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Temple Row
- Thread starter historicaldennis
- Start date
That's tragic Lyn. But how skillfully it was all put back together. Looks like the decision could have so easily been made to demolish the whole thing. Viv.
Have just found an interesting photo site i hadn't come across before on imperial war museum site with old ministry of information war photographs. Below is The Old Nelson on corner of Temple row after bomb damage. The birmingham photos are at https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/listing/object-205013489?items_per_page=50&filter%5BplaceString%5D%5B0%5D=%22Birmingham%2C%20Warwickshire%2C%20England%2C%20UK%22
mike
mike
Have just found an interesting photo site i hadn't come across before on imperial war museum site with old ministry of information war photographs. Below is The Old Nelson on corner of Temple row after bomb damage. The birmingham photos are at https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/listing/object-205013489?items_per_page=50&filter[placeString][0]="Birmingham%2C Warwickshire%2C England%2C UK"
mike
Thanks for that link Mike - it's an excellent site. The photos fill in a lot of gaps in the history of Bimingham buildings. Brings home the devastation of the 2nd WW. Here's a pre-war photo of Ye Old Nelson in 1925. Viv
The Caretaker at this time as you say was Jimmy Gunn , and his assistant for some of that time was Albert Sword my father . I spent many a happy shift messing around in the boiler house, I even spent half hour talking to Mr Nicholson of Bell and Nicholson fame Eagle Star was a large employer in the city at that time .
H
harborne
Guest
P.S. What was a/the Kardomah?
Chris
Chris
paul stacey
master brummie
A posh cafe!!!!
paul
paul
DavidGrain
master brummie
Have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardomah_Cafés
This Wikipedia site says there were Kardomahs oposite Snow Hill Station and in New Street but I am sure there was one in Corporation Street as well.
Jayell
master brummie
There was one Kardomah Cafe opposite Snow Hill Station by the side of the Great Western Arcade. The other was in New Street, on the corner of Cannon Street or Needless Alley I think - The Kardomah was a coffee house and meeting place long before the days of Costa Coffee and the likes! I remember just a very large room filled with tables and chairs where you could sit with with your coffee for hours talking to friends, and you would always see someone you knew in there in the late 50s/early 60s.
Judy
Judy
This blue plaque marks the site of William Sands Cox's Medical School in 1825. It's located near Rackhams and the NW Arcade.
HI DENNIS
Cherry street was apparently taken from from a map of 1750 and took its name
from Walker,s cherry Orchard which lay between temple row, bull st; and high st ; new st; and needless alley ;
at the end of the eighteenth century it was still a large and fruitful orchard which was a favourite spot;
hence temple street ; astonian ;
Cherry street was apparently taken from from a map of 1750 and took its name
from Walker,s cherry Orchard which lay between temple row, bull st; and high st ; new st; and needless alley ;
at the end of the eighteenth century it was still a large and fruitful orchard which was a favourite spot;
hence temple street ; astonian ;
This is a nice 1858 drawing from the London Illustrated News showing Temple Row. The churchyard looks like it's bulging with headstones and makes it look bigger. The drawing appeared in the ILN commemorating the Queen's visit to Birmingham. Hopefully you'll be able to enlarge the picture. Viv.
Hi Shortie. That's a lot of burials. Wonder what happened to many of the headstones. I seem to remember only a few in the churchyard, but could be wrong. Viv.
Shortie
master brummie
Viv, parts of the south and eastern sides were closed in 1848, portions of the ground taken in 1900 to widen Temple Row and Colmore Row, so it's so long ago that probably no record exists. You also have to remember that many people would have been fairly poor, so no headstones for those. I am sure they just got chucked away, which always leaves me speechless, but it happened very often. In 1910 it was laid out as a garden so most would have been removed then, I suspect. I doubt the headstones were transferred to some safe place, but it would be so nice to find it actually happened!
Thanks Shortie. Yes I remember it was more like gardens around the cathedral. Such a pity if the headstones have gone, all that history gone with them. Viv.
Shortie
master brummie
It's the same now, Viv, mainly lawn with the odd headstone. I used to sit there in the 1960's eating sandwiches with my friend at lunch time, and then in the later 1980's I worked facing the cathedral, so used to walk through the grounds often. Since then they have replaced the railings, although not the original style, but it looks OK.
This is a drawing of a dinner at Dee's Hotel on Temple Row to celebrate the passing of the Patent Law Amendment Act (from the London Illustrated News 1852). This assembly room looks pretty grand inside and here's a description from Pye in 1818 to give us a taster:
"It has an elegant entrance through a capacious saloon, at the extremity of which there is a noble flight of stairs, leading to an elegant and spacious assembly room, in length, including the orchestra, wherein there is a handsome and fine-toned organ, eighty feet, and in breadth thirty-three feet. It is fitted up in a tasteful and decorative manner, with three rich cut-glass chandeliers, five lustres, and six large mirrors". Viv.
"It has an elegant entrance through a capacious saloon, at the extremity of which there is a noble flight of stairs, leading to an elegant and spacious assembly room, in length, including the orchestra, wherein there is a handsome and fine-toned organ, eighty feet, and in breadth thirty-three feet. It is fitted up in a tasteful and decorative manner, with three rich cut-glass chandeliers, five lustres, and six large mirrors". Viv.
BordesleyExile
master brummie
Based on that picture, Dees Hotel was quite the Tardis. I had no idea that the interior was so large, Viv. I do hope that the chandeliers were made in Birmingham.
Hi Bordesleyexile. Yes we'd certainly hope so. This seems to have been a highly respectable hotel patronised by royalty, Nelson and Dickens to name a few. And what a wonderful opportunity to showcase Birmingham products. I too hadn't realised how large this hotel was. Viv.
Wouldn't want to be the one cleaning up after functions on this scale Judy! Not sure if the lights hanging from the walls are chandeliers or 'lustres' (although the picture is 30+ years after Pye's description, so some things might have changed). It's good to see how striking the 'large mirrors' were and how vast the organ was too. Viv.
historicaldennis
knowlegable brummie
Well, my dear friends, I have at last managed to get back onto this thread, I have tried for ages to get back to you all, but for some reason I couldn't sign on, so imagine how pleased I am to be back on the thread, and what a job you have all done, fantastic, so much still being added to our history of Temple Row, thank you all so much .
You are right, expert brummie, I never thought I would learn so much from you all, its been a great trip back on memory lane and lovely to see Albert Swords son joining in, as Albert was with me for many years after I became the caretaker following my father Jimmy Gunn's death. Albert faithfully handled that old iron gated lift, which had to be driven by an attendant, and he always allowed me to operate the old lift when I was just a teenager, in there with me of course, just in case, and he stayed on with me as I settled back home again to become the caretaker. Just as a reminder Jim, my dad died in 1975, just 49 years old, so young to have a heart attack.There were 3 of us that ran Union Chambers at that time, Myself, Dennis, just 30 years old then, Albert, and George Starting, both in their 60's, and we all got on so well.Just to get back on course, you may all be pleased to note, that my wife, Veronica, and myself, returned to Birmingham in November 2012, to celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary, and we stayed in the Premier Inn hotel, just 100 yards away from Union Chambers, so that we were able to see our old home again, and when you think, my family were caretakers in Temple Row from 1949 until 1990 when I saddly had to leave Union Chambers because of redundancies.I was 16 years old when dad became caretaker, 1957, following the death of Mr Pitt. I met and courted my wife from here, Had our engagement party in Union Chambers,married from here in 1962, became the caretaker in 1972, celebrated our 25th anniversary in 1987 in Union Chambers, left in 1990, and now, returned home for our 50th, what a record ah !The whole purpose of starting this thread was to receive help and advice about the history of Temple Row, so that I could build up a history of my family line, and what help I have received, 240 replies just about this area alone, and I have now been able to fill in all these details onto my family tree video, and shown it to all my family members, we have such a fine record and reminder of our life in Temple Row, thank you all so much again. If you feel its not too boring listening to the history of the caretakers of Temple Row, I would love to add more details for you, at least some of you remembered our family,and there are so many memories about our stay in Temple Row, and having watched the area change so much over the years, it may help to keep this fine link going, we'll wait and see what you think.
You are right, expert brummie, I never thought I would learn so much from you all, its been a great trip back on memory lane and lovely to see Albert Swords son joining in, as Albert was with me for many years after I became the caretaker following my father Jimmy Gunn's death. Albert faithfully handled that old iron gated lift, which had to be driven by an attendant, and he always allowed me to operate the old lift when I was just a teenager, in there with me of course, just in case, and he stayed on with me as I settled back home again to become the caretaker. Just as a reminder Jim, my dad died in 1975, just 49 years old, so young to have a heart attack.There were 3 of us that ran Union Chambers at that time, Myself, Dennis, just 30 years old then, Albert, and George Starting, both in their 60's, and we all got on so well.Just to get back on course, you may all be pleased to note, that my wife, Veronica, and myself, returned to Birmingham in November 2012, to celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary, and we stayed in the Premier Inn hotel, just 100 yards away from Union Chambers, so that we were able to see our old home again, and when you think, my family were caretakers in Temple Row from 1949 until 1990 when I saddly had to leave Union Chambers because of redundancies.I was 16 years old when dad became caretaker, 1957, following the death of Mr Pitt. I met and courted my wife from here, Had our engagement party in Union Chambers,married from here in 1962, became the caretaker in 1972, celebrated our 25th anniversary in 1987 in Union Chambers, left in 1990, and now, returned home for our 50th, what a record ah !The whole purpose of starting this thread was to receive help and advice about the history of Temple Row, so that I could build up a history of my family line, and what help I have received, 240 replies just about this area alone, and I have now been able to fill in all these details onto my family tree video, and shown it to all my family members, we have such a fine record and reminder of our life in Temple Row, thank you all so much again. If you feel its not too boring listening to the history of the caretakers of Temple Row, I would love to add more details for you, at least some of you remembered our family,and there are so many memories about our stay in Temple Row, and having watched the area change so much over the years, it may help to keep this fine link going, we'll wait and see what you think.
historicaldennis
knowlegable brummie
Lets go back to the years of the second world war, and at this time, the caretaker of Union Chambers, on the corner of Temple Row and Needless alley, was a Mr Pitt, and part of his duty, and that of many of the tenants in the building, which then belonged to Eagle Star Insurance, was to be on "Fire Watch ". Union Chambers has a large flat roof area, which covers the whole of the building, and it has a retaining wall about 3 feet high, so quite safe to be up there, which the enclosed photo shows, and I dont suppose that many will know that Union Chambers was the highest building in Birmingham at that time, yes, higher than Lewis's store, and of course the Retunda has not yet been built, and from the roof area, you had a panoramic view over the city og Birmingham. In fact, to the west you could see as far as the Lickey hills, to the north and over St Phillips, you could just about see towards West Bromwich, although a more restricted view due to the buildings on Colmore Row, then eastward, on a clear day, you can see as far as Cannock Chase, and round to the south, you could see way over towards Coventry, with the Birmingham airport in the distant.
So as you note, Union Chambers gave a wonderful view for those on fire watch, thus an early warning signal could be given. This photo shows the building at the time the new owners, Leeds building society, were trying to sell the building in the late 1980's, my employers at that time, and although they did not manage to sell it until another 20 years had past bye, they still made myself and my staff of 18, redundant, which led to us moving down to Cornwall to live. The picture is there for you though to notice the retaining wall at the top of the photo, and my bedroom, when we moved in to become the caretakers, that is my father first of all, the bedroom was the last two windows you can see down Needless Alley.
There is a link further back on this thread you can click to see photos of some of the bomb damage done to Birmingham, and of course we have that recent photo of the damaged buildings on the corner of Temple Row and Bull St, with Rackhams on the opposite corner, then a photo of the damage down in the arcade, but beyond this,
nothing happened to Temple Row, so Union Chambers survived and remained an advantage point for "fire watching" throughtout the rest of the war.
So as you note, Union Chambers gave a wonderful view for those on fire watch, thus an early warning signal could be given. This photo shows the building at the time the new owners, Leeds building society, were trying to sell the building in the late 1980's, my employers at that time, and although they did not manage to sell it until another 20 years had past bye, they still made myself and my staff of 18, redundant, which led to us moving down to Cornwall to live. The picture is there for you though to notice the retaining wall at the top of the photo, and my bedroom, when we moved in to become the caretakers, that is my father first of all, the bedroom was the last two windows you can see down Needless Alley.
There is a link further back on this thread you can click to see photos of some of the bomb damage done to Birmingham, and of course we have that recent photo of the damaged buildings on the corner of Temple Row and Bull St, with Rackhams on the opposite corner, then a photo of the damage down in the arcade, but beyond this,
nothing happened to Temple Row, so Union Chambers survived and remained an advantage point for "fire watching" throughtout the rest of the war.
Attachments
historicaldennis
knowlegable brummie
After the war, early 1949, my grandfather William Williams, and his wife Olwen, became the caretaker of Temple Court, 55 Temple Row, 
which stood on the other corner of Needless alley, and I included this photo as there may be one or two alive today who remembers them, and will bring back a few memories for them.
Temple Court had its main entrance in Temple Row, right next door to the conservative club, marked on the map of the area a few links ago, there was a second but less used entrance right on the corner of Needless alley, and there was a rear entrance, but only for the brave, in Cannon Street, next door to the Bell and Nichols warehouse. This entrance was rarely used though, as there was no lift and it meant you had to walk up a very narrow, old wooden staircase to the third floor, thats 15 feet up to the ground floor, then three more flights of ten feet until you reached the exit on the third floor, and that was some climb believe me.
The main use for the rear entrance in Cannon St, was for the collection of waste, which my grandfather would sort out after the end of each day, when his cleaning staff would empty the waste baskets from each office into hessian sacks, then sorted out in our basement, so that re-cycling of paper and cardboard would be put to use, my grandfather William being paid for each sack collected each week, so if you thought that re-cycling is a modern day idea, this shows you that it was being done in the late 40's, and in fact well into the 60's. Of course, as a young lad of 9 0r 10 years of age, ( dont you dare laugh at the photo,)
I loved helping him to sort out these waste baskets, and checking out, each " find " and you never knew what might turn up, I think this was the start of my " hording of useless items " that has followed me all my life.
The good thing though was that we had an old 2 foot by 2 foot wooden lift to move the sacks down to the rear entrance, which worked on a rope and pulley system, oh the joys of long ago !
So far I have not been able to find any old photos of Cannon Street or of Bell and Nichols warehouse, so rack your brain and see if you can remember any photos for us on other threads.
which stood on the other corner of Needless alley, and I included this photo as there may be one or two alive today who remembers them, and will bring back a few memories for them.Temple Court had its main entrance in Temple Row, right next door to the conservative club, marked on the map of the area a few links ago, there was a second but less used entrance right on the corner of Needless alley, and there was a rear entrance, but only for the brave, in Cannon Street, next door to the Bell and Nichols warehouse. This entrance was rarely used though, as there was no lift and it meant you had to walk up a very narrow, old wooden staircase to the third floor, thats 15 feet up to the ground floor, then three more flights of ten feet until you reached the exit on the third floor, and that was some climb believe me.
The main use for the rear entrance in Cannon St, was for the collection of waste, which my grandfather would sort out after the end of each day, when his cleaning staff would empty the waste baskets from each office into hessian sacks, then sorted out in our basement, so that re-cycling of paper and cardboard would be put to use, my grandfather William being paid for each sack collected each week, so if you thought that re-cycling is a modern day idea, this shows you that it was being done in the late 40's, and in fact well into the 60's. Of course, as a young lad of 9 0r 10 years of age, ( dont you dare laugh at the photo,)
I loved helping him to sort out these waste baskets, and checking out, each " find " and you never knew what might turn up, I think this was the start of my " hording of useless items " that has followed me all my life.The good thing though was that we had an old 2 foot by 2 foot wooden lift to move the sacks down to the rear entrance, which worked on a rope and pulley system, oh the joys of long ago !
So far I have not been able to find any old photos of Cannon Street or of Bell and Nichols warehouse, so rack your brain and see if you can remember any photos for us on other threads.
historicaldennis
knowlegable brummie
1n 1956, my grandfather William, passed away, and was buried in the Yardley cemetary, and my father, Jimmy Gunn, took over as the caretaker of Temple Court, and so we moved in during the summer of 1956.
Jimmy and Ella Gunn
Looking at the above photo, Temple Court is the last dark building, in front of Union Chambers, and next door, nearer the centre of photo, stood the Conservative club, with the Portico clearly seen above the entrance,
and you would always see a commissionaire, in top hat and tails, standing at the top of the stairs, to welcome the club members. On occasions, my grandfather would take on that responsibility of doorman, and I kept his top hat until I left Brum in 1990. On a couple of occasions, (when the club was closed of course) he took me inside, and I could never work out what all the fuss was about, it was just a glorified jumble of table and chairs, with a posh excuse to have a quiet drink.
On the corner of Cherry Street, we had the Midland bank, and I was so proud when I opened my first account with them, having now left school, which we did at the Christmas break at that time in December in those days, and I started full time work, at the age of 15 and one month of age, at George the Grocer, opposite George Mason groceries, along the Mosely Road. I had been working there for two years as the delivery boy, on the old black bike with the large basket carrier at the front, but now, old enough to serve as a shop assistant.
The Midland bank would later be taken over by the bank of England on this spot, But the Midland bank company itself would be taken over by yet another foreign bank, HSBC, and we still have an account with HSBC 57 years later.
You have all mentioned a few shops along from Cherry St, but going the other way, do you remember the bread shop of Pattisons, on the corner of Temple Street ? so handy for 3 hungary young men, just 50 steps from our front door, what more could we ask for !
There are some great photos of the western arcade on page 14 of this forum, entry numbers 205 and 209, and the north entrance on page 13, number 184, which brought back memories.
Who cleaned these arcades ? Yes, you guesssed it, myself and my younger brother, Jimmy Gunn. Every Sunday morning, starting at 6.00am we would hand mop all the floor areas, starting in the Great Western arcade, up at the Snow hill end, mopping away and through to the Temple Row entrance, forever changing the dirty water, especially after a whole wet week of thousands of footprinks trampling along marbled floors.
Then already shattered, we would mop the western arcade, starting at the north end entrance in Temple Row, mop to the cross road junction, along to the left towards Lewis's, then back and cross over to mop towards Cherry St, then, continually changing water, mop on down to the Cooperation street entrance. Dash home, quick breakfast, then off to play football. Oh ! the strength of youth.
Jimmy and Ella GunnLooking at the above photo, Temple Court is the last dark building, in front of Union Chambers, and next door, nearer the centre of photo, stood the Conservative club, with the Portico clearly seen above the entrance,
and you would always see a commissionaire, in top hat and tails, standing at the top of the stairs, to welcome the club members. On occasions, my grandfather would take on that responsibility of doorman, and I kept his top hat until I left Brum in 1990. On a couple of occasions, (when the club was closed of course) he took me inside, and I could never work out what all the fuss was about, it was just a glorified jumble of table and chairs, with a posh excuse to have a quiet drink.
On the corner of Cherry Street, we had the Midland bank, and I was so proud when I opened my first account with them, having now left school, which we did at the Christmas break at that time in December in those days, and I started full time work, at the age of 15 and one month of age, at George the Grocer, opposite George Mason groceries, along the Mosely Road. I had been working there for two years as the delivery boy, on the old black bike with the large basket carrier at the front, but now, old enough to serve as a shop assistant.
The Midland bank would later be taken over by the bank of England on this spot, But the Midland bank company itself would be taken over by yet another foreign bank, HSBC, and we still have an account with HSBC 57 years later.
You have all mentioned a few shops along from Cherry St, but going the other way, do you remember the bread shop of Pattisons, on the corner of Temple Street ? so handy for 3 hungary young men, just 50 steps from our front door, what more could we ask for !
There are some great photos of the western arcade on page 14 of this forum, entry numbers 205 and 209, and the north entrance on page 13, number 184, which brought back memories.
Who cleaned these arcades ? Yes, you guesssed it, myself and my younger brother, Jimmy Gunn. Every Sunday morning, starting at 6.00am we would hand mop all the floor areas, starting in the Great Western arcade, up at the Snow hill end, mopping away and through to the Temple Row entrance, forever changing the dirty water, especially after a whole wet week of thousands of footprinks trampling along marbled floors.
Then already shattered, we would mop the western arcade, starting at the north end entrance in Temple Row, mop to the cross road junction, along to the left towards Lewis's, then back and cross over to mop towards Cherry St, then, continually changing water, mop on down to the Cooperation street entrance. Dash home, quick breakfast, then off to play football. Oh ! the strength of youth.
Historical Dennis. Have a look on this site as there are some photos of Cannon Street.
https://www.jlb2011.co.uk/iob/slides06/index.htm
https://www.jlb2011.co.uk/iob/slides06/index.htm
