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Midland Red Early Days

Best wishes for the house move, Latrobe looks a beautiful place - but hurry back - I do welcome your bright light shining in those 'dark corners of Midland Red history', revealing details I had thought long lost to enthusiasts and historians. And plan that visit to the UK and Wythall, visit Midand Red's survivors from extinction (including me!)
 
Hi all - I see this is the thread for expertise on early Midland Red so hoping you can steer me right as I have very little knowledge (please excuse if any of the questions sound silly). I would like some info about my Great-Grand Uncle, Joseph/Christopher Surman, I am told worked for Midland Red in the early days of last century.

In the 1901 Census he is 20 and shown as a Bus Conductor living in lodgings in Yardley with another conductor and a visitor who was a "Horsekeeper in the Bus Yard".
In the 1911 Census he describes himself as a "General Carter" back liviing with his siblings, which seems a bit strange
In the 1918 Electoral Role & his medal card I deduce from "157041, 10th A.A.. Sec, M.T.,A.S.C" that he was seconded to the Motor Transport section of the Army Service Corp
I have been sent these badly reproduced images from another member of the Family. He is apparently the Driver on the Left of the pic with the coach to Blackpool. I'm told he was with Midland Red all his career and as he took one of my Auntie's out often seems to have been more a coach driver than Bus. He died in 1928 having never married.

I'd like to find out any more - specifically:
* Can anyone identify the Buses shown in either pic & date them & locate them?
* Any pics on what a conductor would look like in 1901 & a pic of a horse-drawn Midland Red Bus & was their a depot near Yardley?
* Did Midland Red run some sort of Coach or day-trip service at this time?
* Is their any resource that might list employees up to 1928?
 
Hello Aidan, not silly questions at all. If your GGUncle was a bus conductor living in Yardley (where exactly??) in 1901, it is likely that he worked for one of the many private bus operators who ran services in the early days of public transport, most of whom were eventually taken over by the growing BET bus empire as has been documented earlier in this thread, which later became the motorised BMMO (Midland Red) company as the first war approached. The main BET horse bus depot was in Bearwood, on the later site of Midland Red's Bearwood Road garage and workshops, now covered by a supermarket - so I doubt if he travelled daily to work there.
As to the pictures, the first one has Tilling Stevens buses with 'OE' and 'OH' registrations, which date from 1919/20 - sadly the crews are blocking the view of the second and third vehicles, which are lower than the buses and are probably charabanc bodies on similar chassis. The second is easier - enough of the registration is showing to identify it as HA 2351, a 1923 SOS standard chassis (built by Midland Red themselves) carrying a Davidson of Manchester 32 seat charabanc body. This was withdrawn from service in 1928, so dating the picture to a five year span. These were fast vehicles capable of 45-50 MPH on the open road (although restricted by the law to a meanial 20 MPH), built to be lighter, faster and more comfortable than earlier designs by other manufacturers, which were often based on lorry chassis design and running on solid tyres. One daunting thought though is that they had rear wheel brakes only, and could probably accelerate faster than they could slow down!
Lists of employees tended to be regularly amended or destroyed as staff changed, and for most cases the employee would have a 'file' which would be thrown out soon after he had left. Coach drivers were chosen based on seniority, good driving record and good character qualities, so his status shows him to be of high standing with the bosses!
It is possible knowing the records you have of him via censuses etc that he joined the Midland Red on demob from the army, an ability to drive (and for army drivers that included fairly detailed mechanical knowledge) would have been a good leg-up to his career, possibly with references from his service with the horse bus company.
 
Lloyd - thank you for that detailed info. The timeframe certainly fits and now I can look back at this thread with a bit more knowledge and look up the reference numbers you have kindly given! It is certainly amazing to think of such large and heavy vehicles travelling long distances, so fast (even 20mph fully laden sounds quite frightening!), over probably quite rough roads with little brakes. Were long-distance coach journey's common in the 1920s? Were coaches to Blackpool a few times a year deal to coincide with employees holiday weeks or were they a regular timetable?

In 1901 he was boarding in Waterloo Road, Yardley. It would be interesting to know what local horse-bus company was around there and whether there are any surviving pictures. I caught an earlier post with a picture of a conductor with a Straw Hat - was that a general uniform?

