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Midland Red Early Days

Red House Garage Co Ltd (Coventry).

Proof that this firm was a coach operator in a later life: Bus Lists on the Web (https://www.buslistsontheweb.co.uk/) gives 32 coaches bought new in the period 1967-1980 by Red House (Coventry). Not necessarily a continuation of the firm mentioned in Leamington & Warwick Part Four. Could be just a re-incarnation of the name.
 
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Another nice one, and in Red House colours! I couldn't find any pictures of coaches actually in Red House livery, just a few with later owners. Red House Motor Services seems to have been the trading name of Red House Garage Co Ltd. There's a Warwickshire Coach enthusiast forum with a section on RHG which goes back to the 1940s.

Here it is (https://www.travelwarwickshire.co.uk/index.php). No wonder the 1940s is the cutoff point!
 
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2010-04-04 08:41:45

Front of a Tram?

Here (https://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?resource=19482[FONT=&quot]) is a picture captioned: "Women and children standing in front of a tram". Well, partly right! There are indeed half a dozen women and as many children in the picture, but they're standing BEHIND A BUS! And not just any bus. Quite appropriately it’s a type M which stands for "Madam" as they were designed with women in mind! The second person from the right is Florence Annie Lock née Wright (1885-1966) of Leamington.

The location of the picture is Leamington (or somewhere nearby). Florence is from Leamington, the picture comes from the Leamington Spa Art Gallery & Museum, and fragment of a Leamington "leopard spot" is visible above the registration number.

What is the date of the picture? From what we know of the history of the bus (see below) it must be between 1929 and 1947. From what we can see of it, the bus looks reasonably new. And Florence (who turned 44 in 1929) looks to be still in her forties. So the picture probably dates to the period 1929-1935.

Lucky for us that the group chose to be photographed against the back of a bus!

Enthusiast’s supplement.

As Midland Red Volume 1 explains: "The M was a QL chassis with an improved body design conceived to attract women passengers to do their shopping etc by bus. Comfortable 'bucket' seats reduced the capacity to 34 and the partition on previous designs was eliminated." There are eight pictures of Ms in Midland Red Volume 1 (pages 74-75) but not one rear view!

The bus in our picture is fleet number A988 (HA4922 SOS M chassis number 975 with Ransomes B34F body number BB1298). It was new in 1929 and survived until withdrawn in 1947.

It is remarkable that the chassis was intended for the Ortona Motor Co Ltd (Cambridge) and was to have received Peterborough registration VE1101. But it was damaged in an accident while being driven to the Ransomes, Sims & Jefferies Ltd works at Ipswich for bodying. So the chassis was returned to Bearwood depot to be reconditioned, after which it entered Midland Red service.

Leopard spots (circular discs with symbols of various shapes and colours; see Midland Red Volume 2 page 143) were placed on the backs of buses in the period 1920-1948 to identify the garages to which they were allocated. They must have been a bus spotter’s delight!

[Thanks to Lloyd (post #156) for corrections and valuable sleuthing.]
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The additional note in the caption naming Mrs Lock, and other pictures in that website's files of her and her children Leslie and John, give me enough to find:
Leslie Harry Lock, born Warwick 4th quarter 1916, and John Clifford Lock, born Warwick 1st quarter 1925 both have mother's maiden name Wright.
Florence Annie Wright, born Warwick 2nd quarter 1885, married Harry Lock 3rd quarter 1908 in Warwick. (Actually June 13th!)
In the 1911 census, Harry Lock (28) and his wife Florence Annie (26) are living at 46 Leicester Street, Leamington Spa. (Warwick registration district includes Leamington).
So, my dear Walford, Leamington it is!

For completeness, Harry died 1932, Florence 1966, Leslie in 1974 having married Pearl Cleaver in 1955, can't find John's death for certain but he married Margaret Robinson in 1954. - all registered in 'Warwick'.

The lengths we go to, to find the 'location' of a photograph!

Oh, and chassis construction, overhaul and repair was done at Bearwood in those days.
 
