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Help Please

Pedro You have hit the nail on the head. This is why everything to day is belt and braces - take COSSH - The control of substances hazardous to health. Any liquid, solid or powdered material whether it can cause injury/death or not has to be corded in a special legder and quantified as to risk - Low, Medium or High and have full details of how it should be dealt with in the case of accidental contact - full risk assessment and method statement.......
and so shall the snowflakes and litigants prosper
Morturn, I don't think they misquote, I think they use it as a threat, as a bargaining tool and sometimes as a reason not to carry out a task.
Sospiri, Hong Kong as well with raffia like binding to keep it together.
Phil You mean to say that I can no longer put up scaffolding this - next you'll be telling me I have to have a special card and training to be a scaffolder.
The problem often stems from the jobsworths who have to make a fuss to justify their taxpayer (council or national) funded existence.
Bob
 
For over fifteen years I was an unpaid volunteer on a 'heritage' railway.
With the advent of more H&S and insurance clauses it became less of an enjoyment; more of a job. Restrictions with areas where we could go on the railway, coupled with the need to clock in on a machine (which is something I have never done) instead of a simple signature and time made me realize that this was no longer going to be the enjoyable experience I had known - so I decided to walk away.
 
Bob

My problem with the HSE (as it was in my day) is that it sent many small business to the wall, because they couldn't afford the extra money it took to keep in line with new legistlation because back then if you tried to pass on extra costs to your client you didn't get the contract.

Now they have just about covered everything they are still looking for meaningless changes to justify their existance.
 
Bob
You are very right about chemicals. I have mentioned before, though not aure if it was on this forum, the example of an early edition of Sax's Dangerous Properties of Industrial materials.Each chemical included was given a code as to how a spillage should be treated. for relatively harmless substances the recommendation was to wash downsurface with water. the only thing was that , for some reason, presumably a desire to be complete, water was included. so the recommendation if there was a water spillage was to "wash down surface with water"
 
Phil said:
Bob

My problem with the HSE (as it was in my day) is that it sent many small business to the wall, because they couldn't afford the extra money it took to keep in line with new legistlation because back then if you tried to pass on extra costs to your client you didn't get the contract.

Now they have just about covered everything they are still looking for meaningless changes to justify their existance.
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Have we an example of a firm that was forced out of business due to its inability to conform to a health and safety recommendation?

The Health and Safety Executive does not have to justify its existence. The Act of 1974 was the culmination of well over a hundred years of titanic struggle by the working class.

One of the best examples of the struggle is in the coal mining industry. In 1850 the government set up the Mines Inspectorate due to pressure from many areas of society. It was a token effort, it was underfunded, and yet it gradually improved the shocking conditions men had to work in.

Move to 1913 and the worst ever British mining disaster at Senghenydd where 439 miners were killed. It had been 12 years since 81 miners had been killed there. There company had ignored recommendations by the Inspectorate. The manager was fined 24 quid and the Company 10 quid, and the owner Sir William Lewis got off Scot free. The cost of each miner’s life was valued as 5.5 pence.

Move to 2017 and it can already be seen that a multitude of Health and Safety recommendations have been ignored in fire and building regulations at Grenfell Tower.
 
Radiorails said:
For over fifteen years I was an unpaid volunteer on a 'heritage' railway.
With the advent of more H&S and insurance clauses it became less of an enjoyment; more of a job. Restrictions with areas where we could go on the railway, coupled with the need to clock in on a machine (which is something I have never done) instead of a simple signature and time made me realize that this was no longer going to be the enjoyable experience I had known - so I decided to walk away.
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Sorry you feel that way and a shame that it got to that stage.

I've heard many stories of where there are both 'employed' and 'volunteer' staff where the volunteer has been told, "You can't do that. That's [name of employee]'s job." In some ways I can understand that. The employee is there to earn an income. If a volunteer turns up and completes a job to an equal [or better] standard, then the income of the employee comes into jeopardy.

The Heritage railway where I volunteer is almost entirely volunteer workforce. Whilst the HofD and Dep HofD (C&W) are essentially retired 'desk jockeys', we still take H&S seriously.

It just means that the trained/qualified Engineers are allowed to get on with what they do best because the Managerial staff don't have the skills/knowledge to dictate otherwise.:)
 
I do have other unpaid work to do each day Ken besides the railroad which was only twice a week.
A few years ago, after scandals, it became necessary for anyone dealing with children or elderly people needed vetting. Like much legislation it can be interpreted a little more excessive than intended. It is only when it becomes a matter for the courts to decide is a definitive interpretation usually given.
On a lighter note when I was informed, by someone in an office, whom I did not know and who was some distance from my location - i.e. in another town - that it was necessary to have this vetting in order to protect old, vulnerable people. I tried not to laugh too loud and pointed out that most people I visited were, in fact, younger than me and it was me that could be the old, vulnerable person.
I accept the need for many restrictions in today's world, but I also note that in many instances it can become a question of simply 'ticking the boxes'.
 
