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Webb Thomas , attorney (died 1824)

Hello

Im currently researching into women in science, Ive got a talk on 10 August on the impact of the lunar society and womens education. Ive come across Jane Loudon as shes the amalgamation of women breaking down some of the barriers. I am interested in her work as a botanist and really theres not much out there. I would recommend Ann Shtier whose a professor of gender studies in Canada as shes done quite a bit but there should be more as shes incredible Lisa if you want to email me please do and I will send you what Ive done so far. Her life is sad though penniless three times, forced to write and then husband loses all his money, then she gets dropped from her editors role and has to beg for a pension.
Sara, thanks -- I would need your email, however! Also you may like to connect with Andy Sawyer of the Science Fiction Foundation -- Andy and I have been exchanging emails, sharing research into the life, times, and family background of Jane Wells Webb Loudon. I never know if it is OK to post email addresses on internet forums or not, but I guess I had better not!
 
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Can I now introduce another person of interest regarding Jane Loudon? He is Henry Noel Humphreys (born Birmingham 4 January 1810; died London 10 June 1879), an "artist and designer". Among many other activities, he was the illustrator of Jane's Flower garden series of Books (1839 - 1848).

More importantly (to quote an obituary in "The Garden", vol. 15: 14 June 1879, p 486-487) he was "friendly with the Loudons and related to them by marriage". Humphreys had written five articles in "The Garden" (June 29 to Dec 21, 1872) entitled "Recollections of John Claudius Loudon". In the first of these pieces (June 29, 1872 page 697) he says "I had not the privilege of knowing Mr. Loudon till the later party of his career, but after his marriage (with a family connection of my mother's) I saw him constantly..."

Henry Noel Humphreys' mother was Dorothea Anne Knowles (born 1781, Birmingham; died 1866, London), who married Henry Noel's father James Humphreys (born 1775; died 1833) in 1804.

Howard Leathlean, writer of several articles about Henry Noel Humphreys, says (in "The Private Library", fifth series, volume 3, part 3, page 113): "The hand-coloured, lithographed floral portraits in Knowles and Westcott's Floral Cabinet, 1837-1840, seemed to exemplify everything that he sought. But Humphreys may have disingenuously reviewed a publication with which he was associated. One of the editors, George Beauchamp Knowles, was Humphrey's uncle." Thus Dorothea Anne was the sister of George Beauchamp Knowles (born 1780; died 1870). There is information on-line about George Beauchamp Knowles, who was a surgeon and professor of botany at Birmingham School of Medicine 1829-1852.

Note- on the subject of name recycling- that one of Henry Noel Humphreys' children was called George Beauchamp Humphreys; George Beauchamp Knowles' own son was also called George Beauchamp Knowles! (he died June 1859, aged 39).

What I have not been able to establish, however, is the relationship between Jane Webb / Loudon and the Knowles family. [It is very unlikely that the connection was with J. C. Loudon himself, since Loudon was born and brought up in Scotland.]
 
Sara, thanks -- I would need your email, however! Also you may like to connect with Andy Sawyer of the Science Fiction Foundation -- Andy and I have been exchanging emails, sharing research into the life, times, and family background of Jane Wells Webb Loudon. I never know if it is OK to post email addresses on internet forums or not, but I guess I will take the risk: [email protected]
We do not recommend posting email addresses as it does open the possibility of them being harvested for scamming and spam, but it is up to you. We would suggest using the "conversation " facility (envelope symbol at the top right of the page), which enables private conversations between members
 
Further to the marriage between George Swinson and Mary Webb. The 2 witnesses are Henry York Webb and Frances Warren.

Not sure about Henry York Webb but Frances Warren could be her sister.

Again returning to Bromsgrove (post #27) Thomas and Hannah also had a daughter Frances b1760 and there is a marriage for a Frances Webb to a Thomas Warren, 7 Jul 1785 St Martin's.
 
