• Welcome to this forum . We are a worldwide group with a common interest in Birmingham and its history. While here, please follow a few simple rules. We ask that you respect other members, thank those who have helped you and please keep your contributions on-topic with the thread.

    We do hope you enjoy your visit. BHF Admin Team

Mary Morton Chapman

Stupid question but I assume you know that Joseph's brother Henry Curzon Allport was an artist, at one time a member of the Birmingham School?
 
MWS said:
This is from the search results (need a subscription to see properly), there are probably some mistakes...

"Splendid Sale, Heath Terrace, West Bromwich, be sold by auction, Septimus Davis. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, February 28, and March 1 and 2, 1831, on the premises of Mr Joseph Allport, Solicitor, who going abroad, all the genteel and valuable household furniture, for the dining, drawing and bed-rooms, cabinet upright Piano-forte, a real Cremona Mandolin, beautiful Oil Paintings by eminent Masters and other looks, a pair of noble globes, with the mariner's compass, capital double barrel ? and fowling pieces, excellent cut glass, china, all the kitchen and brewing utensils, Dennet Gig and harness, saddles and bridles, with the usual variety miscellaneous articles. N.B. The sale will commence each morning at ten o'clock. Catalogues of the sale may be had the Castle Hotel, Birmingham and the Bull's Head Inn and the Auctioneer's property, West Bromwich..."
Click to expand...
This tells us so much about the couple. Their love for art and music and just look at what they were selling! I will certainly use this in my writings - thankyou for taking the time to type it out
 
MWS said:
Stupid question but I assume you know that Joseph's brother Henry Curzon Allport was an artist, at one time a member of the Birmingham School?
Click to expand...
Yes the connections to the art world are interesting. John Glover also taught at the Allport school and taught Henry. They became close friends. Then Henry and John Glovers son also John taught Mary. John Glover came to VDL in his 60s to be with his family and painted wonderful paintings here. This is a painting of Glover by Mary in 1832.

1658705040224.png
 
  • Appreciate
Reactions: MWS
One coincidence I've just come across is that on the 1841 census Ann Floyd Chapman and William Floyd Chapman lived next to each other, their address is given as Coventry Road and was in the vicinity of Whitmore House. And on the 1891 map not too far away from Whitmore House there is a Chapman Road.

And another interesting (or not) fact, that despite their parents and grandparents being prominent residents of Bham, by 1891 only a single grandchild of Thomas & Ann Floyd Chapman lived in the Bham area and when he died in 1910 then (as far as I can see) there were none.
Apart from Mary Morton Chapman in Tasmania, records of their children and grandchildren can be found in US, India, South Africa, (mainland) Australia and Barbados, as well as London, Manchester, Coventry and Gloucester.
 
MWS said:
Also Aris's Bham Gazette 21 and 28 Feb and I think they might confirm that the William buried West Brom is their child, both articles seem to mention their address as Heath Terrace.
Click to expand...
Hi MWS
I can't seem to find these articles
MWS said:
One coincidence I've just come across is that on the 1841 census Ann Floyd Chapman and William Floyd Chapman lived next to each other, their address is given as Coventry Road and was in the vicinity of Whitmore House. And on the 1891 map not too far away from Whitmore House there is a Chapman Road.

And another interesting (or not) fact, that despite their parents and grandparents being prominent residents of Bham, by 1891 only a single grandchild of Thomas & Ann Floyd Chapman lived in the Bham area and when he died in 1910 then (as far as I can see) there were none.
Apart from Mary Morton Chapman in Tasmania, records of their children and grandchildren can be found in US, India, South Africa, (mainland) Australia and Barbados, as well as London, Manchester, Coventry and Gloucester.
Click to expand...
Well that is interesting. Families in that era regarded the whole British Empire as their domain and certainly made the most of it. The military was of course in all parts of the Empire, including Tasmania so this sent many people to far flung corners of the World. My family Grey/Gray were Anglo Irish and even though they too left at the same time as Mary and within a couple of generation no trace was left in Ireland. Their extended family too went to Ceylon, Canada and other places.
Talking of not so important information. The Barque Platina which the Allports sailed to VDL on was on her maiden voyage! Build in 1829

Ian
 
The article I copied out (post #118) was from Aris's Bham Gazette 21 Feb 1831 and the one from 28 Feb appears to be the pretty much same notice.
 
