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Birmingham Steam Buses 1824-1910.
The first mention of any Huggins, other than pork butchers, in Birmingham is in 1855.
1855-62 Huggins John, engineer & machlnist, 68 Moseley street
1867 Huggins John, brass & iron tube maker, Bridge tube works,High St ,
Deritend, & engineer & machlnist, 68 Moseley street
1868 Huggins John, brass & iron tube maker, Bridge tube works,High St ,
Deritend, & engineer & machlnist, 68 Moseley street & 4 Charles
Henry St.
1872-76 Huggins John, brass & iron tube manufr. Brittania tube works, 105-107
Glover street
1878-80 Huggins John, brass & iron tube manufr. Brittania tube works, 105-107
Glover street & Watery Lane
1893 Huggins William, brass & iron tube manufr. Brittania tube works, 105-
107 Glover street
Mike
1855-62 Huggins John, engineer & machlnist, 68 Moseley street
1867 Huggins John, brass & iron tube maker, Bridge tube works,High St ,
Deritend, & engineer & machlnist, 68 Moseley street
1868 Huggins John, brass & iron tube maker, Bridge tube works,High St ,
Deritend, & engineer & machlnist, 68 Moseley street & 4 Charles
Henry St.
1872-76 Huggins John, brass & iron tube manufr. Brittania tube works, 105-107
Glover street
1878-80 Huggins John, brass & iron tube manufr. Brittania tube works, 105-107
Glover street & Watery Lane
1893 Huggins William, brass & iron tube manufr. Brittania tube works, 105-
107 Glover street
Mike
DavidGrain
master brummie
Sorry I have not been able to read through all the 524 posts on this thread so sorry if I am repeating anything.
I remember my history text book at school having a picture of Dr Church's steam coach in it. It said that it did London to Birmingham run. It is now 50 years (ugh) since I was at school so I cannot remember the book title/authur but I know that it had many illustrations in it from Punch.
I remember my history text book at school having a picture of Dr Church's steam coach in it. It said that it did London to Birmingham run. It is now 50 years (ugh) since I was at school so I cannot remember the book title/authur but I know that it had many illustrations in it from Punch.
DavidGrain
master brummie
Sorry after 50 years I just don't remember. Apart from the caption, I don't think there was any reference in the text of the book. All I can remember is that it had a red cover. I was studying English & European History 1789 -1914 at the time for GCE O Level. I was at George Dixon's and the history master was Geoffrey Sandercock.
Thylacine
master brummie
Thanks for looking into John Huggins, Mike! Apart from the quote posted above, Prosser's only mention of Huggins is in the index, where he is "Huggins, John, Dr Church's foreman". So he must have been in Brum c 1833. But (correct me if I'm wrong) just because he's not in directories pre-1855 doesn't mean he wasn't in Birmingham then, does it? Presumably one had to pay to be included in the directory, and a young Huggins might not have thought it worth the sacrifice of part of his hard-earned five bob a week (or whatever he earned).
Thylacine
master brummie
Greetings, David, and welcome to the BSB classroom (we could do with some new pupils!
). Thanks for that recollection. It is good to know that GCE O Level history students circa 1960 were gazing on The Doctor's steamer, even if not mentioned in the text. It is interesting that the "London to Birmingham" myth was being propagated even then! I wonder if there's any way of tracking down that book? Hmmm ... 
Thylacine
master brummie
The Doctor's Wives.
According to the 1841 census, Dr William Church was then living at 95 High Street, Bordesley, with (presumably his wife) Ann Church. And Lloyd also determined that (Mary?) Ann Church died in the second quarter of 1841 or 1846. By the time of the 1851 census, widower William Church was boarding at Stratford Place, Camp Hill.
The Daily Post obituary (23 April 1864) states: "Twice married, the last time in this town, he survived the second wife by about twelve years". Which implies that Dr Church's second wife died circa 1851 (presumably before census day 1851).
Molesworth (post #484) discovered a marriage record of 26 November 1840 in which one William Church (son of Isaac Church) married one Eliza Willoughby (daughter of John Lethbridge - so probably a widow) at St Philip's Cathedral, Birmingham. It is difficult to reconcile this marriage with the census, BMD and obituary data re our Doctor and his wives.