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Thanks for that great detective-work Lloyd. I'll plug the results back into post #155. What lengths we go to indeed (but what fun!).

Aren't those websites (Windows on Warwickshire and Staffordshire Past Track) great? I wish we had the same for other Midlands counties (Leicestershire, Shropshire, Worcestershire etc).
 
Yes, I thought that afterwards!
Here the two 'boys' are in their miltary uniform of the 40's

There seems to be a lot of Lock family artifacts on that site.
 
Another great picture! Leslie is in RAF uniform (I've got a picture of about the same vintage of my Dad when he was in the RAF). John isn't exactly in uniform is he? Perhaps Merchant Navy? He could even be a busman!?!?
 
There's another picture of him with an anchor overstamp, so some part of the navy it must have been. A bit off subject now, aren't we?
 
I don't know if the Locks went on coach trips, but if they did it could have started here.
One of the early batch of SOS QLC touring coaches prepares to embark on, as the board says,
"Todays tour - Grand Cotwold Tour of Old World Villages, including Chipping Campden and Broadway, leaves at 2:30, home at 7:00, 5/-."
The view is in Station Approach, used for many years as the Midland Red terminus at Leamington.
 
Well steered Lloyd. That's a lovely picture of Midland Red touting for day tour business in Leamington the late 1920s or early 1930s. I love that coach! The supreme development of the open coach with beautiful lines. Is the retractable roof power operated?
 
No, still a two-man job. Shire patented the design of body with retractable roof, fixed sides and wind-down windows in 1927, GB patent 294,381.
Other designs gave either a fully open vehicle, with little visibility when the hood and sides were up, or a fixed-roof saloon. This gave the best of both, a vehicle suitable for all weathers.
 
2010-04-05 06:15:30

Midland Red at Play.

Hardy’s BMMO Volume 1 records that Midland Red ancillary vehicle number M38 (HA2638 Morris Oxford 14 hp 2-seater car new 1925) was converted in 1929 into a "roller for the Midland Red sportsground". I find it hard to imagine this conversion! Did the car just tow a roller, or was the roller fitted into the back of the car and driven by the motor?

Mention of this roller raises a couple of questions. Does anyone know the whereabouts of the sportsground? Does anyone have more information on Midland Red’s involvement in sport?

We know that Midland Red had its own "orchestra" (which was always so-called, never a band) because they had the use of their own coach: fleet number A3301 (KHA301 BMMO C1 with Duple C30C body number C266 new Nov 1948). In Midland Red Volume 2 (pages 37-38) this lovely coach can be seen when new at the Duple Motor Bodies Ltd works at Hendon, and appears again on page 38 (top left). And here’s a nice picture of it on duty (not with the orchestra). A3301 was converted into a dual control driver trainer in 1963. It passed to the 3301 Preservation Society (one of whose members was Bob Archer). Here’s a picture of it at Woburn on 6 Sep 1987. Has anyone seen it lately or know its current status?

Does anyone know more about Midland Red’s musical activities?
 
Your link to 3301 in service doesn't work - this does though.

The Midland Red sports ground was off Wolverhampton Road South, Quinton, Birmingham - a housing estate either side of Thornhurst Avenue now occupies the site. Some company film exists of sporting occasions there, annual inter-garage stuff, and a 'comedy act' involving a former SOS FS type converted to full-cab as a trainee bus decorated in 'carnival' style with eccentric wheels, obviously driven from the left hand side (with windows blacked out) so the 'real' driver's cab is empty!

Former 'orchestra' coach, C1 3301, is still around now owned by a preservation group and attending rallies up and down the country. One of two surviving C1s, (3311 is the other, still roadworthy but rarely out these days) both survived as trainee buses after service use. Both are now fully restored, including refitting of the five-speed overdrive gearboxes they had when new.
The Midland Red Salon Orchestra gave concerts usually accompanying silent films advertising company coach cruises, tours and days out on coach trips or using the 'day anywhere' ticket on buses.