Can I now introduce another person of interest regarding Jane Loudon? He is Henry Noel Humphreys (born Birmingham 4 January 1810; died London 10 June 1879), an "artist and designer". Among many other activities, he was the illustrator of Jane's Flower garden series of Books (1839 - 1848).

A couple of observations.

It appears that Henry Noel Humphreys was born a little earlier, he was baptised 26 Aug 1807.

His mother was possibly Ann Knowles, she is listed as such on Henry's baptism and her marriage to James Humphreys.

She appears to be the daughter of Guy Knowles and Dorothy Holland (baptism is elusive), George Beauchamp Knowles was their son. So, she may have been Dorothy Ann and known as Ann not to confuse with her mother.

The problem with connecting the Knowles to Jane is that Jane's mother is still unknown and it could be through her rather than the Webbs that is the connection.
 
Henry Noel Humphreys also illustrates that a slight discrepancy with ages is not always something to worry about.

He was baptised 1807 and despite being well educated his birth year is listed at times as 1810, 1812 and 1813.
 
MWS, thanks for the further info. including the Harriet Swinson link and the name of Dorothy Holland. As you say, the link to Swinson may be through Jane's mother.

Howard Leathlean (Thesis; University of Reading, 1989: H.N.H. The Work of Henry Noel Humphreys) agrees with 1807 as his birth (my date came from Ray Desmond's "Dictionary of British & Irish Botanists, which is usually pretty reliable; that date is also quoted in the DNB). As MWS mentions, there were a range of dates given in various obituaries, etc, but the one given in "The Garden", which is likely to be accurate since William Robinson (the writer and proprietor) knew HNH, is 1807. Leathlean includes some family details, gleaned from a memoir dictated by HNH's son, Noel Algernon Humphreys and also a journal kept by the same. Quotes below are from Leathlean's Thesis.

HNH's grandfather was George Humphreys, who "lived at Sparkbrook and was a member of the Lunar Society".
I have since discovered, from contemporary newspaper reports, that George Humphreys was a "Protestant Dissenter", and nominated to be on the committee of the district of Warwickshire (along with Wm. Russel, Joseph Priestley, John Ryland, William Hutton and others). (Derby Mercury, 21 January 1790, page 3). In the "Priestley Riots" of 1791, George Humphreys' house was ransacked, but not burned down. (Various newspapers, late July 1791). He was partially compensated for the damage in 1792. (Norfolk Chronicle, 14 April 1792, page 2).

George Humphreys' son (HNH's father) was James Humphreys, who "had the reputation of being a spendthrift and unwary investor. He is believed to have become involved in an expensive lawsuit in Belgium. He was there at the time of the Battle of Waterloo ... James Humphreys' profligacy or recklessness most likely prompted his wife, Dorothea Ann Knowles, to found the Ravenhurst School for Girls at Sparkbrook so as to supplement the family income. She was the daughter of Guy Knowles, a Birmingham doctor, and the sister of George Beauchamp Knowles..."
Leathlean also mentions a pamphlet "Humphreys on Manures" published by Longmans c.1844 by "J. D, Humphreys" (this based on info gleaned from the Longman archives). "On 6 June 1859 the remaining 137 copies [of an edition of 250] were written off. Superadded to J.D. Humphreys's name is a concise statement of finality: "dead"." Leathlean gives additional details as to why this J. D. Humphreys is likely to be HNH's father. I have not traced any copies of the pamphlet (yet) nor have I discovered anything in newspapers relating to Humphreys- nor the pamphlet! Ravenhurst School for Girls is also elusive.

Another snippet of information about HNH's family is "This print may be one of the series to which young Noel [i.e. Noel Algernon] referred to in his journal on 30 May 1852: "In the afternoon Aunt Harriet showed me some drawings that Papa had made when he was a little boy..."." So there is a Harriet in the family, presumably sister of Henry Noel Humphreys or of his wife, Dorothea Ann.
 
Guy and Dorothy Knowles had a daughter Harriet, baptised 14 Jan 1788 St Phillip's. She never married and died in 1853.