It would be nice to attain some precision as regards Dr Church's genealogy and family. He must have had at least one daughter, since he returned to the US in 1861 (this is the previously accepted date, though the 1864 obituary says "five years since", which would make it rather 1859) to live with his son-in-law.
[Plaintive "HELP PLEASE?". All together now: "So rise the steam and come along ..." :222:]
According to the 1841 census, Dr William Church was then living at 95 High Street, Bordesley, with (presumably his wife) Ann Church. And Lloyd also determined that (Mary?) Ann Church died in the second quarter of 1841 or 1846. By the time of the 1851 census, widower William Church was boarding at Stratford Place, Camp Hill.
The Daily Post obituary (23 April 1864) states: "Twice married, the last time in this town, he survived the second wife by about twelve years". Which implies that Dr Church's second wife died circa 1851 (presumably before census day 1851).
Molesworth (post #484) discovered a marriage record of 26 November 1840 in which one William Church (son of Isaac Church) married one Eliza Willoughby (daughter of John Lethbridge - so probably a widow) at St Philip's Cathedral, Birmingham. It is difficult to reconcile this marriage with the census, BMD and obituary data re our Doctor and his wives.
It would be nice to attain some precision as regards Dr Church's genealogy and family. He must have had at least one daughter, since he returned to the US in 1861 (this is the previously accepted date, though the 1864 obituary says "five years since", which would make it rather 1859) to live with his son-in-law.
[Plaintive "HELP PLEASE?"
. All together now: "So rise the steam and come along ..." :222:]
Thylacine
master brummie
Steam Carriages: A French Point of View.
Molesworth (post #484) provided a link to a French webpage entitled "Généalogie de l’automobile", to which I am re-posting a link because I missed it first time through ("My eyes! My eyes!"
). So perhaps others missed it too, and it is VERY GOOD, even if it is in French . For those readers whose French is a bit rusty, try Google Translate (not bad, but always good for a laugh!). I quote:
Molesworth (post #484) provided a link to a French webpage entitled "Généalogie de l’automobile", to which I am re-posting a link because I missed it first time through ("My eyes! My eyes!"
). So perhaps others missed it too, and it is VERY GOOD, even if it is in French . For those readers whose French is a bit rusty, try Google Translate (not bad, but always good for a laugh!). I quote:Yet the Chinese are written to honor a Belgian Jesuit named Father Verbiest who resided fourteen years in China, from 1672. This was the first to experience the movement of an autonomous vehicle, having constructed a toy 65 cm representing an odd steam wagon for the entertainment of the Emperor and his Court. Historians do not agree on the date of this achievement, which is located between 1679 and 1681. However, this toy propelled by steam, spinning in circles, by his own means, in the courtyard of the palace, exciting the audience. This led to the emperor with honors, Father Verbiest, whose discovery quickly became a beautiful toy unimportant. To prevent it from falling into oblivion, a Reverend Italian Grimaldi, presented an object relative to the same Beijing, the eighteenth century, always in the presence of the Emperor of China. This coincidence was so obvious that we think, even today, the toy vehicle of Belgian missionary has always been the model for his successor Italian.
Aidan
master brummie
Re: The Doctor's Wives.
The pipes, the pipes are calling me.... :MusicTuba:
I can't add any precision but there is someone on Ancestry that has the following info in their tree - it could be complete rubbish but intriguing:
William Church
BIRTH: 29 Oct 1785 - Worthington, MA (Massachusetts)
MARRIAGE: 08 Dec 1808 (8 Dec 1808)
DEATH: Birmingham, England
PARENTS: Isaac Church (1742 – 1838), Elinor Daniels (1747 – 1838)
SPOUSE: Sophia Corse (?)
Child: Sophia Church (1816 – 1913)
...
It would be nice to attain some precision as regards Dr Church's genealogy and family. He must have had at least one daughter, since he returned to the US in 1861 (this is the previously accepted date, though the 1864 obituary says "five years since", which would make it rather 1859) to live with his son-in-law.
[Plaintive "HELP PLEASE?"