Here is 3301 at a rally at Longcross in 2007 - yours truly at the wheel.
 
Lloyd, it's great to see you at last (yet not very clearly!). And how fittingly at the wheel of 3301. Is it still owned by the 3301 Preservation Group (Bob Archer)? Thanks for the additional info on the sports ground and the Midland Red Salon Orchestra. I'd like to see that film you mentioned (is it at Wythall?). Do you know of any pictures of the orchestra at work?

[That link works for me?!?!?]
 
Still owned by that group, Bob is one of the members.
No pics of the orchestra that I know of, sorry.
Some of the museum's collection of Midland Red films are available as part of videos from here, some with modern-day shots of museum buses in the same locations.
 
2010-04-05 09:41:37

The Midland Red Open Touring coaches of 1927-1930.

Lloyd posted (#163) a lovely picture of a QLC coach touting for business on the streets of Leamington. This is one of my favourite Midland Red coaches of all time! I would be more than happy to travel in one today, and we are fortunate indeed that it is still possible to enjoy the "QLC experience". Here is 1930 QLC HA6147 [FONT=&quot] pictured at Wythall in Oct 2004 (looking fine and ready to roll). This coach apparently has an original body (which one?) but mounted on a later chassis (which one?).[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

The type codes tell the story. The QC "Queen Charabanc" of 1927-1928 was the charabanc version of the Q "Queen" bus. Similarly the QLC "Queen Low Charabanc" of 1928-1930 was the charabanc version of the QL "Queen Low" bus, which in turn was a lowered version of the Q. The official designation of these vehicles was still "charabanc" of which the QC and QLC represent the ultimate development. The Midland Red built bodies, to the creditable design of chief engineer Wyndham Shire, included central gangway, sides with winding windows and manually operated retractable roof. The QC and QLC might more properly be called "open touring coaches".
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2010-04-05 09:45:06

The Midland Red SOS QC "Queen Charabanc" 1927-1928.
[Corrections, additions and comments welcome.]

Only one batch of nineteen QCs was manufactured (in the second half of 1927 and early 1928). The "prototype" rolled off the production line in about July 1927 and was registered HA3666 (fleet number A667). Fourteen went to Midland Red and five to Trent Motor Traction Co Ltd (TMT). Nineteen suitable 30-seat open touring coach bodies (C60-78) were made (to Shire’s design under patent number 294,381) by Midland Red at Carlyle Works.

The five 1927 TMT QCs were given fleet numbers 600-604 and registered CH6256-6260. The chassis numbers were 501, 504, 510-512 and the bodies C66-70 (I don't know the exact correspondence between fleet, chassis and body numbers). Here are pictures of CH6256 (at the Lands End Hotel, Cornwall; you have to scroll down to find it - anyone know how to link directly to the picture?) and CH6259 (at the Clarendon Hotel, Oxford). Does anyone know the later history of the TMT QCs?

The fourteen Midland Red QCs were registered HA3666-3679. The other numbers were (respectively): fleet A667, A703, A713, A722, A724, A721, A732, A730, A733-734, A782, A780, A781, A735; chassis 390, 490, 505, 508, 514, 513, 516, 515, 523, 527-528, 522, 525-526; body C60-65, C71-74, C78, C76-77, C75. HA3666-3675 and HA3679 were made in 1927, the other three in 1928. HA3677-3678 (A780-781) were sold on immediately in 1928 to Northern General Transport Co Ltd (NGT) without entering service with Midland Red; fleet numbers A780-781 were re-assigned (to QL HA3719 and QLC HA4824 respectively). HA3667, HA3670, HA3675 and HA3679 followed in 1935. The remaining Midland Red coaches were withdrawn in 1935 and broken up in 1936-1937. Does anyone know the fleet numbers, registrations and later history of the NGT QCs?

Midland Red Volume 1 has pictures of HA3667 (pages 67-68), HA3669 (page 157) and HA3675 (page 68). Also on page 68 is a picture of the attractive BMMO "crest" that first appeared on the QC and continued to be used by Midland Red for many years).
 
