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Webb Thomas , attorney (died 1824)

There is a thread entitled John Claudius Loudon by Dennis…
 
Jane Webb's first book, a slim volume, privately published in 1824, was Prose and Verse. Unlike The Mummy! which she chose to have published anonymously (not so unusual then--even Walter Scott, known as a poet, did that with his first novels), she put her name to it, and there was even an advertisement that gave her address -- let me see if I can add it here: 1623080346269.png
 
...even though they misspelled the name of her house, she was clearly identified with it from then on! I assume that because this had been given as her own and her father's address, later writers made the assumption that it was the old family estate and she was born there.
 
I have just come across your postings regarding Jane Wells Webb. It so happens that I have covered some of the same ground while researching the background of John Claudius Loudon. You may be familiar with the book: "Lady with Green Fingers. The Life of Jane Loudon" by Bea Howe (Country Life, 1961) Howe states (page 13): "I have constructed the first years of Jane Loudon's life, when she was a girl living at Kitwell House, from the autobiographical material which is embedded, so discretely, in her books." She also thanks Miles Hadfield (the garden historian) "himself a Jane Loudon fan" for providing local material which he had collected. The book has two photos of Kitwell House, taken when derelict, in 1951, ""demolished to make room for the erection of a vast secondary modern school."

According to Howe, after the death of Jane's mother in 1819, Thomas Webb "took his daughter abroad for a year's travel on the Continent. ... On leaving Southampton, she cut off a lock of her hair and sent it, with some suitable line of verse, to her much-loved cousin, Harriet Swinson. [see below] For a year the Webbs, father and daughter, toured Europe, sight-seeing , and improving Jane's education by the study of German, French and Italian. On their return to Birmingham, Mr. Webb, facing heavy business losses, decided to turn his back on city life and retire to Kitwell House ... outside Bartley Green. He had bought Kitwell House soon after Jane's birth, but it had been let for some years. Now it was empty again." The house contents were sold in late 1824 (Aris's Birmingham Gazette: Monday 25 October 1824: advertisement on page 2; Monday 8 November 1824: advertisement on page 2; Monday 15 November 1824, advertisement on page 2 (repeated Monday 22 November, page 2. These ads give some detail about the property as well as its contents.)

I think it was Howe (page 26) who started the oft-repeated story about Thomas Webb of Birmingham: "Little has been recorded of him except that he was a well-to-do business man living in easy circumstances." Sarah Dewis, in "The Loudons and the Gardening Press" (Ashgate publishing, 2014), refers to him as "a prominent Birmingham businessman and engineer." The ODNB article on Jane Loudon, by Ann B Shteir also mentions Thomas Webb as a businessman- and says that Jane was born at "Ritwell House". As you have found out Thomas was, in fact, a well-to-do attorney!

I have been unable to find anything about Jane's mother, however. Was her name surname Wells, perhaps?

The brief mention by Howe of cousin Harriet Swinson got me onto this site, since there is some relevant info about her. Family search says that she was born 5 September 1831 at Bordesley; her father's name was George Newton Swinson (born 1789) and her mother's name was Mary Ann Swinson. George Newton Swinson was a surgeon [who confusingly also had a son (thus a brother of Harriet ) of the same name- this younger George Newton Swinson was born April 1833 as Bordesley, later moving to Ashwell and finally Australia.] The possible Jane Webb connection is that the older George Newton Swinson's father (called simply George Swinson) had a wife called Mary Webb. Was she related to Thomas? [England, Warwickshire Parish Registers: Marriage. George Swinson, age 24, residence St Martin and Mary Webb, age 21, residence Northfield. 10 January 1788. Marriage place Worcester.] So far I have not been able to tie Mary Webb to Thomas Webb.
 
I'm a little confused, if Harriet Swinson was born in 1831, then how can Jane have sent her a lock of hair in 1819?

Elder George Newton Swinson had a sister Harriet (b1791).
 