Pedrocut

I certainly wasn't intimating all of the ideas advanced by the HSE were a bad thing but I knew a couple of small businesses that went bust, it might have the last straw that broke the camels back. Another friend of mine had to let one of his labour force go to keep solvent.

The thing is I took on the job of safety officer myself after attending all the appropriate lectures and courses and this was in addition to all the additional paperwork that was generated. (have you ever tried writing a method statement for a demolition contract) each job is different and required a statement tailored to that specific job, but this is how we saved money. The annoying thing was whilst I realise that the construction industry is one of the most dangerous industries I never learned anything new on any of the courses that I attended and I have to add in over 35 years we never had any accident other than cuts and grazes on any of our sites.
 
Phil,

Your last sentence says it all. We're just raising generations of idiots with their heads stuck in iPads and tunnel vision without the ability to think logically. Hence, the warnings on packets of peanuts such as "May contain nuts". Unless they have EVERY possible option put into print, they assume that they can do it. Such as the American woman who washed her pet poodle and put it in the microwave to dry, then sued the makers when the dog died saying that the instructions didn't say she couldn't. Apparently in this age of stupid litigation she won her case.

I could go on and on. A generation of drivers with the inability to read a map who drive large vehicles down narrow alleyways and get stuck just because satnav says they should.. And these people want the vote at the the age of 16? Goodness help us!!!

PS And some of the people who make these laws are not much brighter!

Maurice :-)
 
Gosh, what fun I asked a simple question about a ladder picture and the brothers and sisters of the BHF came together to provide not only the pictures, thus helping me put together a very interesting safety course, but also it developed into a most interesting discussion on Health and Safety. One aside, I used the picture of the window cleaner three floors up and yes the answer to my question as to what was wrong with the picture was.....'somebody took the ladder away'. When I explained about sash windows etc, etc, there was complete puzzlement.
Phil I started in Construction in the early sixties, you know the days when the Clerk of the Works seemed to have all the power and had to be feared, but you could put antifreeze in the mortar mix when the temperature was minus five and they all wore 'wellies' while standing in a concrete pour...the early days of ready mix and concrete on tap. I saw the damage that was done to small firms as they struggled to meet the requirements of HASAW and I also knew a number who went under or had to close down, and having worked closely with a number of Demo firms I sympathise with you having to prepare RAMS. Nowadays it is all CADs using generic plans. The other thing today is you cannot get on site without a ticket. Every entry in these posts makes a relevant point and I suppose Maurice sums it up beautifully, with computers and Satnavs, there is no longer a need for anyone to think for themselves it is all done for them.
Talking of ladders, do you remember those little ones with the pointed tops that the gas light men used to carry, now they would need a cherry picker

Bob
 
October 1969 M6 site workers at Perry Barr get crash course in safety.....in the first 6 months of the year 145 fatalities in the construction industry.

DE244FDC-3D72-48F6-A2E2-88641A8EFDF2.jpeg CAB2FA9C-868F-41D3-B48C-199556D434CF.jpeg 5C2031FB-262D-4B1E-BADE-291822D7B79E.jpeg
 
Slightly off Topic for Ladders - Ignorance is bliss on what you could make as a child.
Make your own Asbestos Jewelry.
Asbestos.jpg
 
Bob,

We're all having fun because the topic "Help please" is so wide-ranging that it is almost impossible to go off-topic and we are still talking about Birmingham history because most of us were brought up in the city.

Pointy ladders I well remember, but they were wooden and easy to make, not so easy in these days of aluminium ones.

What happened to the drysalters? At the age of 15, my school holidays were spent working for the plumber & builder who lived and had his workshop next door to us. Long before the days of plastic guttering, I learned how to make the zinc stuff from sheet. I learned how to make my own paint using raw materials from the local drysalters. None of this is now possible both on economic terms and because we can't even buy the raw materials any more!

The paint only came in two colours, Brunswick green or brown !!

Maurice :)
 
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When the new H&S legislation was introduced in the 1970's we had a couple of 'Bolshi' types on my fire station. Daily training became a joke as these two guys managed to halt proceedings by claiming much of what were doing was 'dangerous'! After a few days of this idiocy it was pointed out that the training was dangerous as it was for a dangerous job we were being trained!
 
A tale I can tell, one of my customers was the son of a builder/funeral director, he had a bit of a falling out with his dad so went off and got a job with an NHS hospital down south as a maintenance manager.

The crew were tasked with repainting those long hospital corridors, he was in his office when the 'union' man came in and demanded danger money for his workers because they were working above six foot from the ground,

"But that's not possible, the step ladders are only five foot high."