Sadly "HA 6147" is merely a replica, built on a modern Bristol underfloor engined chassis by the former Hants and Dorset company's Eastleigh Works as an advertising tool - and was at first in Shamrock and Rambler (of Bournemouth) livery. Later it passed to Midland Red North and was repainted as you see in that picture, and now belongs to Ashley Wakelin's "Wheels" company at Coventry, which has also resurrected the "Midland Red Coaches" name. Its registration is really TR 6147, but the owner has a false "HA" plate which is hung over the real one at off-road rallies. See here for more details
 
2010-04-06 10:10:07

The Midland Red SOS QLC "Queen Low Charabanc" 1928-1930.
[Corrections, additions and comments welcome: a five sol reward is offered for each numerical error reported.]

Three batches of QLCs were manufactured: thirty in 1928, another thirty in 1929 and twenty-five in 1930. The "prototype" was HA4824 (A781). Eighty-five suitable 30-seat bodies (C79-163) were made by Short Bros Ltd (Rochester).

1928 Batch.

All were powered by the four-cylinder SOS engine except for HA4827 (A801) which had an experimental six-cylinder SS engine. Fifteen went to Midland Red, ten to NGT, three to TMT and two to Llandudno (Royal Blue).

The Midland Red QLCs were registered HA4821-4835. The other numbers were (respectively): fleet A787, A789, A798, A781, A799-801, A803-804, A807, A809, A815-816, A818-819; chassis 701-702, 710, 718-719, 721-730; body C79-89, C105-108. All were sold to NGT in 1935, except possibly for HA4827 (A801). Hardy (BMMO Volume 1) states that A801 was broken up in 1937 and adds (my emphasis): "It is claimed that A801 was also sold to Northern in 1935". Does anyone know the fleet numbers, registrations and later history of these QLCs after they headed north? HA4824 (A781) was sold on by NGT to Jarrow & Hebburn Co-operative Society Ltd (JHCS) as a flat-bed lorry.

Midland Red Volume 1 has pictures of HA4824 as the JHCS lorry (page 73) and HA4835 when new at Carlyle Works (page 72). Lloyd posted (#163) a picture of one of this batch at Leamington.

The QLCs made for NGT had chassis numbers 703, 705-706, 709, 711-714, 717, 720 and body numbers C90-99. The other numbers were (respectively): fleet 363, 365, 364, 366-369, 383, 370, 384; registration UP676, UP678, UP677, UP679-682, BR6778, UP683, BR6779; body C90, C93, C91, C92, C94-C99.

The TMT QLCs had chassis numbers 704, 715-716 and body numbers C100-102. The other numbers were (respectively): fleet 650, 652, 651; registration CH7144-7146; body C100-102.

The Llandudno (Royal Blue) QLCs had chassis numbers 707-708. The other numbers were (respectively): registration CC7862-7863; body C103-104. They passed to Crosville in Feb 1931 with fleet numbers 585-586 and were withdrawn in 1936. Peter Gould's Crosville fleet list incorrectly gives the bodies as Brush Ch29.

1929 Batch.

The whole batch was made for Midland Red and powered by the six-cylinder SS engine. They were registered HA4879-4881, HA5016-5042 and the other numbers were respectively: fleet A991-1000, A1004, A1003, A1002, A1005-1007, A1011, A1009, A1008, A1010, A1012, A1014, A1013, A1015-1016, A1018, A1017, A1019-1021; chassis 1124-1133, 1136, 1135, 1134, 1137-1139, 1143, 1141, 1140, 1142, 1144, 1146, 1145, 1147-1148, 1150, 1149, 1151-1153; body C109-138. C125 (on HA5029) was built as a "two compartment continental" coach and C126 (on HA5030) as a "sun saloon" coach.