In 1911 he was living in Legge Street, Duddeston and in 1918 Tower Street, Aston - both of which are about 4miles E of Bearwood (maybe he moved or maybe took a bus!?). It is good to know that he was probably of good character with the bosses and your suggestion that his previous experience helped him into a career he obviously loved seems most plausible. Thanks again
 
Aidan
A bit out of place on this thread, but following up something in your post above , in 1912 , but not 1908 or 1913, there is the following entry in kellys:
Surman Frederick, haulier, 35 Ward street
Perhaps Joseph was working here for some family member
Mike
 
Mike - you have an unnerving way of getting things spot on - thanks - I hadn't twigged that Joseph's brother had various occupations inc Carter and later lived in Tower Street (and obviously earlier in Ward Street, 1 block away) - Joseph must have stayed with him for a time after he left the army and as you say prob worked with him in 1911. I even have a pic of him with his horse (Dolly) and cart later in abt 1947 (church in background is St Saviours, Cart sign says (F.Surman, Wellesley St, Hockley Birmingham 19 - can't find on a current map tho)

D'Oh zzz
 
2010-04-30 10:59:49

Greetings, Aidan, and welcome to the thread! :)

In 1901 Midland Red didn't yet exist. Your great-great-uncle Joseph Christopher Surman was probably employed by the Birmingham General Omnibus Department (BGO) of the British Electric Traction Co Ltd (BET). The BGO depot was in Taunton Rd, Birmingham. I'm not sure where that is in relation to Yardley, but BGO ran many services to and through Yardley, so he could easily have caught a bus to work! In Gray, Keeley and Seale's Midland Red (Volume 1) there is a picture on page 14 (bottom left) of a four-horse bus outside the BGO depot in 1900. The conductor is standing beside the bus and is wearing a flat cap and dickey-bow tie, as well as the usual money-satchel. On page 13 a two-horse bus is pictured in 1901; in this case the conductor is wearing a rather nifty bowler! Perhaps Lloyd will be kind enough to upload these pictures for you to look at.

The BGO department became part of Midland Red in 1905, so Joseph Surman's service with BGO would have looked very good on his résumé when he applied to Midland Red post World War 1.

Thanks for posting those fascinating pictures. Would it be possible by any chance to re-scan them at higher resolution? The size is fine, but more pixels per inch would be good. These are previously unknown Midland Red pictures, and your family connection makes them especially interesting.

[Can't keep away, folks! I know I'm supposed to be packing my belongings into boxes, but "all work and no play ...". Thanks for that video of Latrobe and Port Sorrell, Lloyd. Makes me want to go and live there! ;)]
 
Here are the horse bus pictures Thylacine referred to - note the varying levels of horse-power!
 
Thylacine - thanks for taking the time out to add to my wealth of information. Taunton Road Sparkhill seems to be about 2.5 miles W of Waterloo Road Yardley so certainly seems to be likely. I will try to experiment with my scanner settings for my pics but I think the root of the problem is that they are I think a scan of a multi-generation photocopy of an early tech scan! I will try and find if I can get hold of a better copy.

Lloyd - Thanks for these pics - they are great - wish I could take a horse-drawn bus to town. I probably wouldn't say that if there was only room on top in the middle of Winter!
 
Aidan
Taunton road was in Sparkbrook, and ran/runs from Ladypool Road to Stoney lane. The BET services in the 1900 Kellys are given below. Wellesley St ran from Nursery Rd to Bridge St West. You can see where the picture must have been taken from the map below
mike

BET_services_1900.JPG
 
Thanks Mike. The map is great to position "Dolly" and owner. Timetable has more routes than I imagined for the time and several to Yardley too - brilliant
 
2010-05-01 01:25:50

Lloyd, thanks for posting those pictures.

Mike, that 1900 BGO bus timetable is fascinating. The "Lane" referred to in connection with services to Bordesley Green, Yardley and Sheldon is Charles Lane (see post #123). He clearly still had "naming rights" over these services in 1900. Charles Lane's business had been absorbed by Claude Tebbitt's BGO in March or April 1897, but Tebbitt employed Lane as managing director. BGO was taken over by BET in September 1899, when R R Fairbairn was appointed manager and O C Power secretary. Lane may have stayed on as director.