Ian Broinowski said:
Hi MWS
I can't seem to find these articles
Ian
Click to expand...
Where did you look? Both are on the British Newspaper Archive

Results for 'joseph allport' | Between 1st Feb 1831 and 28th Feb 1831 | Aris's Birmingham Gazette | Publication | British Newspaper Archive

Your search results for joseph allport: 3 newspaper articles contained information about joseph allport filtered by: Newspaper title: Aris's Birmingham Gazette Date from: 1st Feb 1831 - Date to: 28th Feb 1831
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk
 
pjmburns said:
Where did you look? Both are on the British Newspaper Archive

Results for 'joseph allport' | Between 1st Feb 1831 and 28th Feb 1831 | Aris's Birmingham Gazette | Publication | British Newspaper Archive

Your search results for joseph allport: 3 newspaper articles contained information about joseph allport filtered by: Newspaper title: Aris's Birmingham Gazette Date from: 1st Feb 1831 - Date to: 28th Feb 1831
www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk
Click to expand...
Thanks Janine I have located the first one.
kind regards

Ian
 
1659608204543.png

Hi Everyone,
This is slightly off history but I have a scene where 10 year old Mary is arriving at her new school Cedar Court in Aldridge in 1816 after living in the middle of Birmingham city. When she walks over to the trees and looks out over the fields I want to know what she would hear. Birds, animals and the sort of trees and plants she would see and smell. I wonder if anyone can help or suggest someone or group who could help.

Look forward to your thoughts
Ian
1659608261443.png
 
MWS said:
I think it's probably just a case of not baptising children immediately and doing two at a time. One of my 3 x g grandfathers was baptised with 4 of his siblings.

There's a bit of a gap between the baptisms of Ann Frances and Thomas & James, and the 1841 census gives Thomas' age as 40, though that's not precise.

All baptisms list the parents as William & Ann so it would be a bit of a coincidence to have another William & Ann Chapman baptising their children on the same day.

Thomas & James would seem to be confirmed as brothers (twin or otherwise) by the presence of James' daughter with Thomas in 1841. Humphrey is definitely the son of the correct William because of the newspaper reports. And William Floyd is mentioned as the uncle of James' daughter in her marriage to Joseph Browne. Also on the 1841 census William is living next door to his mother.

I did wonder what happened to James and Eliza though, that in 1841 one child is with a brother and the other is in a charity school (even though the family as a whole appear to be quite well off).
Click to expand...
Hi MWS
I have been trying figure out what James' story is. I seems he embarked on a series of unsuccessful business enterprises while in VDL and all ending badly. First on the farm then with others as running a pub, then as auctioneer for one year with a disreputable character named Hobbs who then went into competition with James, I guess after learning all the tricks of the trade. James was a qualified auctioneer obviously learning from his father. I doubt if there was enough business for one auctioneer business in Bothwell and certainly not two.

I am assuming he returned home then but I cannot find a departure record.

With his track record of failed business ventures maybe he became bankrupt.

Could you please send me the link for the 1841 census and the information about the orphan school..

All the best
Ian.
ps I have also just discovered they were actually going to Sydney but stopped in at Hobart and the governor persuaded them to stay - maybe by giving them some land?


1659849919811.png
 
It's pretty good that there are so many newspaper references to the Chapman family, they certainly give some inkling to what they were doing.

Going by the reference to Texas in his probate mentioned earlier I assume he went to the US. There doesn't appear to be a death registration for him in England.

If as you say he was wont to try his hand at many things then when things didn't work out in Tasmania, maybe he thought he'd try his luck somewhere else.

There appear to be image(s) associated with the probate/will records on findmypast that may reveal something but you need a subscription to see them.
 
MWS said:
It's pretty good that there are so many newspaper references to the Chapman family, they certainly give some inkling to what they were doing.

Going by the reference to Texas in his probate mentioned earlier I assume he went to the US. There doesn't appear to be a death registration for him in England.

If as you say he was wont to try his hand at many things then when things didn't work out in Tasmania, maybe he thought he'd try his luck somewhere else.

There appear to be image(s) associated with the probate/will records on findmypast that may reveal something but you need a subscription to see them.
Click to expand...
Yes I am starting to build a picture of a man who is somewhat over zealous about each venture he goes into but perhaps does not follow through leaving his partners to pick up the pieces. It may also explain why the children are abandoned. He was following yet another rainbow leaving his wife and family destitute.
Can you give me the links to the newspapers which refer to the Chapmans and especially to the link where the the orphanage is referred to please

Thanks

Ian
 
My mention of newspaper articles was just a reference to the many articles about the wider Chapman family that have been discussed before, nothing new.

And if by orphanage you mean the place where James Evett Chapman's son was then it was a charity school in 1841. Hopefully this is the link...