HA4879-4881, HA5016, HA5023-5024, HA5026, HA5033, HA5042 were broken up in 1937. HA5027 was withdrawn in 1937, converted to a "boat lorry" in 1938, rebodied (as "boat lorry") to C152 in 1941 and C124 in 1946, and finally broken up in 1952. HA5030 was withdrawn in 1937 and broken up in 1938. HA5032 was broken up in 1938. HA5038 and HA5041 were withdrawn in 1938 and broken up in 1940. HA5016, HA5019-5021, HA5036-5037 and HA5039 were withdrawn in 1938 and broken up in 1942. HA5029 was converted to a stores van (with 1930 Eccles Caravans Ltd body number B100) in 1938 and sold in 1950. HA5018, HA5022, HA5025, HA5028, HA5031, HA5034-5035, HA5040 were withdrawn in 1938 and hired to Potteries Motor Traction Co Ltd (PMT) between Oct 1940 and Apr 1943. HA5018, HA5025, HA5031, HA5034-5035 and HA5040 were broken up in 1943. HA5022 was converted to a "boat lorry" in 1944 and sold in 1952. HA5028 was broken up in 1944.

There are pictures in Midland Red Volume 1 of HA5016 at Carlyle Works when new in 1929 (pages 71-72). There are pictures in Midland Red Volume 2 of HA5022 as "boat lorry" (in pale grey livery with black wings and white roof) at Carlyle Works in 1952 shortly before withdrawal (page 200) and HA5042 at Bearwood depot (page 137 top). And here is a picture of HA5035[FONT=&quot] at Fillongley in the 1930s.

1930 Batch.

All were powered by the six-cylinder SS engine. Eighteen went to Midland Red, two to Potteries Electric Traction Co Ltd (PET), three to TMT and two to Llandudno (Royal Blue).

The Midland Red QLCs were registered HA5135-5145 and HA6146-6152. The other numbers were (respectively): fleet A1169-1172, A1177, A1174-1176, A1180, A1178-1179, A1181, A1173, A1184, A1182-1183, A1185-1186; chassis 1316-1319, 1330, 1325-1327, 1329, 1332-1335, 1338, 1336-1337, 1339-1340; body C139-156. HA6149 was broken up in 1937. The rest were withdrawn in 1938. HA5135-5136 and HA6146 were broken up in 1940. HA5138-5139, HA5141-4143, HA5145, and HA6147-6148 were broken up in 1942 (as Lloyd pointed out the latter day "HA6147" is a modern replica). HA5137 was hired to PMT between 1940.10 and 1943.04 and was broken up in 1943. HA 6150-6152 were broken up in 1943. HA5140 was converted by Midland Red to a six-wheel breakdown lorry in 1941 (with body B144 made from its previous body C144) and sold for scrap in 1953.

There are pictures in Midland Red Volume 1 of HA5136 (page 72), HA5139 (page 73 lower right) and HA6146 at Bridgnorth in the mid 1930s (page 73 lower left). There are pictures in Midland Red Volume 2 of HA5140 in 1941 just after conversion to a breakdown lorry (page 200). Lloyd also posted (#59) a picture of the chassis of HA5140 at Carlyle Works after conversion in 1941.

The PET QLCs had chassis numbers 1321 and 1324. The other numbers were (respectively): fleet 223, 222; registration VT4523, VT4522; body C158, C157.

The TMT QLCs had chassis numbers 1320, 1322 and 1328. The other numbers were (respectively): fleet 671, 670, 672; registration CH8920, CH8919, CH8918; body C161, C160, C159.

The Llandudno QLCs had chassis numbers 1323 and 1331. The other numbers were (respectively): registration CH9284-9285; body C162-163. They passed to Crosville in Feb 1931 with fleet numbers 587-588 and were withdrawn in 1949. Lloyd posted (#62) a picture of one of the Crosville QLCs near the end of its life.
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[FONT=&quot]2010-04-06 04:24:02

Worcestershire Public Transport 1850-1950.