She is with her brother George in 1841 and 1851.
 
Further to the marriage between George Swinson and Mary Webb. The 2 witnesses are Henry York Webb and Frances Warren.

Not sure about Henry York Webb but Frances Warren could be her sister.

Again returning to Bromsgrove (post #27) Thomas and Hannah also had a daughter Frances b1760 and there is a marriage for a Frances Webb to a Thomas Warren, 7 Jul 1785 St Martin's.
OK, I searched on the name "Henry York Webb" and found him in newspapers from 1790s-- middle name given as Yorke. He was in partnership with Richard Walford of Birmingham & they were Brewers & Dealers in Porter. (Were bankrupt in 1790, but then allowed certificates in 1791) Then I found a notice published 2 March 1789:
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So.....though my first thought was "this can't be the same family; Jane's father was an attorney" -- then I realized that of course, this could be-- must be-- the FATHER of Henry Yorke Webb. And very likely the father of Mary Webb who married George Swinson. Plus, as for Frances Warren -- knowing that Thomas Webb (the attorney who died in 1824) had a nephew named Thomas Warren (named in his Will) -- if she is the sister of Mary and of Thomas -- that birth in Bromsgrove now seems more likely than I'd thought. There could be reasons why his baptism took place two years after his birth -- or that he was misinformed about the year and was just a little bit younger than he'd come to believe. Thank you for all this fantastic research and help!!
 
I mentioned previously that there was a family tree that suggested that Thomas was born in Bromsgrove.

There is a baptism for a Thomas in Bromsgrove 2 Dec 1752, son of Thomas & Hannah (Spilsbury).

And there is also a baptism for a Mary in Bromsgrove 20 Jan 1765, daughter of Thomas & Hannah.

Both non-conformist.
You are indeed the Master Brummie and I bow to your skills and withdraw my earlier disbelief that this could be the Thomas I'd been looking for.:oops:
 
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It was only the information provided by yourself, Brian and everyone else that confirmed the possibility of the Bromsgrove birth to be correct.

There is a lot of information on family trees that turns out to be wrong.
 
Hello

Im currently researching into women in science, Ive got a talk on 10 August on the impact of the lunar society and womens education. Ive come across Jane Loudon as shes the amalgamation of women breaking down some of the barriers. I am interested in her work as a botanist and really theres not much out there. I would recommend Ann Shtier whose a professor of gender studies in Canada as shes done quite a bit but there should be more as shes incredible Lisa if you want to email me please do and I will send you what Ive done so far. Her life is sad though penniless three times, forced to write and then husband loses all his money, then she gets dropped from her editors role and has to beg for a pension.
Sara, would love to know more about your work -- I am giving a short presentation on JWL at the Current research In Speculative Fictions conference on 1st July, based on work the late Nickieanne Moody and I had been doing. (Nickieanne organised the first (and only?) conference on JWL's work a few years ago. )
 
So.....though my first thought was "this can't be the same family; Jane's father was an attorney" -- then I realized that of course, this could be-- must be-- the FATHER of Henry Yorke Webb. And very likely the father of Mary Webb who married George Swinson. Plus, as for Frances Warren -- knowing that Thomas Webb (the attorney who died in 1824) had a nephew named Thomas Warren (named in his Will) -- if she is the sister of Mary and of Thomas -- that birth in Bromsgrove now seems more likely than I'd thought. There could be reasons why his baptism took place two years after his birth -- or that he was misinformed about the year and was just a little bit younger than he'd come to believe. Thank you for all this fantastic research and help!!
Baptism a period after birth could be something to do with being/having been a nonconformist . There could well be a wave of entry/confirmation into the Church of England at that time -- I'm not a good enough historian to understand this, but this happens with the Swinson family
 

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If they were non conformists then Jane's father would have been brought up in the tradition of women writers such as Patricia Wakefield (Aunt of Elizabeth Fry) and Maria Jacson. It was common for them to be encouraged to gain an education especially in the natural world.
 