The pipes, the pipes are calling me.... :MusicTuba:
I can't add any precision but there is someone on Ancestry that has the following info in their tree - it could be complete rubbish but intriguing:
William Church
BIRTH: 29 Oct 1785 - Worthington, MA (Massachusetts)
MARRIAGE: 08 Dec 1808 (8 Dec 1808)
DEATH: Birmingham, England
PARENTS: Isaac Church (1742 – 1838), Elinor Daniels (1747 – 1838)
SPOUSE: Sophia Corse (?)
Child: Sophia Church (1816 – 1913)
motorman-mike
Brum visitor who stayed.
:franceflag:Mon dieu et haw hee haw, so ze vapeurs a la France appear yet again so moi av ze excuse to add another of Monsewer Bollee's creations (sur la on ze left ) along with another of unknown French origin.
Listen carefully, I shall say zis only wance - I am from a skool where reading means only looking at za pictures so am not affected by ze foreign text and am at a loss to follow long tracts of prose in zis bon thread so I shall insert pictures if I can to redress za balance. I shall of course endeavor to keep said pictures in line with the subject of the thread however tenuous they might just be!:wave:
Listen carefully, I shall say zis only wance - I am from a skool where reading means only looking at za pictures so am not affected by ze foreign text and am at a loss to follow long tracts of prose in zis bon thread so I shall insert pictures if I can to redress za balance. I shall of course endeavor to keep said pictures in line with the subject of the thread however tenuous they might just be!:wave:
Aidan
master brummie
You're a true European Motorman.
There is a marriage of a William Church & Sophia Corse on 08 Dec 1808 in Vershire, Orange, Vermont https://pilot.familysearch.org/reco...=recordimage&c=fs:1675550&r=r_732242078&pn=p1
There is a marriage of a William Church & Sophia Corse on 08 Dec 1808 in Vershire, Orange, Vermont https://pilot.familysearch.org/reco...=recordimage&c=fs:1675550&r=r_732242078&pn=p1
Lloyd
master brummie
I don't remember the book, but I was at GD and remember Geoff Sandercock (actually the late Geoff Sandercock now, sadly) although he wasn't one of my regular teachers.
Sorry I have been 'absent' for a few days, pressure of work you know. Anyway, found and had a smile at this 'magical' scholarly tale!
Thylacine
master brummie
Welcome back to BSB, Penfold (we've missed you). Well done for deftly re-boarding the full-steam-ahead BSB! And thanks for those contributions. The "ho for hoggwarts!" site is very amusing! 
(Though you'll have observed that Aidan "Skywalker" Molesworth has moved on to the "Steamwars" theme. 
)
(Though you'll have observed that Aidan "Skywalker" Molesworth has moved on to the "Steamwars" theme. )
Thylacine
master brummie
Ferdinand Verbiest's 17th Century Steamer.
Flemish Jesuit missionary and scientist Ferdinand Verbiest (1623-1688; Chinese name Nán Huáirén) designed a miniature (65 cm) steam-propelled wagon for the Chinese Kāngxī emperor (reigned 1661-1725). Verbiest described his pioneering steamer in Astronomia Europaea (Dillingen: Johannes Caspar Bencard, 1687). This work is in the remarkable collection of Prof Fletcher, who states in his 2008 exhibition catalogue: "Though published in 1687 this book was based on an earlier work published in China in 1668. This places the construction of the carriage not later than 1665 for he speaks of it having been built three years earlier. Verbiest can therefore be credited with the earliest known application of steam power to the propulsion of vehicles and hence with the singularly appropriate title 'Father of the Automobile'."
The Verbiest steamer, described in Chapter 24 ("Pneumatica") of the above-named work, is (as far as I can tell) not illustrated by him, and there is considerable doubt as to whether he actually constructed a working model; though as head of the Chinese Bureau of Astronomy he had access to the best Chinese craftsmen and engineers. The illustration below (picture 1) is apparently from an 18th century print, and shows that the mechanism involved a jet of steam driving a turbine, which powered the back wheels through a system of gears. The boiler and jet look remarkably similar to those of the "Newtonian" steam wagon seen earlier in post #356.