I mentioned previously that there was a family tree that suggested that Thomas was born in Bromsgrove.

There is a baptism for a Thomas in Bromsgrove 2 Dec 1752, son of Thomas & Hannah (Spilsbury).

And there is also a baptism for a Mary in Bromsgrove 20 Jan 1765, daughter of Thomas & Hannah.

Both non-conformist.
 
I think 1752 is too late for Thomas Webb who was Jane's father, unless she is wrong to have given his age as 74 when he died in September 1824, and his birthday as 20 November. So....he should have been born in November 1749, and baptised if not in that same year then in early 1750. I suggest that family tree has hit upon the wrong Thomas. (There were quite a few of them about).

There seems to be evidence that Jane's mother was also called Jane, and died in 1809. (Memorialized in St Paul's)

I have also wondered if her mother's maiden name was Wells....but there could be other reasons why she had that name.

Thank you Brian D! Although the birthdate you give for Harriet Swinson does suggest it must have been an earlier Harriet who was friends with Jane. (Why do people insist on naming their children after themselves? It makes it so difficult for researchers, centuries later!) Northfield is the parish where Kitwell House was. I've found a reference in Aris's of 10 May 1830 : "Married at Trinity Church, Mary-le-Bone, Mr G.N. Swinson, surgeon, to Miss Morgan of Fitzroy Square."
 
Hello

Im currently researching into women in science, Ive got a talk on 10 August on the impact of the lunar society and womens education. Ive come across Jane Loudon as shes the amalgamation of women breaking down some of the barriers. I am interested in her work as a botanist and really theres not much out there. I would recommend Ann Shtier whose a professor of gender studies in Canada as shes done quite a bit but there should be more as shes incredible Lisa if you want to email me please do and I will send you what Ive done so far. Her life is sad though penniless three times, forced to write and then husband loses all his money, then she gets dropped from her editors role and has to beg for a pension.
 
Sorry for the confusion! Thank you, MWS, for pointing out the discrepancy between Jane sending the hair in 1819 and Harriet Swinson being born in 1831. (Even with slower mail delivery then....) I'm afraid I was so chuffed at locating Harriet Swinson, I did not notice the anomaly.
Almost certainly, it must be the older Harriet (b. 1791) [Can you give me the source of this information, please, MWS?], sister of George Newton Swinson the elder, who was Jane's cousin. This would also make sense, since this Harriet's father was George Swinson, who married Mary Webb on 10th January 1788 in Worcester (according to Warwickshire Parish Registers, 1535-1963) He was aged 24 (thus born in 1764; he was baptised in October of that year) and she was aged 21 (thus almost certainly born in 1867). If Jane's father Thomas Webb was Mary Webb's brother, that would indeed make Jane and Harriet cousins. I have found a Mary Webb who was christened on 26 January 1767 (just within the right dates) at St. Michael, Coventry, Warwickshire. Her mother's name was also Mary Webb, but there are no other details.
George (aged 76) and Mary (aged 75) Swinson also appear (with son Henry (aged 42) and ?servant Ann Williams (aged 32)) on the 1841 census.
I can only echo Lisa T's complaint about families recycling names! (P.S. My father's name was Robert, and my son's name is Matthew: future researchers, take note!)
 
Hello

Im currently researching into women in science, Ive got a talk on 10 August on the impact of the lunar society and womens education. Ive come across Jane Loudon as shes the amalgamation of women breaking down some of the barriers. I am interested in her work as a botanist and really theres not much out there. I would recommend Ann Shtier whose a professor of gender studies in Canada as shes done quite a bit but there should be more as shes incredible Lisa if you want to email me please do and I will send you what Ive done so far. Her life is sad though penniless three times, forced to write and then husband loses all his money, then she gets dropped from her editors role and has to beg for a pension.
Sara, thanks -- I would need your email, however! Also you may like to connect with Andy Sawyer of the Science Fiction Foundation -- Andy and I have been exchanging emails, sharing research into the life, times, and family background of Jane Wells Webb Loudon. I never know if it is OK to post email addresses on internet forums or not, but I guess I had better not!
 
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Can I now introduce another person of interest regarding Jane Loudon? He is Henry Noel Humphreys (born Birmingham 4 January 1810; died London 10 June 1879), an "artist and designer". Among many other activities, he was the illustrator of Jane's Flower garden series of Books (1839 - 1848).

More importantly (to quote an obituary in "The Garden", vol. 15: 14 June 1879, p 486-487) he was "friendly with the Loudons and related to them by marriage". Humphreys had written five articles in "The Garden" (June 29 to Dec 21, 1872) entitled "Recollections of John Claudius Loudon". In the first of these pieces (June 29, 1872 page 697) he says "I had not the privilege of knowing Mr. Loudon till the later party of his career, but after his marriage (with a family connection of my mother's) I saw him constantly..."

Henry Noel Humphreys' mother was Dorothea Anne Knowles (born 1781, Birmingham; died 1866, London), who married Henry Noel's father James Humphreys (born 1775; died 1833) in 1804.

Howard Leathlean, writer of several articles about Henry Noel Humphreys, says (in "The Private Library", fifth series, volume 3, part 3, page 113): "The hand-coloured, lithographed floral portraits in Knowles and Westcott's Floral Cabinet, 1837-1840, seemed to exemplify everything that he sought. But Humphreys may have disingenuously reviewed a publication with which he was associated. One of the editors, George Beauchamp Knowles, was Humphrey's uncle." Thus Dorothea Anne was the sister of George Beauchamp Knowles (born 1780; died 1870). There is information on-line about George Beauchamp Knowles, who was a surgeon and professor of botany at Birmingham School of Medicine 1829-1852.

Note- on the subject of name recycling- that one of Henry Noel Humphreys' children was called George Beauchamp Humphreys; George Beauchamp Knowles' own son was also called George Beauchamp Knowles! (he died June 1859, aged 39).

What I have not been able to establish, however, is the relationship between Jane Webb / Loudon and the Knowles family. [It is very unlikely that the connection was with J. C. Loudon himself, since Loudon was born and brought up in Scotland.]
 
Sara, thanks -- I would need your email, however! Also you may like to connect with Andy Sawyer of the Science Fiction Foundation -- Andy and I have been exchanging emails, sharing research into the life, times, and family background of Jane Wells Webb Loudon. I never know if it is OK to post email addresses on internet forums or not, but I guess I will take the risk: [email protected]
We do not recommend posting email addresses as it does open the possibility of them being harvested for scamming and spam, but it is up to you. We would suggest using the "conversation " facility (envelope symbol at the top right of the page), which enables private conversations between members
 
Further to the marriage between George Swinson and Mary Webb. The 2 witnesses are Henry York Webb and Frances Warren.

Not sure about Henry York Webb but Frances Warren could be her sister.

Again returning to Bromsgrove (post #27) Thomas and Hannah also had a daughter Frances b1760 and there is a marriage for a Frances Webb to a Thomas Warren, 7 Jul 1785 St Martin's.
 
Can I now introduce another person of interest regarding Jane Loudon? He is Henry Noel Humphreys (born Birmingham 4 January 1810; died London 10 June 1879), an "artist and designer". Among many other activities, he was the illustrator of Jane's Flower garden series of Books (1839 - 1848).

A couple of observations.

It appears that Henry Noel Humphreys was born a little earlier, he was baptised 26 Aug 1807.

His mother was possibly Ann Knowles, she is listed as such on Henry's baptism and her marriage to James Humphreys.

She appears to be the daughter of Guy Knowles and Dorothy Holland (baptism is elusive), George Beauchamp Knowles was their son. So, she may have been Dorothy Ann and known as Ann not to confuse with her mother.

The problem with connecting the Knowles to Jane is that Jane's mother is still unknown and it could be through her rather than the Webbs that is the connection.
 
Henry Noel Humphreys also illustrates that a slight discrepancy with ages is not always something to worry about.

He was baptised 1807 and despite being well educated his birth year is listed at times as 1810, 1812 and 1813.
 
MWS, thanks for the further info. including the Harriet Swinson link and the name of Dorothy Holland. As you say, the link to Swinson may be through Jane's mother.

Howard Leathlean (Thesis; University of Reading, 1989: H.N.H. The Work of Henry Noel Humphreys) agrees with 1807 as his birth (my date came from Ray Desmond's "Dictionary of British & Irish Botanists, which is usually pretty reliable; that date is also quoted in the DNB). As MWS mentions, there were a range of dates given in various obituaries, etc, but the one given in "The Garden", which is likely to be accurate since William Robinson (the writer and proprietor) knew HNH, is 1807. Leathlean includes some family details, gleaned from a memoir dictated by HNH's son, Noel Algernon Humphreys and also a journal kept by the same. Quotes below are from Leathlean's Thesis.

HNH's grandfather was George Humphreys, who "lived at Sparkbrook and was a member of the Lunar Society".
I have since discovered, from contemporary newspaper reports, that George Humphreys was a "Protestant Dissenter", and nominated to be on the committee of the district of Warwickshire (along with Wm. Russel, Joseph Priestley, John Ryland, William Hutton and others). (Derby Mercury, 21 January 1790, page 3). In the "Priestley Riots" of 1791, George Humphreys' house was ransacked, but not burned down. (Various newspapers, late July 1791). He was partially compensated for the damage in 1792. (Norfolk Chronicle, 14 April 1792, page 2).

George Humphreys' son (HNH's father) was James Humphreys, who "had the reputation of being a spendthrift and unwary investor. He is believed to have become involved in an expensive lawsuit in Belgium. He was there at the time of the Battle of Waterloo ... James Humphreys' profligacy or recklessness most likely prompted his wife, Dorothea Ann Knowles, to found the Ravenhurst School for Girls at Sparkbrook so as to supplement the family income. She was the daughter of Guy Knowles, a Birmingham doctor, and the sister of George Beauchamp Knowles..."
Leathlean also mentions a pamphlet "Humphreys on Manures" published by Longmans c.1844 by "J. D, Humphreys" (this based on info gleaned from the Longman archives). "On 6 June 1859 the remaining 137 copies [of an edition of 250] were written off. Superadded to J.D. Humphreys's name is a concise statement of finality: "dead"." Leathlean gives additional details as to why this J. D. Humphreys is likely to be HNH's father. I have not traced any copies of the pamphlet (yet) nor have I discovered anything in newspapers relating to Humphreys- nor the pamphlet! Ravenhurst School for Girls is also elusive.

Another snippet of information about HNH's family is "This print may be one of the series to which young Noel [i.e. Noel Algernon] referred to in his journal on 30 May 1852: "In the afternoon Aunt Harriet showed me some drawings that Papa had made when he was a little boy..."." So there is a Harriet in the family, presumably sister of Henry Noel Humphreys or of his wife, Dorothea Ann.
 
Guy and Dorothy Knowles had a daughter Harriet, baptised 14 Jan 1788 St Phillip's. She never married and died in 1853.

She is with her brother George in 1841 and 1851.
 
Further to the marriage between George Swinson and Mary Webb. The 2 witnesses are Henry York Webb and Frances Warren.

Not sure about Henry York Webb but Frances Warren could be her sister.

Again returning to Bromsgrove (post #27) Thomas and Hannah also had a daughter Frances b1760 and there is a marriage for a Frances Webb to a Thomas Warren, 7 Jul 1785 St Martin's.
OK, I searched on the name "Henry York Webb" and found him in newspapers from 1790s-- middle name given as Yorke. He was in partnership with Richard Walford of Birmingham & they were Brewers & Dealers in Porter. (Were bankrupt in 1790, but then allowed certificates in 1791) Then I found a notice published 2 March 1789:
1624697446709.png
 
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