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ANN STREET CITY CENTRE
- Thread starter Astoness
- Start date
hi charlie...funny you should mention that..the mail i am looking at right now dated 1995 has a big article about chamberlain and the slum clearance including a map...if you can give me a few mins while i post something else i will scan it for you if you like...
lyn
lyn
just found this pic of ann st...it must have been taken before 1874 when the street was knocked down to make way for the council house...the building on the right is christ church and i didnt know this but it was the buriel place of the printer john baskerville...the church was demolished in 1899
lyn
lyn
john knight
signman
Lyn the building in the first photograph is not the town hall, it's the wrong shape, too tall, and wrong position.
Itook this the last time I was in Brum.
Itook this the last time I was in Brum.
john knight
signman
Lyn, it's definately a building, I've been trying to ascertain which one, but no luck so far.
Aidan
master brummie
I am wondering if one of the two buildings above the parchment are a stylised representation of the Panorama on New Street (thread at https://forum.birminghamhistory.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31354 )? The date of 1808 is right (Panorama building was there from 1804-late 1820s when it was incorporated into the RSA). If the spire is St Philips, then the tall building to the right may be one of the surrounding buildings on Temple Row. The second though initially does look like a conical kiln but I think there is a hint of a circular base at the bottom and I think could be trying to represent the conical roof of the panorama. What do you think?
leslam
Brummie by marriage
Aidan, when I first read your response, I was sure that you spot on - and you may still be. However, I have had another thought and spotted something else on the picture on the business card in #31. There appears to be some sort of crane/lifting device with 'people' below it. Could we be looking the other way - out of the back of the building and so could it be St Paul's church? If so, could the crane thing be the wharf between Gt Charles St and Lionel Street? The 1795 map has an Amphitheatre marked on Livery Street and "Steam Mills" is marked on Water Street. Heptinstalls (later Heptinstalls and Lawledge) was in Ann Street from 1789.
Aidan
master brummie
Hi Leslam - thanks very much, I am not sure we can prove this 100% either way and I have set out my case on the Panorama thread so won't try to replicate here.
What you suggest is certainly possible. However, my opinion is that the spire in the engraving appears to me have a domed roof held up by pillars or spandrels. St Paul's is a beautiful building with a pointy spire. The approach to the church area in the engraving looks to my eyes to be slightly uphill across fields. I think St Pauls would be downhill from Ann St and would probably be fairly built upon by this date. The crane/winch and the conical-roofed building in the engraving are in the immediate foreground, and although I think the suggestion of an Amphitheatre in Livery St is a genius idea, both it and the Wharves must be 1/2mile or more away from Ann St.
For me, the winch indicates that the room is a upper garret type room, St Philips is the only domed church I can think of in the area held up by spandrels, it was flanked at this stage with houses on Temple Row West and there were open fields between them and Ann St in 1821 (see Lines Painting which also explains why due to lease restrictions). The Panorama at the top of New St would be just across the Rd from the position of the Manufactory, but as New St slopes down then you would only see the conical roof and a glimpse of the supporting rotunda from the top Room of a building on the ridge of Ann St. For these reasons (and more on the other thread) I think the inscription is wrong - perhaps that alternative view could be seen out of another unshown window?
What you suggest is certainly possible. However, my opinion is that the spire in the engraving appears to me have a domed roof held up by pillars or spandrels. St Paul's is a beautiful building with a pointy spire. The approach to the church area in the engraving looks to my eyes to be slightly uphill across fields. I think St Pauls would be downhill from Ann St and would probably be fairly built upon by this date. The crane/winch and the conical-roofed building in the engraving are in the immediate foreground, and although I think the suggestion of an Amphitheatre in Livery St is a genius idea, both it and the Wharves must be 1/2mile or more away from Ann St.
