Gipsies)
Emily Elliot Daughter 16yrs Clown, Derby (Gipsies)
Lillia Elliot Daughter 12yrs Rampton, Wocester (Gypsies)

Hope someone will find the info of use......
 
Re: Info on Gypsy families in York

Also found Baptism of Flora Smith on Familysearch.org 02/01/1881 at Carbrook, Yorks mother named as Nonisse - no named father
 
gypsysue, if you go to the bottom of the page, left hand corner, you will find a drop down menu to set the colour of your page, set your colour to Bham Clean, then your search word will then be highlighted in transparent yellow, the default colour setting will give the black highlight.

Colin
 
Lynne Storry said:
Hi, I am also a Loveridge descended from the gypsies of Black Patch. Any descendants should read the booklets published in the RTFHS Famous Families Series, especially The Family Tree of William and Margaret Loveridge by Pat Loveridge and The Family Tree of Woodfine Smith by Josephone Tombs. They show all family connections. My 3 x Gt. Grandfather was Esau Smith married to Sentenia Smith (King & Queen of Black Patch). Their daughter Cintamenta Smith married Ezekiel/Disegle/Tennant Loveridge and their son George/Gilderoy/Gilroy Loveridge married Polly (surname unknown), and their son George Loveridge (my Grandfather) married Florence Fowkes and had my Father, Alfred Loveridge. I am their only child, Lynne, and unfortunately the Loveridge part of the line dies out with me. If anyone has any knowledge or stories of any of the above people, I would be really interested, especially the maiden name of Polly. Thank you.
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Hi Lynne
Don't know Polly's surname but she died in 1905. Do you know that George/Gilderoy then married Fanny Maria Painter on Xmas Day 1915 in Handsworth? I suppose you know that your grandad George had siblings; Lily,Gertie,Gildy,Ethel & Harold. A close friend of mine's mom was born Gladys Loveridge (direct descendant) who is probably a similar age to your dad - I'll ask her if she knows of him. George/Gilderoy's brother John married my great-granny's sister Sabina Clayton (my great,great aunt?) 11/02/1889 at All Saints Church B'ham. Also, my great,great granny Eliza was Cintamenta's sister, she married Alfred Clayton son of William Clayton & Trezi-Ann Smith (Sentenia's sister). Cintamenta's & Eliza's brother James married Ellen Clayton - Alfred's sister. Hope this is of interest to you, I'll ask Gladys about your dad a.s.a.p.
 
GypsyClayton said:
Hi Lynne
Don't know Polly's surname but she died in 1905. Do you know that George/Gilderoy then married Fanny Maria Painter on Xmas Day 1915 in Handsworth? I suppose you know that your grandad George had siblings; Lily,Gertie,Gildy,Ethel & Harold. A close friend of mine's mom was born Gladys Loveridge (direct descendant) who is probably a similar age to your dad - I'll ask her if she knows of him. George/Gilderoy's brother John married my great-granny's sister Sabina Clayton (my great,great aunt?) 11/02/1889 at All Saints Church B'ham. Also, my great,great granny Eliza was Cintamenta's sister, she married Alfred Clayton son of William Clayton & Trezi-Ann Smith (Sentenia's sister). Cintamenta's & Eliza's brother James married Ellen Clayton - Alfred's sister. Hope this is of interest to you, I'll ask Gladys about your dad a.s.a.p.
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My goodness. What fabulous information you have given me. George/Gilderoy Loveridge was born about 1866 but can find no records other than one Census to confirm this. My Grandfather, George was born about 1886, his sister Lily Lumley (could this be Polly's maiden name) about 1892, Gildroy about 1896, Gertrude about 1897, Ethel about 1899 and Harold about 1900. Notice there is a gap of some six years between the birth of my Grandfather George and his sister Lily. Strange. I actually wonder whether George/Gilderoy was in prison, as I have found a few newspaper articles that show he was into burglary, etc. or could he have been in one of those Victorial Wars? I have been unable to trace Lily, Gildroy, Gertrude, Ethel or Harold any further. Can you advise me on that as I have no idea what happened to them? Interesting, but my Father, Alfred's eldest sister, was Gertie, then Hilda, Lily, then Harold (Tommy), Evelyn, Peggy, and Doreen. Any further help would be gratefully received.
 
Re: Black patch Gypsies

Charlie Chaplin. Born in the queens Caravan on the Black Patch between Smethwick and Birmingham.

On Radio 4 today (Monday). There was an insteresting programme about Chaplin where his son disclosed he had kept a letter sent by a man who expressly said he wanted nothing from the star. He gave details of about his father and where and when he was born. Cahplin would never say and biographers have failed to find a birth certificate.

Bet the programme is on the i player should anyone with Black Patch or Pat Collins circus interests be tempted.
 
Am listening to the radio programme on BBC iPlayer as I type this. The Chaplin Archive at 11.00 this morning. This news is already on Wikipedia on the Chaplin biography page and on the Black patch page.
 
Re: Info on Gypsy families in York

The letter was sent by Jack Hill from Tamworth and I wonder if we have any of 'Jack Hills' decendents on the forum. Jack was born in 1891/2. Charlie Cahplins mother was Hannah Hill so if we do, they may be distantly related to Chaplin.

'You were born in a Caravan (so was I) It was a good one. The caravan belonged to the Gypsy Queen, who was my auntie. You were born on the Black Patch in Smethwick near Birmingham.'
 
My understanding is that Gypsies, Showmen (fairground people) and Circuses form three separate groups and although they all live in caravans they do not mix yet this story combines all three. This is why I treat this story with some scepticism. However I am not ruling it out as I think it perfectly possible that Chaplin could have been born on the Black Patch. This might explain why his birth does not appear to have been registered as it would surely have been if he had been born in a fixed place such as a house.
 
Although Charlie had no birth certificate , did his mother and father??? If so it is doubtful that they were gypsies I would think
 
Ted Rudge was on TV last night and said that it was perfectly possible that Charlie Chaplin was of Gypsy origin but he was basing this on musical ability with different instruments and love of the open air.
 
leonardjob said:
Although Charlie had no birth certificate , did his mother and father??? If so it is doubtful that they were gypsies I would think
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leonardjob, in answer to your question, yes, his mother had a birth certificate of which I have a copy, because of the link to my family name of Pedlingham, which I came upon on various web sites.
Hannah Harriet PEDLINGHAM Hill was born 6 Aug 1865 at 11 Camden Street. Newington, Surrey.
 
Hi pollypops,
It was really odd that he should be in the news today (friday), because my son and I were only talking about the family link yesterday (thursday) !! ---(a mystery which I am still trying to unravel, but I think I'm almost there) he is a mystery I suppose because of his apparently non existent birth certificate, but everything I have read so far maintains that he was born in England, ...will we ever know? ...I don't know... but I wish I could just find the missing link between his family and mine.
 
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