A couple more small points re Henry Noel Humphreys (posts 32 & 38). He wrote 6 articles on Loudon for "The Garden" (not 5, as I erroneously reported).
I have tracked down "Humphreys on Manures", which is in fact "Practical Hints to practical men, on New and Old Manures, with an explanation of the author's discovery of the governing principles of vegetable growth" (published 1844), by John Doddridge Humphreys (grandson of the hymn writer Rev. Philip Doddridge) and thus not HNH's father, James Humphreys. Probably "no relation".
 
So.....though my first thought was "this can't be the same family; Jane's father was an attorney" -- then I realized that of course, this could be-- must be-- the FATHER of Henry Yorke Webb. And very likely the father of Mary Webb who married George Swinson. Plus, as for Frances Warren -- knowing that Thomas Webb (the attorney who died in 1824) had a nephew named Thomas Warren (named in his Will) -- if she is the sister of Mary and of Thomas -- that birth in Bromsgrove now seems more likely than I'd thought. There could be reasons why his baptism took place two years after his birth -- or that he was misinformed about the year and was just a little bit younger than he'd come to believe. Thank you for all this fantastic research and help!!
Hi Lisa I've just come across all yours and others interesting posts about Thomas Webb and his daughter Jane. I have just joined the forum. I too have been trying to trace Janes mother with little success. Sara was correct in that the family were very strong non conformists' am related to Thomas Webbs father also called Thomas Webb who is my ggggg grandfather -So Thomas Webb the attorney is my gggguncle. Thomas had the following siblings Elizabeth Webb b1762 -1833 ( my direct grand mother ) ,John Webb b1755-1756,Henry Yorke Webb 1804 - 1879 ,Frances Webb 1760-1829 married Thomas Warren ,Mary Webb b1765 who married George Swinson .
There are various family letters confirming these and the dates. Are you also related?
Jane Louden Webb was incredibly ahead of her time and clearly very resourceful - !I haven't been able to find the marriage certificate of her father which is frustrating.
regards Brigette
 
Hi Lisa I've just come across all yours and others interesting posts about Thomas Webb and his daughter Jane. I have just joined the forum. I too have been trying to trace Janes mother with little success. Sara was correct in that the family were very strong non conformists' am related to Thomas Webbs father also called Thomas Webb who is my ggggg grandfather -So Thomas Webb the attorney is my gggguncle. Thomas had the following siblings Elizabeth Webb b1762 -1833 ( my direct grand mother ) ,John Webb b1755-1756,Henry Yorke Webb 1804 - 1879 ,Frances Webb 1760-1829 married Thomas Warren ,Mary Webb b1765 who married George Swinson .
There are various family letters confirming these and the dates. Are you also related?
Jane Louden Webb was incredibly ahead of her time and clearly very resourceful - !I haven't been able to find the marriage certificate of her father which is frustrating.
regards Brigette
How exciting to hear from you! No, I'm no relation, just interested in Jane Wells Webb Loudon. I have found her mother -- but so far it is very difficult to confirm her family. I will message you.
 
How exciting to hear from you! No, I'm no relation, just interested in Jane Wells Webb Loudon. I have found her mother -- Jane Heydon, the daughter of Thomas Heydon of Northwick, who married Thomas Webb, attorney, in Coventry, 28 April 1786. I have been struggling to confirm that I've got the right Thomas Heydon as her father....there was a Thomas Heydon who was the Steward of the Northwick Estate (owned by Sir John Rushforth) but he died, age 50, in 1777 so could not have been her father -- but maybe her grandfather? There was a Thomas Heydon an attorney born about 1770 (thus perhaps her brother) who was an attorney in Warwick (among other positions held) but I can't find out much about his father. I have tried to send you a message but no luck yet.
 
