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Birmingham's Working Horses

mw0njm. said:

They are cheap to run:grinning:​

10 Best Driving Horse Breeds for Pulling a Carriage​

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There's an awful lot wrong with that article, Pete - it's both factually wrong and contradictory. For example, describing the Welsh Mountain Pony (Class A) as "3ft tall" - when the smallest of them are 11.2 hands, i.e., 3ft 10" - and saying that Welsh cobs go up to 16 hands, when the tallest of them are 15 hands to 15.2 hands, and 14.2 to 15 hands is typical.
It describes the Morgan as an "ideal beginner horse" - which is like saying that a Lotus Super Seven is "an ideal learner's car"! Like those Super Sevens, the Morgan is a superb horse - but needs a very competent rider, or it will be all over the place. It also talks about how Thoroughbreds can be good and fast driving horses, and then says further down that "breeds that do not make the most sense for driving carriages are horses that are best suited as riding horses or racehorses" . . . such as Thoroughbreds?
Re. the Welshies; Welsh Cobs and Welsh Ponies are very capable of being both riding and driving horses - and before the invention of the Land Rover and the Little Grey Ferguson tractor, they did the jobs of both on Welsh hill farms.
The author, Kathy Blocksdorf, is described as "an equine expert and writer with over three decades of experience in training and riding horses."
You could have fooled me ;)

With best regards,
Jack
 
jmadone said:
Knowing absolutely nothing about horses, ponies or carriages your post tempted me to look on the internet regarding costs, upkeep etc.
I was amazed to find that you could buy a decent cart and a pony to pull it for under £1000.
If I had a bit of land with storage/stable facilities I would be sorely tempted.
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Bear in mind that the purchase price is just that; then the bills come in. native type ponies, such as Welsh ponies, in light work, can often go without shoes, but their feet still need regular checks from a hoof trimmer; if you do a fair bit of road work, they may need shoes, at least on the front feet. From memory, the horse I had (a Thoroughbred) cost about £65 for a set of four shoes (2015 prices), which lasted about 6 weeks (as he was light on his feet and his feet grew quite slowly). Even if the shoes are not worn out, his feet still need doing at about every 4 - 6 weeks, as the wall of the hoof is the equvalent of our fingernails, and it's growing all the time.
Feed - if you have a native-type pony, like a Welsh, Fell Pony, New Forest, etc, they can do well on good grazing alone, but the grazing has to be managed. Horses and ponies will eat the best grass and leave the rough stuff; if you leave a pony / ponies in a field without giving that field a rest - by splitting it in half, and grazing alternately - or grazing it with other animals such as cattle or sheep, it gets 'horse-sick', with the quality of the grass going downhill and weeds flourishing. If you leave the horse droppings where they land (and they'll be in two or three dumping grounds), it encourages parasitic worms, so you need to go round on, say, a weekly basis, clearing them up.
Depending on the particular animal and its metabolism, they may well need extra bought-in feed, especially through the winter - and bedding (straw, shavings, wood chips,or the like) in a stable or field shelter. And, of course, the stable / field shelter has to be mucked out every day.
Worms; the horse / pony has to be wormed twice a year, and his teeth need to be checked (and rasped if required) by a vet at least once a year.
And, bear in mind, if he's living out, he needs to be checked at an absolute minimum of once a day (and that's pushing it) - and twice a day is far safer. If a horse gets ill or injures himself, he can't call you or a vet on his mobile!
Finally, if you go away- even for a day out - or are off sick yourself, unless you know another horse owner who can cover for you, you have to pay a free-lance groom to come and do the work for you. He needs grooming (which helps you find any swellings or minor injuries), and have his feet picked out, every day.
It's a HUGE commitment to undertake - in terms of both time and money - and I can honestly say that when I sold my horse after about two and a half years ownership, it was a massive relief. I still go riding, but the only way I'd even consider buying another horse would be if I could afford to have someone else do all the work for me.
HTH, and best regards,
Jack
 
mw0njm. said:
They are cheap to run:grinning:
Click to expand...
Standing joke amongst horse owners:
Q. How do you end up with a small fortune?
A. Start off with a large fortune, and buy a horse!

(my wallet just said "SHADDUP, will ya? I'm still in rehab from when you had Brown Bob!")

Jack (M0DZM)
 
mw0njm. said:
at least the bike had brakes:grinning: i have just been out to feed the shetlands a apple they look froze in this gale:(
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As long as Shetlands have a windbreak, they're not fussed about the cold. I used to live up the Dee Valley, halfway between Aberdeen and Balmoral. One bitterly cold winter, I was driving to work past a farm where the farmer had a few Shetlands as a bit of a hobby. They were grazing out in the open, with a thick layer of snow on their backs - because so little of their body heat escaped through their coats, it wasn't enough to melt the snow :cool:
Jack
 
HorseCoper said:
As long as Shetlands have a windbreak, they're not fussed about the cold. I used to live up the Dee Valley, halfway between Aberdeen and Balmoral. One bitterly cold winter, I was driving to work past a farm where the farmer had a few Shetlands as a bit of a hobby. They were grazing out in the open, with a thick layer of snow on their backs - because so little of their body heat escaped through their coats, it wasn't enough to melt the snow :cool:
Jack
Click to expand...
even so i still feel sory for poor animals out in this weather...they have never worked they are just pets.
 