Worcestershire was from a very early date an important area of expansion for Midland Red. The 144 (Birmingham – Malvern) was one of the best known Midland Red services, and Worcester Corporation was the first local government authority with which Midland Red concluded a legal "local service" agreement in 1928. For these reasons I thought it would be useful to provide the historical context by presenting a history of public transport in Worcestershire over the period 1850-1950. I have divided it into three parts: the Horse Bus Era 1850-1915, the Tramway Era 1880-1930 and the Motor Bus Era 1900-1950. Clearly the three parts overlap considerably, but a strictly chronological treatment is apt to be overcomplicated and confusing.
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2010-04-06 04:26:54

Worcestershire Public Transport. Part One: The Horse Bus Era 1850-1915.
[Corrections, additions and comments welcome.]

The horse bus era evolved fairly seamlessly from that of the horse-drawn coach. The omnibus itself and the word "omnibus" are French innovations. The earliest experiment with a bus-like service was launched by philosopher Blaise Pascal (19 Jun 1623 – 19 Aug 1662) with the help of his aristocratic friends at Paris in the year 1662. The "Entreprise des carrosses à cinq sols" (Five-sou coach business) continued valiantly for a decade or so. It might have survived longer if the Parlement de Paris had not forbidden "soldiers, pages, lackeys and other livery-servants as well as manual workers and tradesmen" from using the coaches.

About a century and a half later in 1823 industrialist Stanislas Baudry (1777 – Feb 1830) introduced a coach to carry customers from the town of Nantes to the Bains de Richebourg (a public bath he had built next to his steam-powered flour mill). Baudry soon noticed that his coach was being used more for local transport than by prospective bathers. So he grasped the opportunity and on 10 Aug 1826 began a public transport service at Nantes using two 16-seat covered coaches (developments of the "carrosse de diligence"). The terminus of his service happened to be at the shop of a milliner named Omnès, whose clever slogan was "Omnès Omnibus" (Latin for "everything for everybody"). Baudry soon adopted the fleetname Omnibus and before very long people were calling his coaches omnibuses. The new service was a great success and on 11 Apr 1828 his company Entreprise générale des omnibus (General Omnibus Co) opened eighteen omnibus routes at Paris.

London coachbuilder George Shillibeer (11 Aug 1797 – 21 Aug 1866) happened to be working in Paris at this time and saw Baudry's omnibuses in operation. He may even have built one or two of them. He returned to London where he introduced the omnibus (and the word "omnibus") to the British public on 4 Jul 1829. For this Shillibeer is known as "the patron saint of the London omnibus". Very quickly the new omnibus began to displace the slow, expensive and unreliable "short stage" coaches. A new era had begun for public transport. "Omnibus" was quickly abbreviated to "bus".

And what of Worcestershire? It wasn't until about 1850 that local directories started to list bus proprietors and bus services:

1850s. Elias Barlow (Stourbridge): Birmingham – Stourbridge (twice daily); Jacob Gardner (Stourbridge); Mr Jordan: Birmingham – Kidderminster and Birmingham – Stourport; William Ackrill (Bromsgrove): Birmingham – Bromsgrove (twice a week); Mr Atkins: Birmingham – Bromsgrove (twice a week); Mr Chandler: Tenbury – Leominster (Tuesday); Mr Crane: Tenbury – Ludlow (twice a week); Elizabeth Gough (Stourbridge): Stourbridge – Bridgnorth (Sunday) and Stourbridge – Wolverhampton (Wednesday); Mr Lewis: Stourport – Worcester (daily); T Simpson (Stourbridge): Birmingham – Stourbridge; Mr Wilcox: Tenbury – Stoke; Mary A Gardner (perhaps Jacob Gardner's widow) in partnership with Mr Perkins: Birmingham – Stourport; James Gardner (perhaps Jacob Gardner's nephew): Worcester – Stourbridge.

1860s. Mary A Gardner: Birmingham – Stourbridge (daily); William Belton (Dudley); Charles Golden (Dudley); Luke Jewkes (Dudley); George Morris (Dudley); George Owen (Dudley); Thomas Owen (Redditch); Joseph Parkes (Stourbridge); George Tharne junior (Dudley); George White (Dudley); Kenaz Keep (Bromsgrove): Birmingham – Bromsgrove (three times a week).