Though he and the other Jesuit missionaries suffered persecution in the period 1665-1668 due to an anti-Christianity campaign led by corrupt astrologer Yáng Guāngxiān, Ferdinand Verbiest recovered his position and became a favourite of, and tutor to, the young emperor. The steam wagon design may indeed have been created while he was in prison. Ferdinand Verbiest is seen below (picture 2) as imagined by Japanese artist Utagawa Kuniyoshi in an 1827 coloured woodcut.
Also seen below (picture 3) is an expanded version of the "joke" picture of Verbiest's steamer posted earlier. And we also see (picture 4) the 2002 Brumm version (I kid you not!), supposedly of the Verbiest steamer, but apparently not faithful to the original design.
Flemish Jesuit missionary and scientist Ferdinand Verbiest (1623-1688; Chinese name Nán Huáirén) designed a miniature (65 cm) steam-propelled wagon for the Chinese Kāngxī emperor (reigned 1661-1725). Verbiest described his pioneering steamer in Astronomia Europaea (Dillingen: Johannes Caspar Bencard, 1687). This work is in the remarkable collection of Prof Fletcher, who states in his 2008 exhibition catalogue: "Though published in 1687 this book was based on an earlier work published in China in 1668. This places the construction of the carriage not later than 1665 for he speaks of it having been built three years earlier. Verbiest can therefore be credited with the earliest known application of steam power to the propulsion of vehicles and hence with the singularly appropriate title 'Father of the Automobile'."
The Verbiest steamer, described in Chapter 24 ("Pneumatica") of the above-named work, is (as far as I can tell) not illustrated by him, and there is considerable doubt as to whether he actually constructed a working model; though as head of the Chinese Bureau of Astronomy he had access to the best Chinese craftsmen and engineers. The illustration below (picture 1) is apparently from an 18th century print, and shows that the mechanism involved a jet of steam driving a turbine, which powered the back wheels through a system of gears. The boiler and jet look remarkably similar to those of the "Newtonian" steam wagon seen earlier in post #356.
Though he and the other Jesuit missionaries suffered persecution in the period 1665-1668 due to an anti-Christianity campaign led by corrupt astrologer Yáng Guāngxiān, Ferdinand Verbiest recovered his position and became a favourite of, and tutor to, the young emperor. The steam wagon design may indeed have been created while he was in prison. Ferdinand Verbiest is seen below (picture 2) as imagined by Japanese artist Utagawa Kuniyoshi in an 1827 coloured woodcut.
Also seen below (picture 3) is an expanded version of the "joke" picture of Verbiest's steamer posted earlier. And we also see (picture 4) the 2002 Brumm version (I kid you not!), supposedly of the Verbiest steamer, but apparently not faithful to the original design.
Aidan
master brummie
"Huflepuf. Also you hav a face like a squished tomato." (welcome back Lloyd & brill link)
Aidan
master brummie
There is a possible death/burial record for a Wm Church 03 Jul 1863 in Vermont (though the dates don't line up with the Obit) https://pilot.familysearch.org/reco...=recordimage&c=fs:1680846&r=r_656571320&pn=p1
Here are the certified Death of female Churches in the Birmingham area from FreeBMD:
Deaths Jun 1840
CHURCH Matilda Jane Birmingham 16 263
Deaths Jun 1841
Church Mary Ann Birmingham 16 227
Deaths Sep 1843
CHURCH Hannah Birmingham 16 212
Deaths Jun 1847
Church Hannah Birmingham 16 218
Deaths Jun 1849
Church Mary Ann Birmingham 16 188
Deaths Mar 1851
CHURCH Emma Birmingham 16 256
Deaths Jun 1851
Church Mary Birmingham 16 224
Deaths Sep 1853
Church Sarah Eliza Sophia? Birmingham 6d 35
Deaths Sep 1857
Church Mary Birmingham 6d 37
Deaths Dec 1862
Church Emily Jane French Birmingham 6d 45
Here are the certified Death of female Churches in the Birmingham area from FreeBMD:
Deaths Jun 1840
CHURCH Matilda Jane Birmingham 16 263
Deaths Jun 1841
Church Mary Ann Birmingham 16 227
Deaths Sep 1843
CHURCH Hannah Birmingham 16 212
Deaths Jun 1847
Church Hannah Birmingham 16 218
Deaths Jun 1849
Church Mary Ann Birmingham 16 188
Deaths Mar 1851
CHURCH Emma Birmingham 16 256
Deaths Jun 1851
Church Mary Birmingham 16 224
Deaths Sep 1853
Church Sarah Eliza Sophia? Birmingham 6d 35
Deaths Sep 1857
Church Mary Birmingham 6d 37
Deaths Dec 1862
Church Emily Jane French Birmingham 6d 45
DavidGrain
master brummie
A digretion but I am sure the others will not mind my thanking Lloyd for directing me to Geoff Sandercock’s obituary in 2009. I was at GD 1955-60. I knew that he was still around a few years ago as I went to GD for the open day when they published the history of the school when it celebrated 100 years at City Road (The school had previously been in Bridge St and Oozells St) and Sandy was credited for his work in the compilation of the history.