Horsecoper. though obviously i relised the cost of feeding, I had not relised how often their feet had to be dealt with. In the old days it sounds like horse transport was as expensive as a car nowadays
 
mw0njm. said:
even so i still feel sory for poor animals out in this weather...they have never worked they are just pets.
Click to expand...
British natives will do fine in our weather as long as there is some shelter from strong winds & driving rain - a good tall hedge for instance. Unless we have extremely out of the ordinary, or out of season, cold, they'll be just fine. They will have thick winter costs adapted to keep them warm & dry.

I had an Anglo-Arab Cob cross & she fluffed up big time in the winter months. The only time I attempted to put a rug on her is when we had a really cold snap with snow after she'd shed most of her winter coat. I say attempted! The next morning when I went to the field, she was devoid of said rug. She'd managed to scrape it off on some trees & I found it dumped & trampled on in a puddle in the far corner of the field!
 
HorseCoper said:
Bear in mind that the purchase price is just that; then the bills come in. native type ponies, such as Welsh ponies, in light work, can often go without shoes, but their feet still need regular checks from a hoof trimmer; if you do a fair bit of road work, they may need shoes, at least on the front feet. From memory, the horse I had (a Thoroughbred) cost about £65 for a set of four shoes (2015 prices), which lasted about 6 weeks (as he was light on his feet and his feet grew quite slowly). Even if the shoes are not worn out, his feet still need doing at about every 4 - 6 weeks, as the wall of the hoof is the equvalent of our fingernails, and it's growing all the time.
Feed - if you have a native-type pony, like a Welsh, Fell Pony, New Forest, etc, they can do well on good grazing alone, but the grazing has to be managed. Horses and ponies will eat the best grass and leave the rough stuff; if you leave a pony / ponies in a field without giving that field a rest - by splitting it in half, and grazing alternately - or grazing it with other animals such as cattle or sheep, it gets 'horse-sick', with the quality of the grass going downhill and weeds flourishing. If you leave the horse droppings where they land (and they'll be in two or three dumping grounds), it encourages parasitic worms, so you need to go round on, say, a weekly basis, clearing them up.
Depending on the particular animal and its metabolism, they may well need extra bought-in feed, especially through the winter - and bedding (straw, shavings, wood chips,or the like) in a stable or field shelter. And, of course, the stable / field shelter has to be mucked out every day.
Worms; the horse / pony has to be wormed twice a year, and his teeth need to be checked (and rasped if required) by a vet at least once a year.
And, bear in mind, if he's living out, he needs to be checked at an absolute minimum of once a day (and that's pushing it) - and twice a day is far safer. If a horse gets ill or injures himself, he can't call you or a vet on his mobile!
Finally, if you go away- even for a day out - or are off sick yourself, unless you know another horse owner who can cover for you, you have to pay a free-lance groom to come and do the work for you. He needs grooming (which helps you find any swellings or minor injuries), and have his feet picked out, every day.
It's a HUGE commitment to undertake - in terms of both time and money - and I can honestly say that when I sold my horse after about two and a half years ownership, it was a massive relief. I still go riding, but the only way I'd even consider buying another horse would be if I could afford to have someone else do all the work for me.
HTH, and best regards,
Jack
Click to expand...
Yes, a grass kept horse or pony will require very little in the way of supplementary feeding when there is plenty of grass but it's the other costs that creep up.

Where I kept mine, the monthly rent paid to the landowner included him putting hay out in the winter months (and in drought periods of the grass browned), but there was also shoes every six to 8 weeks, worming powders, inoculations, insurance & on top of that, my horse had sweet itch (an allergy to midge bites) so as soon as the weather started warming there'd be vats of Benzyl Benzoate that our local chemist would make up for me to be liberally applied as a soothant & fly repellent (I still remember the smell!).
 
JudiM said:
Yes, a grass kept horse or pony will require very little in the way of supplementary feeding when there is plenty of grass but it's the other costs that creep up.