Hi Lisa I've just come across all yours and others interesting posts about Thomas Webb and his daughter Jane. I have just joined the forum. I too have been trying to trace Janes mother with little success. Sara was correct in that the family were very strong non conformists' am related to Thomas Webbs father also called Thomas Webb who is my ggggg grandfather -So Thomas Webb the attorney is my gggguncle. Thomas had the following siblings Elizabeth Webb b1762 -1833 ( my direct grand mother ) ,John Webb b1755-1756,Henry Yorke Webb 1804 - 1879 ,Frances Webb 1760-1829 married Thomas Warren ,Mary Webb b1765 who married George Swinson .
There are various family letters confirming these and the dates. Are you also related?
Jane Louden Webb was incredibly ahead of her time and clearly very resourceful - !I haven't been able to find the marriage certificate of her father which is frustrating.
regards Brigette
Hi Brigitte, good to "meet" you and good that the picture is becoming clearer. Have you come across anything related to the Harriet Swinson who was Mary and George's daughter.. ( she died between 1819 and 1824, it seems). Do your family records contain any reference to "Wells"? ( Jane Webb Loudon was christened Jane Wells Webb). There is so much misinformation in the published record, but it's becoming clearer the more people delve into things.
 
How exciting to hear from you! No, I'm no relation, just interested in Jane Wells Webb Loudon. I have found her mother -- Jane Heydon, the daughter of Thomas Heydon of Northwick, who married Thomas Webb, attorney, in Coventry, 28 April 1786. I have been struggling to confirm that I've got the right Thomas Heydon as her father....there was a Thomas Heydon who was the Steward of the Northwick Estate (owned by Sir John Rushforth) but he died, age 50, in 1777 so could not have been her father -- but maybe her grandfather? There was a Thomas Heydon an attorney born about 1770 (thus perhaps her brother) who was an attorney in Warwick (among other positions held) but I can't find out much about his father. I have tried to send you a message but no luck yet.

Not saying he is but why couldn't the Thomas Heydon who died in 1777 be Jane's father. If she married in 1786 then she must have been born before 1766, well before his death.

Also on their marriage in Coventry, she is listed as Jane Davis alias Heydon. Does that mean anything?

I see she is listed as Jane Heydon on her son's baptism though.
 
Hi Brigitte, good to "meet" you and good that the picture is becoming clearer. Have you come across anything related to the Harriet Swinson who was Mary and George's daughter.. ( she died between 1819 and 1824, it seems). Do your family records contain any reference to "Wells"? ( Jane Webb Loudon was christened Jane Wells Webb). There is so much misinformation in the published record, but it's becoming clearer the more people delve into things.
Hi Andy - good to meet you too .I have Harriet Swinson baptised 27 Jan 1791 but nothing further. Did you find any info on her death ?She was the sister of Thomas Webb (attorney)
There is reference to Harriet et all, in letters and confusingly it must refer to the next generation down Harriet Swinson and her siblings b1832-1898 who was the grand daughter of Mary Webb as above (b 1765 )and George Swinson (1763-1849) .
Harriets parents were George Newton Swinson b1789-1865 and Mary Anne Morgan b1803-1893 .
Its confusing the use of the same name over the generations. Apparently the 'Newton' in the name refers to Isaac Newton who is a distant relative. This was mentioned in a letter from the late 1800s .( Cant find any connection so far!)
No i have no info regarding Wells. It seems strange that Jane Louden didn't reference her mother at all in any of her fathers obituaries. In addition as the family were clearly surgeons etc and all quite well off you would have thought that Jane might go to live with one of her Aunties?
 
Hello Brigette

Lovely to say hello. Isaac Newton wow as a relative. Im probably related very distantly to Jane Austen but its very distant. Are the Swinsons a Gloucestershire or Worcestershire family ? Are you on ancestry ?

Im looking at Jane as a botanist and her connections to East Midlands

Thanks

Sara
 
Hi Brigitte, good to "meet" you and good that the picture is becoming clearer. Have you come across anything related to the Harriet Swinson who was Mary and George's daughter.. ( she died between 1819 and 1824, it seems). Do your family records contain any reference to "Wells"? ( Jane Webb Loudon was christened Jane Wells Webb). There is so much misinformation in the published record, but it's becoming clearer the more people delve into things.