Record Details | FreeCEN

Find 19th & 20th Century UK census transcriptions, for free, forever.
www.freecen.org.uk www.freecen.org.uk
 
MWS said:
My mention of newspaper articles was just a reference to the many articles about the wider Chapman family that have been discussed before, nothing new.

And if by orphanage you mean the place where James Evett Chapman's son was then it was a charity school in 1841. Hopefully this is the link...

Record Details | FreeCEN

Find 19th & 20th Century UK census transcriptions, for free, forever.
www.freecen.org.uk www.freecen.org.uk
Click to expand...
Reading about the school it seems incredible that he should be there - for the poorest and destitute children. Maybe Eliza had died and James away chasing an illusive dream in Texas!

Thanks again
Ian
 
I agree it seems surprising that he would be there when he would seem to have had some fairly well off relatives in Bham.

It's not always to be certain of things on 1841 census but I think it's likely to be him - age right, birthplace (out of country) right and his sister is back in Bham as well.
 
I wonder when Eliza died. Maybe the children were left destitute then while James was away following yet another dream. He may have been one of those relatives who had just let down too many people and looking after a ten year old boy was too much. There is a story here if only we knew what it is!
 
Sadly we can only speculate. Also, I could have made a mistake with the 1841 census and it's a different James Chapman, which would lead to the question where is the correct James Chapman though.

Intriguingly, the father of James Morton Chapman's (James Evett's son) wife is listed as an auctioneer on their marriage. A coincidence or was he known to the family?
 
Last edited:
MWS said:
Sadly we can only speculate. Also, I could have made a mistake with the 1841 census and it's a different James Chapman, which would lead to the question where is the correct James Chapman though.

Intriguingly, the father of James Morton Chapman's (James Evett's son) wife is listed as an auctioneer on their marriage. A coincidence or was he known to the family?
Click to expand...
Hi MWS,
I hope you are well. All progressing well. Could you elaborate on this statement please. could have made a mistake with the 1841 census and it's a different James Chapman, which would lead to the question where is the correct James Chapman though.

I want to share our findings about James with a very enthusiastic librarian who is the curator of the Allport collection in Hobart but I want to be clear on the material I am showing her so I thought I should clear this up first.
I have attached most of the bits and pieces so far FYI

Thanks

Ian
 

Attachments

Pleased it's all going well.

My doubt is due to the lack of information that is recorded on the 1841 census, so at times it becomes a matter of probabilities.

The details that are recorded for the James Chapman at the Blue Coat School in 1841 are a good match - age is close and place of birth being overseas. He is definitely baptised (again) at St Phillip's in 1840 so that says he was in Bham around that time. I wonder what address is listed on it.

With the prominence of his extended family it does seem a little strange that he would be in a charity school but it seems unlikely that there would be another overseas born James Chapman of the same age in Bham in 1841. And I think I found all his relatives on the 1841 census except Humphrey (possibly at sea) and he's not with any of them.

So unless more information comes to light it does unfortunately come down to what you chose to believe. On balance I'd say it's him but that's just my opinion.
 
Last edited:
MWS said:
Pleased it's all going well.

My doubt is due to the lack of information that is recorded on the 1841 census, so at times it becomes a matter of probabilities.

The details that are recorded for the James Chapman at the Blue Coat School in 1841 are a good match - age is close and place of birth being overseas. He is definitely baptised (again) at St Martin's in 1840 so that says he was in Bham around that time. I wonder what address is listed on it.

With the prominence of his extended family it does seem a little strange that he would be in a charity school but it seems unlikely that there would be another overseas born James Chapman of the same age in Bham in 1841. And I think I found all his relatives on the 1841 census except Humphrey (possibly at sea) and he's not with any of them.

So unless more information comes to light it does unfortunately come down to what you chose to believe. On balance I'd say it's him but that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...
Thankyou. Our librarian told me today Mary's mother Ann Floyd Chapman had written a journal for her. She is working on it to prepare a presentation later in the year - I am wondering if she mentions James. I will let you know if anything comes from her writings.

Ian
 
MWS said:
The details that are recorded for the James Chapman at the Blue Coat School in 1841 are a good match - age is close and place of birth being overseas. He is definitely baptised (again) at St Martin's in 1840 so that says he was in Bham around that time. I wonder what address is listed on it.
Click to expand...
I am not sure if this is the baptism you mean. It is 1840 but is at St Philips

1660744260684.png

Source Citation​

Library of Birmingham; Birmingham, England; Birmingham Church of England Parish Registers; Reference Number: DRO 25; Archive Roll: M43
 
  • Appreciate
Reactions: MWS
Yes, that's it. Thanks. Fingers must have had a mind of their own, sorry.

Unfortunately, Bromsgrove St is not immediately helpful.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top