Where I kept mine, the monthly rent paid to the landowner included him putting hay out in the winter months (and in drought periods of the grass browned), but there was also shoes every six to 8 weeks, worming powders, inoculations, insurance & on top of that, my horse had sweet itch (an allergy to midge bites) so as soon as the weather started warming there'd be vats of Benzyl Benzoate that our local chemist would make up for me to be liberally applied as a soothant & fly repellent (I still remember the smell!).
Click to expand...
we had trecking ponies and a inn the local farmer gave us all year grazing and we supply'd his booze at week ends
 
Although the railway employed many horses, and it is an accepted fact that they were sometimes used to pull railway wagons , no photo has yet appeared showing this. This photo , not Birmingham but Goole, shows that this must have been one of the toughest jobs horses had to do.

horses pulling rail van goole..byelines .oct.2013.jpg
 
JudiM said:
British natives will do fine in our weather as long as there is some shelter from strong winds & driving rain - a good tall hedge for instance. Unless we have extremely out of the ordinary, or out of season, cold, they'll be just fine. They will have thick winter costs adapted to keep them warm & dry.

I had an Anglo-Arab Cob cross & she fluffed up big time in the winter months. The only time I attempted to put a rug on her is when we had a really cold snap with snow after she'd shed most of her winter coat. I say attempted! The next morning when I went to the field, she was devoid of said rug. She'd managed to scrape it off on some trees & I found it dumped & trampled on in a puddle in the far corner of the field!
Click to expand...
A friend of mine had some Dartmoor ponies, and when she moved them to a new field one winter which - unlike the previous one - was rather exposed, she bought a sizeable field shelter for them. The day after they moved, it was raining hard, and very windy, so she put their hay in the shelter. They looked at her as though to say "What are you playing at, woman?" - and dragged the hay out into the open to eat it! Heads down, tails towards the wind, and they were just fine . . .
 
mw0njm. said:
even so i still feel sory for poor animals out in this weather...they have never worked they are just pets.
Click to expand...
So what if they have never worked? They don't see themselves as 'just pets' - but as very hardy animals to whom being out in all weathers is normal!
 
Below is a link to a British Pathe film showing a shunting horse at work at Newmarket. This might appear to be a very tough job, but in reality it was a hard pull for a matter of seconds until the wagon or coach started to roll - then it only took a realtively light pull to keep it on the move - and it would, at most, only be going a hundred yards or so, and frequently much less. Once the wagon was in the right spot, then the horse had a breather as he walked to the next job.
In comparison, a team of horses ploughing in heavy clay soil, such as you find in the Weald of Kent and Sussex - well, that really was a hard slog from start to finish with no let up. Equally tough was working a horse-powered reaper binder (where the mechanism was driven from the wheels). That was another non-stop slog for three horses, and there was no let up - the reaper binder had to be pulled at a steady speed, or the binding mechanism would get in a right tangle. Both of the above jobs were reserved for horses in the prime of their working lives - from say 6 to 12 years old. A shunting horse could carry on doing his job well past that age, and quite likely the railway would buy a horse from a farmer when he got too old for ploughing, and use him as a shunting horse. On that work, he could probably keep working until he was 17-20 years old.
Jack
MTA - Charlie, the shunting horse shown in this video, was 17 years old when it was made, and he's clearly still well up to the job.
www.britishpathe.com

OUT TAKES / CUTS FROM CP 504 - SHUNTING HORSE, MINI-TRACTOR and SAND ARTIST

Out+takes+%28rushes%2C+cuts%29+for+stories+featured+in+CP+504.
www.britishpathe.com www.britishpathe.com
 
Thanks, Horse Coper, a really interesting video. But I was not quite sure what they meant by the horse being able to ignore points
 
I know what points are, but points still have to be changed if wagons are moved onto another track, so what difference is it if a horse or an engine is pulling the wagons?
 