How exciting to hear from you! No, I'm no relation, just interested in Jane Wells Webb Loudon. I have found her mother -- but so far it is very difficult to confirm her family. I will message you.
Hi Lisa - Great to meet you and fantastic to find some kindred spirits on the Jane Webb case! I've checked out her mother Jane Davis/heydon .The only thing is that i would have thought there would be a member of the family as a witness.When Thomas Webb's sister married 2 of her siblings were witnesses. Having said that Thomas was the eldest of the siblings.
On the marriage certificate (james higgins the witness seems to be the witness for a number of other entries on those pages )I . Its frustrating we cant find any more details !
 
Hello Brigette

Lovely to say hello. Isaac Newton wow as a relative. Im probably related very distantly to Jane Austen but its very distant. Are the Swinsons a Gloucestershire or Worcestershire family ? Are you on ancestry ?

Im looking at Jane as a botanist and her connections to East Midlands

Thanks

Sara
Hi there - The Swinson family appear to be from Croxton Staffordshire and they definitely produced 3 generations of surgeons. I was fascinated with the BBC programme on Birmingham 'The Biggest Dig'= digging a grave yard to make way for HS2 as around the corner was the hospital and it appears that Cadavers were probably used from the grave yard to practise on ! I guess that in the 1780s when George Swinson was practising it was pretty basic in those days ! So Mary Webbs uncle and cousin could have provided interesting background for 'The Mummy' . I'm not sure where here green fingers came from though.
Best Brigette
 
Hi Lisa - Great to meet you and fantastic to find some kindred spirits on the Jane Webb case! I've checked out her mother Jane Davis/heydon .The only thing is that i would have thought there would be a member of the family as a witness.When Thomas Webb's sister married 2 of her siblings were witnesses. Having said that Thomas was the eldest of the siblings.
On the marriage certificate (james higgins the witness seems to be the witness for a number of other entries on those pages )I . Its frustrating we cant find any more details !
The fact that there were no family witnesses plus the evidence that she was using a false name (Davis) inclines me to think they had eloped. I bet her parents did not want her to marry Thomas Webb. But without knowing her age, impossible be sure if she was under 21 (and would have needed their permission) OR if she was of age, but had to elope because they disapproved and would have done anything they could to stop her. I would guess that James Higgins had some job at the church (Sexton?) and was often called for that duty.
 
Not saying he is but why couldn't the Thomas Heydon who died in 1777 be Jane's father. If she married in 1786 then she must have been born before 1766, well before his death.

Also on their marriage in Coventry, she is listed as Jane Davis alias Heydon. Does that mean anything?

I see she is listed as Jane Heydon on her son's baptism though.
Jane Heydon's father was still alive when she got married in 1786. There was a newspaper announcement of the marriage published a few weeks after it happened (this means that even if Jane had eloped and got married without permission - which she would have needed if she was not yet 21 - that her parents had accepted the marriage was valid. A marriage by licence required parental permission for those under 21, but it could be granted retrospectively!) The newspaper notice names her father as "Thomas Heydon of Northwick." You have the baptismal record?? Do you have one for Jane? (I have sought in vain!) Were they two sons who died before Jane Wells Webb was born?
 
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Not saying he is but why couldn't the Thomas Heydon who died in 1777 be Jane's father. If she married in 1786 then she must have been born before 1766, well before his death.

Also on their marriage in Coventry, she is listed as Jane Davis alias Heydon. Does that mean anything?

I see she is listed as Jane Heydon on her son's baptism though.
The marriage record really should have read "Jane Heydon alias Davis" but she misunderstood....her real name was Heydon, but she must have been giving her name as "Miss Davis" until the time came for the official documents to be signed - a marriage under a false name would not have been valid. It's a sign of an elopement - very romantic.
 
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