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L/SGT Frank COOPE, 8707, Worcestershire Regiment.

M

MILLS

master brummie
Another challenge for you super sleuths.

Very little known about this Birmingham soldier.

What I do know:

Enlisted around October, 1904, so enlisted in 1880's and discharged 1919.

Wounded in early 1918 with N of K Birmingham.

ER for 1918 Absent Voters show him residing at 1 court 6, Essex St., Edgbaston.
ER for 1920 shows him plus Mary Ann and Frederick at above address.
ER's up to 1930 when Frank disappears from this address. Did he die?
ER for 1927 shows a Francis Frank at the above address.
In 2 newspaper reports in 1919 Francis Frank COOPE is charges with bigamy, but aged 21 so not FRANK. As Francis would have been born in 1898.
So as I can not track down any Census data pre 1911 not able to place Francis and Frank, or their relationship.

So as always would appreciate any information to fill in the life of Frank COOPE.

Thank you.

David
 
The Francis Frank Coope at the Essex St address was born in 1898 and appears to be the son of a Thomas Coope and a Mary Ann Hayling. He marries again in Luton in 1935, dying there in 1963.

He had a brother Richard Albert who was in the R Warks.

The family is listed as Coates on Inkerman St in 1901 and in Handswoth in 1891.

And as Coats in Bham in 1911, mother Mary and 2 children.
 
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MWS,

I'm trying to track Frank. Sorry the 1880's date should be BIRTH. Francis Frank Coope was living at the same address as Frank. This address is correct for Frank because it ties in with the Absent Voters list for him.
 
There is no other Frank/Francis Coope associated with the family.

Only Frank Coopes born around 1880 were born in Manchester 1882 and Oldham 1884. The Oldham Frank Coope appears to have listed his year of birth as 1880 when he enlisted.
 
MWS,

I'm sure you have the right family names. Thomas (F), Mary Ann (M), Frederick (B) and Francis Frank (B) as they all appear in ER's from 1918 to 1930, except for Father who had died.
What's annoying is Frank is in and out of the ER's but never seems to appear in any Census.
The family name is COOPE so where Coates/Coats comes from who knows!

David
 
From where did you get the 1904 enlistment from?

I not sure what the father's surname was originally but his birthplace is listed as Devon, so could have been an accent problem.
 
MWS,

1904 date is based upon his regimental number and comparing with known enlistments with similar numbers.

David
 
Ok, I think you may have told me that before.

Is that always correct? There appears to be another soldier in Worc Reg. with no. 8707 - William Etchells. And a soldier in the Worc Reg. with no. 8705 - Thomas Trow - appears to have been born in 1894.
 
There is a WW1 medal card for F Coope 8707 in Royal Worcester reg. The F Coope is in red and "rank" has been added in blue next to the F.
1692715360652.png
 
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MWS said:
Ok, I think you may have told me that before.

Is that always correct? There appears to be another soldier in Worc Reg. with no. 8707 - William Etchells. And a soldier in the Worc Reg. with no. 8705 - Thomas Trow - appears to have been born in 1894.
Click to expand...
1692715454835.png
Two apparently with the same number :rolleyes:
 
There are a few numbers around 8707 in the Worc Reg. with more than one soldier. I assumed different battalions maybe but I don't know.
 
MWS said:
And as Coats in Bham in 1911, mother Mary and 2 children.
Click to expand...
Is that the family with 2 sons both called Frank?
The daughter Lizzie seems to have been reg as Elizabeth Coope mmn Hayling.
I am wondering if the 2 Frank's are actually step brothers.
 
MWS Janice,

Duplicate numbers happen, not sure why. It's interesting that 8705 is also duplicated. I'm reasonable confident that he enlisted around late 1904.

David
 
Janice,

Mother of Frank was, I think, Mary Ann Hayling. I have assumed that Frank and Francis Frank were brothers?

David
 
MILLS said:
Janice,

Mother of Frank was, I think, Mary Ann Hayling. I have assumed that Frank and Francis Frank were brothers?

David
Click to expand...
Could be but I didn't find another birth that I thought fitted. Have stopped looking for now but will be back looking tomorrow.