Aidan, yes we all would enjoy an occasional horse bus trip! But the poor drivers had a hard life: outside in all weather; long hours; little pay. Conductors like your Uncle Joseph were of course paid even less, but at least they were protected from the elements.
 
Little bit more info: Omnibus Driver/Motor Mechanic for Birmingham Corporation before enlisted in Mar 1916 (see attachment) - Could that be Midland Red and if so what omnibuses would that likely be please?

I attach parts of Joseph Christopher Surman's (as he called himself) Army discharge papers for May 1919 (ties in to the dates for the vehicles in my 2 pics) - seems he was a driver in the MT-ASC around France & Belgium injured in Mar 1919 while changing the springs of the car in Abbeville near the Somme River. He gives addresses as Tower St & Buckingham St - both in Aston area
 
The mention of Birmingham Corporation shows he worked for the city's Tramways department as a (motor) bus driver and mechanic, not Midland Red, at that time. He would have worked on the early motor buses the department ran, Daimlers that had their chassis commandeered by the war department in 1914, and the Tilling-Stevens buses that were taken over from Midland Red with the 1914 agreement of bus services in the city, one of which survives at Wythall museum. See pictures below.
He may well have been transferred from Midland Red at the time, but rejoined them after his war service.
 
Lloyd- the pictures are just beautiful, thank you, as is the info. That's some career though isn't it? Not sure how unusual but taking in horse-drawn bus, possible regression to horse & cart, early motor bus, Army Driver in goodness knows what and then the more sophisticated next generation of coaches. Am feeling a welling pride :blush:

Question just crossed my mind (another...) - Did drivers have tests in those days and if so any way to look that up?
 
No driving tests like today, but there may have been company tests- although it is more likely that there was just 'instruction', or training, with the 'test' being how the trainer assesed the driver's skill.
 
I had 2or 3 weeks in driving school had a midland red driving test and then had a psv driving test in the 1950s allen
 
More on the 1906-1907 Brush Buses (reg O1283-1291).

2010-05-04 20:13:55

I recently bought a copy of Charles F Klapper's Golden Age of Buses (London: Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1978). The large gaps in the Google Books version finally wore me down! This is a remarkable work, drawing on Klapper's long experience as bus enthusiast and public transport journalist. He covers the whole of the United Kingdom (except for Northern Ireland), though the emphasis is on his home ground of London and southern England. His few mentions of Midland Red (which he always calls by the full name Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co Ltd) are always very respectful, but his statements are not always completely accurate. He seems to have been quite well acquainted with Sidney Garcke, and his account of the early days of Deal & District Motor Services is worth quoting, since it sheds a little more light on this rather obscure phase of Midland Red history:

"In 1908 the British Automobile Traction Co Ltd established a branch at Deal. The reason was the abandonment of motor-bus operation by the Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co Ltd becoming persuaded that the motor bus was too unreliable to be tolerated. Through the enterprise of Sidney Garcke, the son of the managing director, who was then 21, the motor buses did not get banned from Birmingham out of hand; it had occurred to him that in the more level area of Leamington and Warwick the motors might give a better account of themselves and three of them were moved to the new location. Six others were sent on a longer voyage (Sidney Garcke himself driving one of them) and travelled the best part of 200 miles, in the course of which they picked up new bodies from Birch Brothers of Kentish Town, five of them receiving Birch charabanc bodies with a light canopy suited to a holiday area and the sixth, O1283, a new double-deck body by the Brush Company after overhaul to make them as reliable as they could be in their new sphere. L G Wyndham Shire and Arthur Twidle were the engineering assistants to Sidney Garcke, whose judgment about the traffic potentialities of Deal and Kingsdown was fully justified. Service with three of the fleet began early in April 1908 and the other three vehicles, Garcke records, were necessary as spares."

Before I discuss the significance of this extract, let me first correct one or two factual errors. In 1908 it was the British Automobile Development Co Ltd which opened the Deal branch, BAD not being renamed to BAT until 1910. (Actually Klapper had just explained this in the previous paragraph.) Also, it cannot be true that five of the six received Birch charabanc bodies "with a light canopy", because O1286 is pictured in Midland Red Volume 1 (page 19 top right) with a substantial single-deck body (albeit with clerestory roof and rather unorthodox entrance). Finally, the text actually gives the registration of the double-decker as Q1283 (not a mistake any self-respecting Midlands bus enthusiast would make!). Perhaps we can blame the type-setters or proof-readers for that one!