Here's another clip of a shunting horse, this time working in Sheffield, and moving a wagon from one road in the shed to an adjacent one. Note the way the horse gets the wagon moving fast enough to bounce off the spring buffers at the end of the head shunt, spins round, and having let the buffers shove the wagon in the right direction, all the horse has to do a fairly light pull to keep it moving - by which time, the points have been flipped across by the shunter to put the wagon onto the near road. That's working smart, not hard!
mikejee said:
I know what points are, but points still have to be changed if wagons are moved onto another track, so what difference is it if a horse or an engine is pulling the wagons?
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As you say, the points still have to be changed if wagons are moved onto another track - but what struck me was how well the horse got the wagon moving at just the right speed, timed his spin and made it at the right spot, to catch the wagon on the rebound. That way, rather than having to stop the wagon at the buffer stop, he let the buffers stop the wagon moving from left to right and bounce it back towards the shed, so that when the horse took up the slack in the chain, the wagon was already moving in the right direction, and all the horse had to do was to keep it moving.
As regards what difference did it make whether a horse or an engine was doing the job; firstly, if you look at the very cramped space available between the end of the shed and the buffer stops, I'm not so sure if the smallest shunting engine could be fitted in. The points are to the right of the shed in the film, and the distance from them to the buffer stops looks too short to fit in an engine as well as the wagon.
But even if the shed did have a small enough shunting engine to fit, the layout of shed, roads, and buffer stops looks like it was a shed for loading / unloading wagons. If so, then loaded wagons would be pushed into the shed as a complete rake of wagons, by an engine, from the far end of the shed.
As each one was off-loaded, the horse would pull it out of the loading platform road up to the buffers, and while the shunter (the man) pulled the points across as the wagon passed him, the horse would reverse direction and pull it back into the shed on the empties road (you'll notice that the shunter is not leading the horse, who is working by himself). That process would continue until all the wagons had been unloaded and pulled into the empties road - at which point the shunting engine would come to the far end of the shed, pull out the rake of empty wagons, and push the next rake to be unloaded into the loading platform road.
Look at the efficiency of working. The shunting engine only deals with complete rakes of wagons (which the horse couldn't do) and the horse shunts the wagons one at a time from the unloading road to the empties road. Even if there was an engine small enough to fit into the limited space available, think of the cost of having an engine, with a driver and a fireman - both on much higher wages than a horse shunter - and the cost of the coal, water, oil, maintenance and capital cost as compared to the way smaller cost of buying and keeping one horse.
Another point is that, at the end of the shift, or if the engine needed to top up with water (a shunting engine water tank won't last a full shift), the engine could only get out by pushing all the empty wagons out of the empties road - and that road would have to stay empty until the engine got back. The horse, in contrast, could stop at any time, and just walk round the outside of the shed.
It might appear that the layout is very poor - and it is, in many ways. But you have to allow for the fact that when the goods facility was first built, they had enough room to lay it out well - but over the years, as goods traffic doubled, trebled and quadrupled, it got more and more crampled. Equally, goods sheds like this had to be in the middle of towns and cities, as that was where their parcel traffic originated, and where it had to be delivered. By the time the railway realised they were running out of room, all the land outside their boundary was probably built over, and it would have cost an arm and a leg - and possibly the cost of obtaining a compulsory purchase order - in order to get any more.
Sorry for the lengthy reply, Mike, but any sort of shunting operation, let alone running a large goods shed, is a far more complex job than I would have realised before I worked as a fireman on the Kent & East Sussex Railway - and especially in such cramped conditions as are seen in the clip I linked to.
In fact, men I've met who worked in goods sheds and shunting yards told me they had shunting puzzles - like the bridge and chess problems seen in newspapers nowadays - where you were shown a layout of a shunting yard, drawn to scale, with various roads, points, sidings and wagons. The objective was to work out how you could move the wagons shown into the correct roads, in the right order, in the minimum numbers of moves of the shunting engine - and those competitions were very keenly contested by shunters!
HTH, and best regards,
Jack
 
mikejee said:
Horsecoper. though obviously i relised the cost of feeding, I had not relised how often their feet had to be dealt with. In the old days it sounds like horse transport was as expensive as a car nowadays
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Not really, Mike. As with so many jobs, there is no 'one-size-fits-all' solution; it's a matter of what's the most appropriate tool for the job. For a start, the capital cost of a horse was much less than a comparable motor vehicle, and even when it became too old to do heavy delivery work, it was well-enough trained and experienced that you could sell it on to another company or individual whose work was lighter, so it wasn't a total loss. Shoeing these days is expensive, because horses are so widely scattered that almost all shoeing smiths have all their gear in a van, with a mobile forge, gas bottles, and all the shoes, nails and tools - it all costs more than having a forge in a village where you're surrounded by horse-powered farms, or in a town where a high proportion of deliveries are hauled by horses, and the customers bring the horse to you.
Another point was that farmers would breed horses from their own mares, train them up and put them into the heaviest work - and then, a few years later, sell them onto railway companies and town users as horses which could go straight into heavy work. As the horses aged, the farmers would then buy them back from town users, use them - working in harness alongside a youngster on lighter work - to teach young horses the job, and also use the mares to breed yet more foals - one gigantic merry-go-round!
And yet another point in favour of using horses for town deliveries was that, due to traffic congestion, very often motor traffic was moving very little faster than horse drawn - and users of horses didn't need driving licences or insurance, and nor did they pay road tax!
Just as an aside, during the 1980s, Young's Brewery in London had some business efficiency consultants come in to assess their brewery in south London. Towards the end of the afternoon, the consultants were stunned to see a procession of horse-drawn drays coming back into the yard! The bosses explained that, even though they were probably making a loss on horse deliveries (which they only did on a limited radius fom the brewery) they thought the publicity gained made it worthwhile, but asked the consultants to cost it all out for them.
To everyone's astonishment, taking into account all capital and running costs, the consultants found that up to a ten mile radius from the brewery, it was cheaper to deliver by horse than it was by motor transport! And, of course, the eye-grabbing publicity of a horse-drawn dray was the cherry on top!
With best regards,
Jack
 
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