Aidan
master brummie
So my guess would be William Church marries Sophia Corse in Vermont on 08/12/1808 they have a daughter and son (who he latterly lives with). She dies or separates pre-1840 (possible around 1820 when William comes to UK), he then marries or otherwise shacks-up with Mary Ann (Surname) pre-1841, where she is captured in 1841C, but she dies Jun 1849 (12 years to Obit and William alone in 1851C). Elizabeth Willioughby marriage seems superfluous and unlikely to be connected
S
Seabird
Guest
Wouldn't it be great to find some living Church descendants. Keep up the good work young Skywalker!
Thylacine
master brummie
[I arose this cold Tassie winter morning to discover that the BSB classroom has been graced with a visit from the elusive Seabird! Welcome back!]
What I called the "joke" picture of the Verbiest steamer (post #538) comes from Jacques Martin's excellent collection of pictures entitled "L'histoire de l'Automobile des origines à 1900" (just click through using his "right arrow" button). The text is in French, but Google Translate does a reasonable (if amusing) job. There are many "old favorites" and "new favorites" there! The site is also clearly a tribute to the great Belgian animation artist Georges Prosper Remi (1907-1983), better know by his pen name "Hergé", the creator of "Tintin".
What I called the "joke" picture of the Verbiest steamer (post #538) comes from Jacques Martin's excellent collection of pictures entitled "L'histoire de l'Automobile des origines à 1900" (just click through using his "right arrow" button). The text is in French, but Google Translate does a reasonable (if amusing
) job. There are many "old favorites" and "new favorites" there! The site is also clearly a tribute to the great Belgian animation artist Georges Prosper Remi (1907-1983), better know by his pen name "Hergé", the creator of "Tintin".
Thylacine
master brummie
[Indeed, Molesworth! 
Our classmate Mécanicien-Michel has posted a couple of pictures of Bollée steam buses. Here's some information on this remarkable automotive family.]
Ernest-Sylvain Bollée (19 July 1814 - 1891) was a bellfounder and inventor, who established himself in business at Le Mans in 1842. In the 1860s he became seriously ill, and delegated the running of the company to his sons: Amédée-Ernest (10 January 1844 - 19 January 1917) took over the bell foundry; Ernest-Jules (1846-1922) the hydraulic ram business; Auguste-Sylvain (1847-1906) the Éolienne Bollée wind turbine factory.
Amédée-Ernest Bollée built a number of steam buses in the 1870s and 1880s: "L'Obéissante (The Obedient)" in 1872-1873; "La Mancelle" in 1878; "La Marie-Anne" in 1879; "La Nouvelle" in 1881; "La Rapide" in 1881, which travelled as fast as 58 kph (about 35 mph).
Amédée-Ernest's sons Amédée-Ernest-Marie (30 January 1867 - 13 December 1926) and Léon-Auguste-Antoine (2 April 1870 - 19 December 1913) were both builders of steam cars.
Our classmate Mécanicien-Michel has posted a couple of pictures of Bollée steam buses. Here's some information on this remarkable automotive family.]Ernest-Sylvain Bollée (19 July 1814 - 1891) was a bellfounder and inventor, who established himself in business at Le Mans in 1842. In the 1860s he became seriously ill, and delegated the running of the company to his sons: Amédée-Ernest (10 January 1844 - 19 January 1917) took over the bell foundry; Ernest-Jules (1846-1922) the hydraulic ram business; Auguste-Sylvain (1847-1906) the Éolienne Bollée wind turbine factory.
