Hopkins, Francis John born 1863

[A Sparks]

I'm trying to find birth details of my Great Grandfather.
The first information I have of him is on the 1871 census taken in Clun, Shropshire, his name is down as John Hopkins and age is 8. He is living in the household of Thomas William(s) stepfather and Jane William(s) mother. It gives his birthplace as Perry Barr, Warwickshire.

On the 1901 census his birthplace is down as Birmingham, Warwickshire but on the 1911 it's down as Clun, Shropshire.
On his death certificate in 1941 his place of birth is given as Birmingham again.

It's a bit of a mystery - I remember my Nan (his daughter) saying on more than one occasion that his mother was called Jane Williams and I just assumed that was her maiden name.
I can only guess that he was illegitimate or she was married before (she would have been 22 when she had him) but think that's unlikely. She was born in Clun, Salop in 1840.

I'd be really grateful for any information as to who his father might have been!
Thanks

 

[Astoness]

nice little mystery there sparks...bit late for me now but i will see what i can find out tomorrow...i dare say other members will also want to help

lyn

 

[Ken_R]

On his death certificate in 1941 his place of birth is given as Birmingham again.

The problem with Death Certificates is that the accuracy is only as good as the informant believes. Perhaps we should all write our own beforehand?

FMP shows,
Place: Clun and Bryn
Francis John Hopkins
Baptism date: 01 Feb 1863
Father's first name(s): Francis John
Mother's first name(s): Jane
Mother's last name: [blank]

There is no image available. Just the transcription. I'm not sure where the original might be stored - possibly Shrewsbury?

 

[A Sparks]

Thanks so much @Ken_R
So his father was Francis John too then?

He was actually living with my Nan in Birmingham when he passed away during the war, he was a widower then and Nan was his only daughter. Presumably she told the registrar he was born in Brum.

 

[MWS]

Jane Luther married John Hopkins 1862, registered Worcester Mar qtr.

Jane was the daughter of Thomas Luther and Mary Ann Evans b1839 Clun.

 

[pjmburns]

There is a marriage in Clun in 1870 of Thomas Williams and Jane Hopkins.
Their daughter Violet's birth is registered at the GRO with Mother's maiden name Luther which ties in with the info in post #5.

 

[A Sparks]

Ah yes, that would figure, I know Nan had Luther ancestors. My father drove us all to Clun when Nan was still alive and we looked at the Luther graves in the churchyard.
One of Nan's brothers had Luther as a middle name.

 

[A Sparks]

There is a marriage in Clun in 1870 of Thomas Williams and Jane Hopkins.
Their daughter Violet's birth is registered at the GRO with Mother's maiden name Luther which ties in with the info in post #5.

Yes, he had a half sister Violet.
His mother must have been married before then - to a Francis John Hopkins.

 

[Ken_R]

Thanks so much @Ken_R
So his father was Francis John too then?

That would be what the Minister entered on the Register, or, as it has been transcribed from the Register. I've been involved in Transcribing for many years and whilst some Ministers might be somewhat harsh with Margin Notes such as 'Illegitimate' or 'Bastard', others may have taken a milder approach and entered something less 'critical'. i.e. A made up name.

One also has to remember, especially with Baps, is that in a busy Parish, where situations/conditions are such that a child born may not be expected to survive, the Minister would be 'called for' to attend [to Baptise the child]. He wouldn't have had the Register with him. Only some sort of Day Book or Diary. In essence, little more than a sheet of paper. From which the actual Register was later completed. Perhaps he mis-read his notes?

The other thing to bear in mind is that, in cases of urgency, Baptisms might be carried out by persons other than Ordained Clergy. A Doctor or a Midwife, or someone else with standing in the Community. A Bank Manager?

Nah. Forget the Bank Manager - he'd want payment for it.

Someone who might deem it prudent to 'massage' the facts.

I've seen Registers where entries have been completed 'out of sequence' where obviously someone, Doctor/Midwife/somebody, has called into the Vicarage for 'tea & biscuits' with their own version of a 'Day Book' and had the Register updated.

Not that I would imagine Clun and Bryn to be an especially busy area in Ecclesiastical matters, but in my visits to the Village there was always a local eagerness to fish in the river for Trout.

Really. You need to get sight of the actual Register and get 'a feel' for the accuracy in which it was completed.

 

[A Sparks]

Thanks again @Ken_R that's very interesting!

An odd thing though - the 1871 census gives his place of birth as Perry Barr - presumably his stepfather would have said that? Ironically, he was living with my Nan in Perry Barr when he died. She moved there when my mother was a teenager, previous to that the family had no connection to Perry Barr as far as we were aware!

 

[MWS]

Can't see a likely birth for him Francis John Hopkns.

However in 1861 there is an Emma Jane Luther listed as a shopwoman living in Worcester (no birthplace listed) and in the same household there is a John Hopkins listed as a Shopman b1839 West Bromwich. The listing of the name Emma could be an error, quite a coincidence otherwise.

Perry Barr comes under the West Bromwich district.

There are too many deaths for John Hopkins between 1862 and 1870 to be sure which his might be.

One of the possible reasons that there is no birth registration for Francis John Hopkins is that he was illegitimate and born after John Hopkins death.

 

[MWS]

The marriage between John Hopkins and Jane Luther which took place on 10th Feb at St John's Worcester appears to have been reported in the notices of several newspapers -

Hereford Times 15th Feb
Worcestershire Chronicle 19th Feb
Hereford Journal 22nd Feb

 

[A Sparks]

Thanks @MWS that's all very interesting!
I knew what was classed as Perry Barr in the 1800's was a much larger area.

It seems that she was living in the Worcester area at one time then - oddly another connection to Nan who moved out of Birmingham in the early 50's to live in a village in Worcestershire, she was following here ancestors around without knowing!

....and yes, Hopkins is quite a common name when you are trying to locate someone!!
My Nan married a Smith - even worse!! I have never tried to look back into that history, hahaha.