We'll forgive Mr Klapper these minor slips. The interesting point is that O1283 received a new Brush double-deck body (presumably installed by Birch Brothers). This tends to confirm my theory (see posts #342-348) as to why this vehicle was exhibited at Olympia in March 1908. It is a testament to Wyndham Shire's engineering skills that he was able (with the help of the otherwise unknown Arthur Twidle) to make three functioning buses from six vehicles more or less written off by Midland Red.

[Not actually moving until 24 May, so I can spare a little time for buses now and then! ;) By the way, I've received my copy of Jenson's Birmingham Transport. What a remarkable collection of facts about the horse buses and tramways of Birmingham! I'm glad I didn't start shooting my mouth off on this subject before reading this book.]
 
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Arthur Twidle - elementary, my dear Thylacine!

Arthur Twidle is found in the 1911 census aged 22 (born 4th quarter 1888 [September 7th to be exact] Camberwell vol 1d page 797) with parents Athur and Annie (nee Mason) and sister Annie (23), at Burleigh Main Road, Sidcup, Bromley, Kent. I think Burleigh was the house name, because in the 1901 census they are at 'Burleigh', The Croft, Footscray, Kent, which may be the nearby road now called Croft Way. Most of the housing in this area is newer (post WW1), although a few older houses remain in Main Road.
Arthur is an "Automobile engineer and secretary", but where is unspecified. His death is recorded as in Hatfield in 1971 (vol 4b page 224), but I have had no luck in finding anything of his later career (as yet!).
Arthur senior, his father, is an "Artist, painter in oils and watercolours and book illustrator".
Quite a famous illustrator too, as this link shows. Here is more about his work, and an example.
 
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Amazing, Lloyd!

So Arthur Twidle was a mere 19-year old (apprentice or journeyman?) engineer when Deal & District started in 1908. Mind you, Shire himself was only 23 at this time.

The trouble with having a famous namesake father is that all queries about the younger Twidle are swamped by references to the elder! The name seems to be often misspelled "Twiddle", which is a good name for a motor engineer!

I am currently enjoying a weekly TV series (probably BBC but not very recent) of "Sherlock Holmes", in which the producers spare no expense in reproducing Victorian London, including a multitude of horse-drawn vehicles: cabs, carriages, black marias, lorries; BUT NO BUSES! :rolleyes:
 
The picture of O 1283 at Deal (P19, top left) is so little different to the picture below of an unidentified similar bus at Kyotts Lake Rd depot I would say they are the same bodymaker (the view of O 1291 on the previous page though has significant differences). A new body, or just the old one overhauled and repainted?
The single deck body on O 1286 (below) has always intrigued me - why a front entrance? One man operation, perhaps? Interestingly the Shire "Superior Omnibus Specification" patent specifies a front entrance 'alongside the driver, so that he may control the boarding of passengers'. Did this bus give him the idea?
Shire is at the wheel, is Twidle there as well?
 
I agree, Lloyd, about the double-deck bodies pictured on page 19 - they look almost identical. Yet the lower bus is still in Birmingham! So did O1283 pick up a new body on its way to Deal? And if not, whyever was it exhibited at Olympia? Mike (the Motorman), where did the information about O1283 at Olympia come from?

Your reflections on the O1286 body are astute, Lloyd. We know that Brush was pioneering the "one man" bus body for Potteries around this time (actually a few years earlier). That would certainly explain the position of the entrance, and "driver only" operation probably made sense in the traffic conditions around Deal. This may indeed be a prototype of Shire's "superior omnibus" body!

There are ten men in the picture; surely Twidle and even Garcke himself are there! Sidney Garcke was 21 in 1908, so Deal & District was definitely a "young men's show".
 
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Still Going On About O1283-1291!

2010-05-05 20:52:59

I am still somewhat puzzled about the post-Midland Red history of the Brush buses (O1283-1291). Just for completeness of reference, here is what Peter Hardy (BMMO Volume 1) has to say:

"All the Brush buses were in good condition and early in 1908 it was decided to transfer the six with Dennis worm drive (O1283-1286, 1288 and 1291) to Deal. In February and March they were accordingly sent to the Amalgamated Omnibus Works in London preparatory to going on to Deal. O1283 and 1284 went as double-deckers, the other four being recorded there as charas though by 1909, O1286 had a single-deck body with clerestory roof and all the others were charas. The Brush buses at Deal formed the nucleus of Deal & District Motor Services and were transferred to the British Automobile Development Co Ltd (later the British Automobile Traction Co Ltd) in April 1910. In charge of them during this period was Mr L G Wyndham Shire who was later to become Chief Engineer of the BMMO and to initiate the production by the company of its own vehicles. In March 1908 the other three Brush buses (O1287, 1289 and 1290) were sent to Warwick on hire to the Leamington & Warwick Electrical Co Ltd. These likewise suffered body changes, O1290 being cut down to a single-decker and O1287 and O1289 becoming charas. They ceased to belong to BMMO at about the same time as those at Deal."

This account differs quite significantly from Klapper's version. There's the somewhat mysterious Amalgamated Omnibus Works. There's no mention of Sidney Garcke (or Arthur Twidle) and no mention of Birch Brothers (nor of Olympia!). And "O1283 and O1284 went as double-deckers"; which suggests that they might have been rebodied (or the bodies refurbished) before they left Birmingham. And this makes sense if the bodies indeed came from Brush at Loughborough. Perhaps the lower picture on page 19 is of O1284 (if not of O1283 itself!). It also seems likely that Hardy had seen the picture of O1286 as a single-decker (and dated it to 1909). The "legal lettering" on O1286 seems to say "operated by Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co Ltd" under "Deal & District Motor Services".

As to the buses hired to LWE, Hardy also has this to say (page 117):

"In March 1908 motor omnibuses again came to Leamington when three Brush double-deck buses (O1287, 1289 and 1290) were sent by the BMMO on hire to LWE to act as feeders to the tram service and to operate trips to Stratford-upon-Avon. These vehicles became the property of LWE about 1910 and O1287 and 1289 were subsequently converted to charas, while O1290 was cut down to a single-decker for a service through Stratford to Shipston."

Which agrees with the previous quote, except to imply that these three ran as double-deckers for about two years before being rebodied or reconstructed. Incidentally, the small LWE motor bus fleet also became the property of BAT on 8 November 1912.

[Sorry to harp on about this folks, and I know I'm going over ground already covered! But it would be nice to get this little episode into clear focus. :)]
 
Hi chaps i have no great knowledge of the buses but i picked a book up Monday (car boot) it heading is Buses Trolleys & Trams by Chas. S. Dumbar not a great deal of technical detail but some nice photos. one or two Midland Reds would they be of any interest to scan and post. Am i O.K. to do this?Dek
 
Thylacine said:
I agree, Lloyd, about the double-deck bodies pictured on page 19 - they look almost identical. Yet the lower bus is still in Birmingham! So did O1283 pick up a new body on its way to Deal? And if not, whyever was it exhibited at Olympia? Mike (the Motorman), where did the information about O1283 at Olympia come from?

My reference to O1283 at Olympia was found in a 1977 book "The British Motor Bus" by Gavin Booth (who also insists on using the spelling Sydney with a Y for Mr Garcke!)
Click to expand...
 
Dek, welcome to the thread! I'm looking forward to those pics.

Mike, thanks for that reference (and for following my ramblings!). I don't suppose you feel like scanning (or typing!) the relevant text?!?! "Sydney" is of course the spelling of a certain colonial city!
 
I think the reference to the Olympia show has been misunderstood - the caption to the picture of O 1283 at Deal (the same one as on page 19 of Part One) says "This Brush double decker appeared at the Olympia show in 1908, and passed first to the original Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus company, and then on to Sydney Garcke's Deal & District company, predecessor of today's Eaast Kent undertaking."
My own aged fleet history shows that some of the 1906 vehicles O 1283-91 carried bodies formerly on Milnes Daimler 16/20HP chassis registered O 264-9, which were rebuilt in c1907 with charabanc and/or lorry bodies. (One chassis is known to have carried O 268 as a chara, and O 1514 as a lorry, with interchangeable bodies), and Wolseley 20HP chassis O 1281/2. This may account for the different body styles, and the one new body. Ony the date is wrong - I wonder if the Olympia show referred to was 1906, which would fit better.
 
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