For me, the winch indicates that the room is a upper garret type room, St Philips is the only domed church I can think of in the area held up by spandrels, it was flanked at this stage with houses on Temple Row West and there were open fields between them and Ann St in 1821 (see Lines Painting which also explains why due to lease restrictions). The Panorama at the top of New St would be just across the Rd from the position of the Manufactory, but as New St slopes down then you would only see the conical roof and a glimpse of the supporting rotunda from the top Room of a building on the ridge of Ann St. For these reasons (and more on the other thread) I think the inscription is wrong - perhaps that alternative view could be seen out of another unshown window?
E
Elizabeth Redmond
Guest
amazing pictures love them
There were all kinds of buildings behind those facing on to Ann Street and there appears to be a kiln of some sort outside of the grind wheel room which appears to be elevated as Mike points out. The elevation of this room was possibly due to the gearing neccessary from the water wheel (if indeed it was) which would have been below. There would not have been much of a head of water so it would have been a brest shot wheel at best. It looks like a view of St Phillips in the distance perhaps and buildings on Temple Row West possibly. The dates don't seem to jell with the Lines painting though which was 1820 was it not and not much development at that time; still, possibly enough.
I have wondered where the water for the wheel came from also and have not thought that there was any pond or pool or leat feed in that area but the included map posted by Mike which has been on here before...shows a pool to the north of what would be Colmore Row...in a field seemingly by itself. It must have had a feed from somewhere or was it an excavation to catch rain water for cattle. The map is from way before this thread.
It appears that the old Priory that was on the site of the Old Square owned land as far as Congreve Street and I have seen a ref to a 'Phillipe's Pole'...a pool...belonging to the Priory and was probably for fish for the Monks table...no fish market in those days or fast trains. These pools were also used as a power source but this one would have modest capability perhaps which may account for not having any reference of a mill there...that I have seen anyway...a good research project. A simple grindstone would not require much power though and a small leat would probably suffice. The Google E. elevations indicate that water from the Edgebaston area could have been used. The streams have all dissappeared now. A flow of fresh water would have been required for fish stock in the pool. Maybe the overflow simply ran down the hill where Newhall Street would be.
Anyway the map shows an indication of run off streams below the top of New Street. So maybe industry used the old water supply to power the Grindstone and revesed the flow to run down hill via field ditches to the Bull Ring and Manor House area. Fish pools were quite common in medieval times apparently.
I have wondered where the water for the wheel came from also and have not thought that there was any pond or pool or leat feed in that area but the included map posted by Mike which has been on here before...shows a pool to the north of what would be Colmore Row...in a field seemingly by itself. It must have had a feed from somewhere or was it an excavation to catch rain water for cattle. The map is from way before this thread.
It appears that the old Priory that was on the site of the Old Square owned land as far as Congreve Street and I have seen a ref to a 'Phillipe's Pole'...a pool...belonging to the Priory and was probably for fish for the Monks table...no fish market in those days or fast trains. These pools were also used as a power source but this one would have modest capability perhaps which may account for not having any reference of a mill there...that I have seen anyway...a good research project. A simple grindstone would not require much power though and a small leat would probably suffice. The Google E. elevations indicate that water from the Edgebaston area could have been used. The streams have all dissappeared now. A flow of fresh water would have been required for fish stock in the pool. Maybe the overflow simply ran down the hill where Newhall Street would be.
Anyway the map shows an indication of run off streams below the top of New Street. So maybe industry used the old water supply to power the Grindstone and revesed the flow to run down hill via field ditches to the Bull Ring and Manor House area. Fish pools were quite common in medieval times apparently.
Aidan
master brummie
Rupert - As I said, an engraving of the view through a window of an advert for a Manufactory from the early 1800s is likely to be indeterminate, I just think the clues point in one direction eg I believe the buildings in that corner of St Philips are contemporary with the building and I think the larger of them was the Rectors house (see Westley's print of the precinct that I shared on the Panorama thread).