1870s. Samuel Williams: Birmingham – Stourport; Mrs Frances Clarke (Bromsgrove); George Farley (Malvern); William Williams (Strensham); John White (Malvern).

1880s. Thomas Showler Morris: a service for GWR at Worcester (Shrub Hill station).

1890s. A Dawes: Kidderminster – Bewdley; William Cresswell (Redditch): Redditch – Astwood Bank; Edward Plevey: Kidderminster – Bewdley; John Tyler: Kidderminster – Stourport.

1900s. Thomas Cresswell (Redditch): Redditch – Astwood Bank; A R Flanders: Kidderminster – Bewdley; Henry Preece (Tenbury); John White & Co (Malvern).

1910s. George Frederick Jabet (Wribbenhall): Wribbenhall – Kidderminster and Kidderminster – Bewdley; Richard Maunders (Bewdley): Kidderminster – Bewdley (twice a week); John White & Co (Malvern).

[These lists are probably not very representative. For example, northern Worcestershire seems to be over-represented and Worcester itself under-represented. I have only scanned a few of the local directories available on the internet. These vary in the extent of their coverage, and there must be many small operators who have been overlooked. However the names and services that are mentioned give some idea of life in the horse bus era. I hope you’ll excuse my little introduction on the origin of the omnibus!]
 
SOS QLC built for other operators
For brevity, this will be a rather clinical list.
Sorry no details of the second – hand ones.

Listed in this order-
Fleet no: Regn No: Chassis No: Body No.
Northern General
363-70, UP 676-83, 703/6/5/9/11/2/3/7, C90/1/3/2/4-6/8
383/4, BR 6778/9, 714/20, C97/9

Trent Motor Traction
650/2/1, CH 7144-6, 704/15/6, C100-2
672/0/1, CH 8918-20, 1328/2/0, C159-61

Llandudno Coaching & Carriage
- -, CC7862/3, 707/8, C103/4
- -, CC 9284/5, 1323/31, C162/3
The notes about rebodying must be an error, as you see from the picture in post #62, they retained their original type bodies till the end.

Potteries Electric Traction
222/3, VT 4522/3, 1324/1, C157/8

As another aside, you may notice that most vehicles’ capacity downseat by one in c1931 – this is due to the provisions of the new public service vehicle ‘construction and use’ regulations which prevented the fitment of seats across the rear emergency door, which in most SOS designs was of a fold-up variety. The theory was that in the event of panic, someone sitting there would be unable to get up thus preventing the door from being opened. Access to the door and its operating handle was required to be unobstructed at all times.

I do have lists of other types for the other operators that used SOS vehicles, but don’t really want to clog up this forum with pages of details. Sadly it’s all written out longhand, as it was done years before home computers and spreadsheet programmes were available, but if you want specific data send me your e-mail addy in a private message and I’ll see what I can do.
 
I had thought "Carrosses à cinq sols" was 'Coaches for five souls", indicating their (small) carrying capacity.
Certainly "Omnibus" (as you say, translates from Latin as "for everybody" or "for all"), also showed that the very low fares charged by comparison to other coaches and hire carriages, cabs etc, allowed the less well-off lower classes to be able to afford to use them.
 
Many thanks for your QLC "other operator" notes, which if you don't mind I'll use to update post #175 so that we have all the correct details in one place.

"Five-soul coaches" sounds great Lloyd! I'm pretty sure though that "sol" is an earlier form of "sou" which was an old coin worth five centimes (ie a twentieth of a franc). Five sols was the fare charged. There were seven carrosses each capable of carrying eight passengers. Pascal's idea was for the "poor folk" to use the service but the ennobled lawyers of the Parlement (not the King) prevented this, thus guaranteeing that the experiment would fail.

I've been lucky to be able to get away with this French stuff on a Birmingham forum! So far.
 
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