Certainly Francis Frank birth reg with mmn Hayling.
 
pjmburns said:
Is that the family with 2 sons both called Frank?
The daughter Lizzie seems to have been reg as Elizabeth Coope mmn Hayling.
I am wondering if the 2 Frank's are actually step brothers.
Click to expand...

The age of the second Frank is incorrect. The three younger children are the sons of Francis Frank's brother, Thomas (not there) and his his wife (who is).

MILLS said:
Janice,

Mother of Frank was, I think, Mary Ann Hayling. I have assumed that Frank and Francis Frank were brothers?

David
Click to expand...

It is, the spelling of it varies as well.
 
Confused I certainly am. But it always makes me feel better when I see you two beat. I've come to recognise that if you two are beat then it's time to stop looking.

David
 
Coope is such an unusual name that I think it has to be Francis Frank b1898. He is the Francis/Frank on ERs, confirmed by the 1921 census and he disappears after 1930 because he has moved to Luton where he marries in 1935.

As mentioned a soldier of the Worc Reg. with a lower number than his appears to have been born in 1893, also too young to have enlisted in 1904.
 
On his first marriage cert (the legitimate one) in 1918 Francis Frank gives his occupation as soldier. I can post it when I have my laptop on.
 
Here we are:
francis coope marriage 1.JPG
If we find a separate army record (medal card etc) for a Francis Frank then there were 2 people. If not then it seems likely that Francis was called Frank in the army and he is your man.
It would be interesting to see what he put on this "other" marriage to Rose Pennick. Some marriage certs state the army number.
Have included the newspaper article for info.
 

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He appeared in court - is this why he was discharged from the army in 1919??
This is the entry in the Calendar of Prisoners (ihave copied it as two clips but it goes across a double page spread.
1692796663429.png
1692796713051.png

Column headings in order are:
Name age and trade, court and date of commital for trial, date of first reception in prison and whether admitted to bail, offence, before whom tried and date, verdict or pleaded guilty, previous convictionscharged in indictment and proved in court, sentence or order of court.

Second division apparently means they had slightly more privileges than the hardened criminals - more visits etc
 
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MWS,
I accept that numbers might be reused and as you have shown also duplicated but I am still confident that Frank enlisted around 1904.

Janice,
I have looked at Francis Frank and unfortunately could not find any WW1 MIC ( medal card) for him so he may not have served overseas. Also on looking at his address it doesn't tie up with Frank's Absent Voters list address for 1918/1919. Plus at his trial in July 1919 his trade was "woodworker".

David
 
MILLS said:
MWS,
I accept that numbers might be reused and as you have shown also duplicated but I am still confident that Frank enlisted around 1904.

Janice,
I have looked at Francis Frank and unfortunately could not find any WW1 MIC ( medal card) for him so he may not have served overseas. Also on looking at his address it doesn't tie up with Frank's Absent Voters list address for 1918/1919. Plus at his trial in July 1919 his trade was "woodworker".

David
Click to expand...
In the article it clearly states he was in the army as does his marriage cert.
His address is Essex Street which ties in with the eroll address.
Both bride and groom use the same address which may be an address of convenience allowing them to be married in that church.
 
As for medals I thought a serving soldiers got a medal.
However, I will accept you have better knowledge of these things than I do.
 
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This is probably obvious but..it is late. In post #1 you put "injured 1918 N of K Birmingham ". What is N of K?
 
Janice,
If he was called up late he may never have been deployed overseas.
The reasons for me rejecting them being the same man, other than what I have already said, is primarily because he was a Lance Sargent when he was demobilised. Whilst I accept some were promoted very young I believe it's more likely because he was a preWW1 serving soldier. I also can not believe a L/Sgt would not have had his war service mentioned in any press report regarding his bigamy. I don't believe he was dishonorably discharged.
I'm usually very reluctant to disagree with both MWS and your comments but I really do believe they were different men, all be it brothers.
I do thank you both for your sterling efforts, as always.
David
 
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It just seems such a coincidence that he is the only person with "some" of the correct links.
However, MWS and I just provide what we find. The rest is left to you.
Do you buy certs etc if necessary?
 
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