I think the idea of the pool along Colmore Row being a fish pool connected with the Priory sounds highly likely (wish I'd thought of it!). I understand that most Priories and Abbeys of the time had large well managed fish pools due to the necessity to eat Fish on Fridays as a minimum. However, it is the position I cannot understand as If St Philips is (later) the highest point on the ridge, is it not all (literally) downhill from there (somewhere between The Grand and Snow Hill) and therefore an unlikely place for pools and streams?
I think the idea of the pool along Colmore Row being a fish pool connected with the Priory sounds highly likely (wish I'd thought of it!). I understand that most Priories and Abbeys of the time had large well managed fish pools due to the necessity to eat Fish on Fridays as a minimum. However, it is the position I cannot understand as If St Philips is (later) the highest point on the ridge, is it not all (literally) downhill from there (somewhere between The Grand and Snow Hill) and therefore an unlikely place for pools and streams?
Not towards Edgebaston from there. Trace it with your mouse on Google E and observe the elevation at the bottom. I think there were a couple of minor streams from that area and the leat would have been running on a ridge. How far they would have had to dig is not known. Sandles are not good for digging. If the pool on the map and reference to 'Phillippes Pole' are factual then digging in that direction must have occured to produce a freshwater pool. A run-off down the hill where Newhall Street would eventually be, a century or so later, would give the Priory enterprise a head for a water wheel to do something with. It's possible that fish farming was more important to them then. The map seems to show a stream run-off below New Street. It's a classical leat and pool example but on a minor power scale.
Later of course there was no need for the fish...even if the Monks had been around. Flyboats and then steam trains could bring reasonably fresh sea fish to market. There would be no return to cooked bream and roach after that. The map and the reference are the only things that we have to go on that I can find so far...oh and the grindstone.
Later of course there was no need for the fish...even if the Monks had been around. Flyboats and then steam trains could bring reasonably fresh sea fish to market. There would be no return to cooked bream and roach after that. The map and the reference are the only things that we have to go on that I can find so far...oh and the grindstone.
The 1553 map seems to be too accurate for the year. It is a modern representation of older material as can be seen from the words on it...I don't know, without modern surveying technique or even that in captain Cooks time, hard to believe. It could not have been made in 1553. Not to say that the information is bogus but the documents that the information came from would be prefferable to see.
On looking at the (copy of) the original, it states that it is from "The survey of birmingham in 1553" edited by Bickery & Hill, and is stated as "drawn from various old palns & private surveys from information contained in th surveys of Henry VIII and Queen Mary and from other authorititive surveys" Joseph Hill lived 1835-1914, and the map is mostly based on info from the Crown survey of 1553
Mike
Mike
Aidan
master brummie
Dunno if this helps but the pool is shown on Westley's 1731 map, tho possibly filled in as not named as such - the fine detail is too big to upload, but you can download it here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Birmingham_-_Westley_Map_1731.png - The orientation means that West is at the top and Ann Street was then called New Hall Lane
leslam
Brummie by marriage
Going back to the file manufactory for just a minute, I thought I had posted the follwoing yesterday, but I obviously fogot to click 'Post' or something!
I agree that the image out of the window is likely to be a composite to represent the things that are visible, rather than a 'real view' and that we probably can't say exactly what the buildings are. However, I came across a couple of things yesterday that made me look at the 'view' again - the attached picture of the Canal Offices (taken from Chris Upton's History of Birmingham) and also a 'brick kiln' marked on the 1834 map (in History in Maps) in the area that is now Gas Street (i.e. 'behind the canal offices'. The canal offices does look remarkably like the building in the 'view'. What would the brick kilns have looked like?
I agree that the image out of the window is likely to be a composite to represent the things that are visible, rather than a 'real view' and that we probably can't say exactly what the buildings are. However, I came across a couple of things yesterday that made me look at the 'view' again - the attached picture of the Canal Offices (taken from Chris Upton's History of Birmingham) and also a 'brick kiln' marked on the 1834 map (in History in Maps) in the area that is now Gas Street (i.e. 'behind the canal offices'. The canal offices does look remarkably like the building in the 'view'. What would the brick kilns have looked like?
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Aidans 1731 map shows the pool with a berm around one side; which is what we would expect...that side being the down hill side. What the tail represents is intrigueing. It seems from Mike that the 1553 map is based on reliable material. First sighting here of this pool for me and also the first sighting of The New Hall albeit ever so small. It also has it's own fish pool seemingly. I was thinking that ditches surrounding fields...maybe dug to do so, would also carry any stream water and perhaps parts of the ditch system would also have been the original stream bed. Maybe this would have explained the weird shape of some fields.
Anyway it seems fairly safe to say that there was a supply of water on hand for a grindstone. Perhaps polution from growing industry had an effect on the demise of the pools for fish.
Which way the view through the open door looks is open to question...I subscribe to the view being towards St Phillips though. The canal offices were smallish. If this building was set back from Ann Street, then the kiln/furnace could have been in a yard. Parhps molten metal was produced to pour into moulds to make files...or heat treatment of blades. The jybe could be outside the building for moving moulds and cupulas about for this kind of process. It would be a factory without forklifts.
Anyway it seems fairly safe to say that there was a supply of water on hand for a grindstone. Perhaps polution from growing industry had an effect on the demise of the pools for fish.
Which way the view through the open door looks is open to question...I subscribe to the view being towards St Phillips though. The canal offices were smallish. If this building was set back from Ann Street, then the kiln/furnace could have been in a yard. Parhps molten metal was produced to pour into moulds to make files...or heat treatment of blades. The jybe could be outside the building for moving moulds and cupulas about for this kind of process. It would be a factory without forklifts.
Aidan
master brummie
Bin pondering on the Pool some more. Of it's existence there can be little doubt. Its position among all the steep inclines is not natural and I agree must have been formed by the Monks for a fish pool. Apart from the improbable inclines is the terroir issue. I think the ridge is limestone which is permeable. Therefore the Monks must have lined it (I imagine with puddled clay like the canals - must of been a considerable job. The 1731 Map doesn't name it as even a pool so I am wondering if it had drained by then as there were no Monks to maintain it (and perhaps climatic conditions of which I know little at that time). The permeable limestone would have meant an underground source though likely a fair distance down. Not sure of the possibility of a natural spring near the top but a ditch stream feeding the pond (planned or otherwise) is certainly a possibility (and would help the farms and orchards around)
Temple Row leads directly from the old Priory/Square around the cherry orchard to the pool. Must have been a path trod frequently in olden times and sandled feet. Not sure how much farming would have been done here...the soil was not great for this activity, I read, but must have been good enough for the kitchens garden. I wonder how this Row got it's name...Temple. Does this signify anything. Could there have been some sort of temple at the pool...maybe there was a small cascade of water contrived there and cerimonial services or something.
DavidGrain
master brummie
Anywhere with Temple in its name usually means that it was land owned in medieval times by the Knights Templar as in Temple Balsall near Balsall Common in Warwickshire. The Priory now part of Queensway was a monastical institution but whether it had any connection with the Templars, I do not know.
Interesting, David. Never knew that. With respect to the pool; I see that Priory Brook ran in an easterly direction not far North of Colmore Row and possibly was leated to there from further upstream. It would have run from the Edgebaston area. Quite a long run for a leat but not unusual in the Birmingham area and the downhill, north of Colmore, would have given a decent head for a wheel if the water volume was worth it. The last point may be why no reference can be found about a mill here and since the pool was also a private entity belonging to a forcibly dissolved order; then perhaps it could easily have been forgotten.
If the engraving and annotation of the grindstone in the file making plant is correct though, perhaps this leat was used again for just this one application which would only have needed a relatively small supply of water possibly.
If the engraving and annotation of the grindstone in the file making plant is correct though, perhaps this leat was used again for just this one application which would only have needed a relatively small supply of water possibly.