Amédée-Ernest Bollée built a number of steam buses in the 1870s and 1880s: "L'Obéissante (The Obedient)" in 1872-1873; "La Mancelle" in 1878; "La Marie-Anne" in 1879; "La Nouvelle" in 1881; "La Rapide" in 1881, which travelled as fast as 58 kph (about 35 mph).
Amédée-Ernest's sons Amédée-Ernest-Marie (30 January 1867 - 13 December 1926) and Léon-Auguste-Antoine (2 April 1870 - 19 December 1913) were both builders of steam cars.
Aidan
master brummie
Are you, like me, wondering about the comparitive power of steambuses and the correct SI Unit (or Système International d'unités as we seem to be in a French mood) to use? (!)
Measures that sprang to (my) mind include ergs per second (erg/s), horsepower (hp), metric horsepower, Pferdestärke (PS) or the wonderful cheval vapeur (CV) - the French always seem to add that extra touch of romanticism don't they?
Be careful if you think of using Horsepower. 1) because it means different things depending on context 2) Because with the implementation of the EU Directive 80/181/EEC on January 1, 2010, the use of horsepower in the EU is only permitted as supplementary unit. I don't know how but that last one had slipped under my radar, and I suppose we should rejoice in knowing that we should now use the watt after the Steam and Lunar Society luminary James Watt (1736-1819) who lived in "Heathfield" in Handsworth, Birmingham. But it doesn't have that Je ne sais quoi somehow...
post scriptum - I wonder why the Xerox didn't become known as the Watt?
Measures that sprang to (my) mind include ergs per second (erg/s), horsepower (hp), metric horsepower, Pferdestärke (PS) or the wonderful cheval vapeur (CV) - the French always seem to add that extra touch of romanticism don't they?
Be careful if you think of using Horsepower. 1) because it means different things depending on context 2) Because with the implementation of the EU Directive 80/181/EEC on January 1, 2010, the use of horsepower in the EU is only permitted as supplementary unit. I don't know how but that last one had slipped under my radar, and I suppose we should rejoice in knowing that we should now use the watt after the Steam and Lunar Society luminary James Watt (1736-1819) who lived in "Heathfield" in Handsworth, Birmingham. But it doesn't have that Je ne sais quoi somehow...
post scriptum - I wonder why the Xerox didn't become known as the Watt?
Thylacine
master brummie
Molesworth, thanks for that Watt vignette! I always thought the horsepower was a dodgy unit, when two real horses could out-perform a 5 hp motor bus! So it's Europe-approved SI watts for me from now on! The great JW quite rightly joined that select band of British scientists and innovators after whom SI units are named: Faraday, Kelvin, Newton, Watt (who else?). Since he lived and worked in Brum, we'll forgive him for discouraging William Murdoch from experimenting with steam carriages (and frightening vicars!). Did you notice the red Tardis parked behind the Watt statue in Leeds? Hmm ... (Singing ... "So rise the steam and come along ..." :1311
Hmm ... (Singing ... "So rise the steam and come along ..." :1311
Aidan
master brummie
Molesworth, thanks for that Watt vignette! I always thought the horsepower was a dodgy unit, when two real horses could out-perform 5 hp motor bus! So it's Europe-approved SI watts for me from now on! ....Did you notice the red Tardis parked behind the Watt statue in Leeds?
Ah, but horsepower does not cover peak load - According to Wapedia, R. D. Stevenson and R. J. Wassersug published an article in Nature 364, 195-195 (15 July 1993) calculating the upper limit to an animal's power output. The peak power over a few seconds has been measured to be as high as 14.9 hp. However, Stevenson and Wassersug observe that for sustained activity, a work rate of about 1 hp per horse is consistent with agricultural advice from both 19th and 20th century sources. Useful for getting up steep hills without reversing!
Perhaps the good doctor is now on a similar mission to us in travelling back in time and congratulating historical inventors! :MusicTuba: