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Temple Row

I think it is hardley likely that a dovecote would be confused as a temple and can't think that can be correct. The Minories under old Lewis's is in line with Temple Row and a similar lane is in London. If so it is more probable that there was a similar temple to the Minoress as in London hence the name Minories... the lane passing the same. The temple used as an early hospital ward maybe, with nuns acting as nurses. So if this is the case then the Row would lead on from this Temple.
So the present day Minories possibly is in the same place that the Temple was located...just west of the Priory...foundations for which were discovered when the old old Old Square was first built or so I have read.
I read on here that there was a Masonic Temple also on Temple Row and this may be another option but less likely maybe.
 
Rupert

The option I have linked to for Temple Row is only one of several that can be put forward, the same as the Minories probably comes from the word "minoress" which means Nun and would be related to the Priory that you mention.

Phil
 
Well, if Temple Row is not relating to a temple to the 'minoress'; then we have to re-write history. I don't see why London should have a whole temple for their Minories and row...and we have to make do with a bl..dy pigeon pen. We do not have to do any re-writeing though.
 
Rupert said:
I think it is hardley likely that a dovecote would be confused as a temple and can't think that can be correct. The Minories under old Lewis's is in line with Temple Row and a similar lane is in London. If so it is more probable that there was a similar temple to the Minoress as in London hence the name Minories... the lane passing the same. The temple used as an early hospital ward maybe, with nuns acting as nurses. So if this is the case then the Row would lead on from this Temple.
So the present day Minories possibly is in the same place that the Temple was located...just west of the Priory...foundations for which were discovered when the old old Old Square was first built or so I have read.
I read on here that there was a Masonic Temple also on Temple Row and this may be another option but less likely maybe.
Click to expand...

Am a bit puzzled with the statement that the Temple in London has anything to do with the Minories as they are on oposite sides of the City of London. The Temple in London was the home of the Knights Templar and the word Temple in a place name eg Temple Balsall in Warwickshire and Temple Meads in Bristol normally signifies that the land was formerly owned by the Templars. I don't know the significance in our Temple Row.
 
From Showells:

Temple Row.—A "parech meeting" in 1715 ordered the purchase of land for a passage way out of Bull Street to St. Philip's Church. It was not until 1842 when part of the Royal Hotel stables were taken down, that it was made its present width. In 1837 the churchyard had some pleasant walks along the sides, bounded by a low wooden fence, and skirted with trees.
Temple Street takes its name from the old summer arbour, wittily called "the Temple," which once stood in a garden where now Temple Row joins the street. An advertisement in Gazette of December 5, 1743, announced a house for sale, in Temple Street, having a garden twelve yards wide by fifty yards long, adjoining the fields, and with a prospect of four miles distance.

Maybe the pen was not far off after all. Hmm...no Temple to Minoresses then...What is a 'summer arbour' some kind of green house...?

A 'shaded rustic garden'...not too shabby.
 
arbour [ˈɑːbə]
n1. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Forestry) a leafy glade or bower shaded by trees, vines, shrubs, etc., esp when trained about a trellis
2. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Horticulture) Obsolete an orchard, garden, or lawn[C14 erber, from Old French herbier, from Latin herba grass]



Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

This is the dictionery definition but I think of it more as a summer house
 
TEMPLE ROW.
Well Viv, your question on what is the meaning of Temple Row has captured attention, but it looks as if we have no clear indication as to how it got its name, but if it did originate by the thought of it being connected to the Priory and the use as a hospital by the nuns, then that may be a possibility.
Mind you, that thought that the Knights Templers had a building on Temple Row is also a possibility, because they had these buildings as a sort of hospital and hostel for weary christian travellers, so this may also be a thought to keep in mind. The dovecote is another good idea, as the doves represented piece, and with a cathedral along Temple Row, it may well have refered to the dovecote.
However, what I would like you to think about, is that number 55 to 59 Temple Row, is a very long way away from the old Priory, and would the Knights Templers have built so close to a cathedral, and why was my home called TEMPLE COURT.
Does it mean that there actually was a temple here, and that may have stood on the very spot of Temple Court, or been laid as a courtyard for the benefit of those in the temple that stood on this very spot ?
The latest comments about the home and gardens on Temple Row is also interesting, but bear in mind that Temple Street, the suggested spot for this house and garden, is many yards from Needless alley, and that Temple Court was on the other side of Needless alley, so it would not be ruled out that another building, or even two, could have stood between this home and garden on the corner of Temple Row and Temple Street,
and that one of those buildings could have been a temple of some sort.
There's so many possibilities isn't there, but it would be nice to finally have an answer to Vivs question, on the meaning of Temple Row.
 
This section of a plan of Birmingham drawn up by William Westley in 1731, it shows St Philip's and Temple Row. William Westley is said the be the architect of Temple Row which was built on the Cherry Orchard which was thought to belong to St Thomas's Priory & Hospital.

I am posting this to point out what looks like some sort of a round building just to the left of Temple Row in what appears to be the remains of the orchard. Anybody got any ideas what it might be?

Phil

CityTempleRow.jpg
 
Phil said:
I am posting this to point out what looks like some sort of a round building just to the left of Temple Row in what appears to be the remains of the orchard. Anybody got any ideas what it might be?

Phil
Click to expand...

It looks like the "Doocot at St Andrews" picture under the heading Gallery, featured on the Dovecote page on Wikipedia
 
Rupert

Does that mean you think it was a Dovecote, because I always thought they were built to house pigeons & doves and the eggs & adult birds were a valuable food resource not the chicks.

Phil
 
A couple of extracts from Showells Dictionary of Birmingham


Temple Row.—A "parech meeting" in 1715 ordered the purchase of land for a passage way out of Bull Street to St. Philip's Church. It was not until 1842 when part of the Royal Hotel stables were taken down, that it was made its present width. In 1837 the churchyard had some pleasant walks along the sides, bounded by a low wooden fence, and skirted with trees.

Temple Street takes its name from the old summer arbour, wittily called "the Temple," which once stood in a garden where now Temple Row joins the street. An advertisement in Gazette of December 5, 1743,announced a house for sale, in Temple Street, having a garden twelve yards wide by fifty yards long, adjoining the fields, and with a prospect of four miles distance.
 
I bet that some of the present day churchyard pidgeons are descendents.

Which reminds me that I read that a flock of turkey vultures congregated at the Gettesburg battleground to feed off the large number of dead horses left behind after the battle. The descendents still live there they say.

The fish pool is on your map with it's narrow portion at the bottom. I wonder if the fish were driven into this end to be caught for the Priory table. There must have always been a lane/path from the Priory across what was to become St Philips...to the pool. Pidgeon eggs are pretty small and it is not like they lay every day or so like a hen. You can't catch them either...the ones that fly that is. Don't forget the rabit warren at the Congreve end. Imported French rabits they say.

Your last post was posted on #63.
 
TEMPLE ROW, AND NEEDLESS ALLEY
Brilliant comments on why Temple Row, but it looks as if a dovecote is going to win out for us, because that round building on the map is just about were Union Chambers stands, on one side of Needless alley, and the row of houses on the other side, top end of Cherry St, is were Temple Court stood, so maybe we are onto the correct answer for this.

Before Temple Court was pulled down, to make room eventually for the Pallisades, do you remember a bridge that ran over Needless alley ? It was at the top end of the alley, the cathedral end, and that was our bridge to carry us across from Temple Court and into Union Chambers. It was only to be used as a fire escape, and for the caretakers access to each building to keep an eye on things, but so handy, rather than having to cross over Needless alley by road, perhaps on a rainy day, but again it has proved hard to find any photos of the bridge, every photographer seems to have pointed his lens downhill so as to catch the atmosphere of that dark narrow alley.
I noticed that someone, in another thread, suggested that the name Needless, had something to do with needles, but I thought that perhaps it refered to the fact that when the alley was created, many felt it was needless, going nowhere, just an alley put there for no reason, so it became known as Needless alley.
I dont know, but if you know of any other idea, in other threads, or something you can add to why it was called Needless alley, it would I am sure be of interest to us all.
 
Try here from Bill Dargue History of Birmingham Street Names R - Z

Temple Row/ Temple Street B2
Laid out 1715 at the time St Philip’s was being built, these streets were named after the Temple, a late-17th-century wooden building on the future site of Temple Street; this was used by travelling bands of players and known as the Temple of Thespis (Thespis was an Ancient Greek playwright, hence the use of the term ‘thespians’ for actors. Temple Passage was made 1875.
Click to expand...

History of Birmingham Street Names M - Q

Needless Alley B2
Dating from the early 18th century the name is probably a corruption of ‘Needlers’ Alley’.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Viv,Temple Row West is still there.The sketch was made standing on the said street and Colmore Row.
The last building on the left is about where The Old Joint Stock is now.Moss
 
Right thanks Moss. Hadn't realised that's what that row was called, and after all the years I've trapsed along there!! Viv.
 
I too love these drawings. According to Victor Skipp "In 1726 the buildings of Temple Row were admiringly characterised as being as lofty and elegant and uniform as those of Bedford Row and inhabited by People of Fortune, who were great wholesale Dealers in the Manufactures of this Town". So I imagine it must have been a very good address. I've read somewhere else that the churchyard had lime tree walks around it too. Sounds absolutely delightful!!! Viv.
 
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Thank you for that old drawing viv, and as stated, it is the corner of Temple Row west and Colmore row, and just a few houses down would be were the royal hotel would have been when Lord N elson visited Birmingham, and stayed there, thats why later on in years they built ye old nelson pub, in memory of his visit.
 
Dennis the Royal was further away than that...down around the corner and along Temple Row proper past the church yard on the left and towards Bull Street. Pretty much oposite todays Great Western Passage. Yes, Nelson was a Brummie favorite person but suspect that he was in England generally. He re-paid the adoration in spades by winning the mastery of the seas which lasted for a hundred years. Pretty much nailing down the freedom of the oceans. Will try to find the picture Viv.
 
Thanks for that tip on the royal hotel, I really did feel it was on Temple row west, just about were the old joint stock building was, so if your advice is right, then I will have to change my history details about the hotel.
I know the old Copthorn hotel was down that end, as there is a photo on the thread showing it, so maybe the Royal hotel was there at one time.
Thanks again, and thanks to you all for your comments and pictures, it has all been a great help as I fill in details on my family history trail.
 
Seeing that photo of the old red post box, reminded me that on the corner of Temple Row and Needless alley, we had an old Queen Victorian post box, and it was still there a number of years ago, proberbly the only one left now, so I was wondering if any of you know if its still there ? If anyone passes it by one day, I wonder if a photo could be taken and posted on the thread, as that is real history for us.
 
For info, in Showell's Dictionary it says: "The Royal in Temple Row was created on the tontine principle of 1772 but was not called "The Hotel" for a long time afterwards, the word Royal being added in 1805 after His Royal Highness the Duke of Gloucester slept there (May 4) on his way to Liverpool. In 1830 the Duchess of Kent and Princess Victoria ( our present Queen) honoured it by their prescence."

So Showell's places the Royal Hotel in Temple Row but maybe this also included Temple Row West at the time. Viv
 
Vivienne14 said:
I'm posting this painting of the "View from St. Phillip's Dome" as I think it shows Temple Row West in the foreground, alongside the churchyard. Interesting to see it from this angle. Viv.
Click to expand...

I think I have seen this picture before. We can possibly date it from Christchurch on the right edge. Temple Row left bottom, Temple Row West right bottom. Also that round building which we think is a dovecot.
 
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