On investigating he found that they had raised the height by putting bricks on top of the steps and under the planks, this meant they were above six foot but had to stoop their heads to get below the ceilings :rolleyes:.

He told them to cut out the nonsense take the bricks out and get on with the job.

He then found that they were now painting the corridors with one inch paint brushes and the 'union' man told him to F- off, they were working and there was nowt he could do about it.

He returned to his dad's business after just three months.
 
This sort of thing was what, in the end, caused the decrease in the strength of the unions. At Cadburys, pre 1970 or so, almost everything that could be was done in the factory. they even had their own clock man to look after the clocks (and mend your watch if it needed it). One day Brian Powell, the R&D director happened to notice an internal bill to R&D for sharpening some scissors that worked out (cannot remember exact amount) as more than replacing the scissors with new ones. He lost his top ant that and from then on was a solid advocate of buying in services. this resulted in the loss of many jobs and a reduction in union power
 
Here in Crete, a volunteer team from INCO (the Foreign Residents Association) have been painting the interior of the local hospital, to much acclaim from the medical staff and patients - and it is looking very good. Many remarked "You wouldn't get Greeks doing this for nothing!" It's simply because there are not the funds to do it in the hospital's coffers and with such high rates of unemployment, there are no unions, let alone union opposition. But everyone is happy, the gardens at the front of the hospital having just been replanted with plants donated by INCO members by INCO volunteers. This is not an anti-union action, just local residents taking pride in their environment.

Maurice
 
For many decades, in the Police Force (I'll refrain from using the word 'service'), if you got 'injured on duty' then you would get full pay until, either one was fit, or Pensioned off.

Then, I think, sometime in the 90's, it all changed. Working from memory, for six months, full pay, then reduced pay, then after 12 months, no pay. But there was no definition of 'Duty' as in 'injured on'. The 'hard' examples are easy to define but where the uncertainty lies is with the 'soft' services. "I've forgotten my keys and can't get in. Can you climb through a window for me?" Or the more common, a motorist with a puncture. Common to assist a vulnerable/less able driver but, should the supplied jack collapse, and an injury occurs, does this constitute 'injured on Duty'? Try explaining to one's wife and family that 'helping a motorist' has resulted in (after 12 months), no pay!

I asked the question when the rules first came into being. I never got a reply.:(

Edited: To add that I phrased that badly. "Injured on duty" retained full pay, whereas, for example, an injury playing sport triggered the diminishing pay structure. The 'grey' area was being on Duty but partaking in the 'soft' instances of assisting the Public.
 
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These things usually get changed when they get abused Ken, skivers and dodgers take advantage and the real needy suffer.

The NHS is in that position now, it doesn't matter how much the taxpayer puts in it will never be enough until they get to grips with the abuse from both within the service and from its 'customers'.
 
You know, one of those young kids with his head stuck in an IPad, told me that the problem with the NHS is that us old buggers are living too long. The cheek!
 
Old enough to remember when guarding on machines in factories was inadequate, and have seen a young girl loose a finger in a small hydraulic press. So the '74 act was a good thing. Fencing loading bays was always a problem as it did tend to get in the way of stacca trucks, but somewhat less of a fall than from the cliff tops on the southwest footpath which so far has escaped the attention of the health and safety lobby
In the home safety is often neglected, even at my age I will go up a ladder to trim a conifer edge, three point contact? Do two knees and two feet count, but I do wear eye protection and use a circuit breaker. Not sure if a 3Kg battery trimmer on top of a pole is any safer!
Over the years I quite happily installed and maintained a gas central heating system and done a complete rewire including the consumer unit, both now quite illegal actions. The guy who has until recently done my annual heating system check has had to retire, as the fee for his "safe hands" certificate, which was due for renewal, made it inviable for him to work part time. And another local plumber now only does non-gas work to avoid the need for certification.
I generally have avoided tall ladders, being somewhat acrophobic, and admit my wife, in her younger days would paint the gable ends while I kept my feet closer to the ground.
 
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I can believe that, Pedro, but we did at least work our wiotsits off for 50plus years to pay for it and for him to reach the age he has!

Maurice
 
Health and safety privatised in the construction industry...

On an early morning of June 2017 Fireman Brown was leaning out of the window of flat 16 in Grenfell Tower. He was being held by the waistband by his colleague Fireman Batterbee; they were both in breathing apparatus. He was trying unsuccessfully to stop the fire that had developed on the exterior of the building.

June 2018 Fireman Brown appeared as a witness at the Grenfell Inquiry. He was asked whether he had ever been given training on the mass evacuation of a building...

“We do not do evacuations, we only do assist and rescues....Grenfell Tower used to have an intergrated fire system with a concierge....Each year the building needed a fire certificate...it has all been privatised, it is no longer our responsibility.”

For the low down of this privatisation see the Sky News article, Britain’s Fire Safety Crisis.

“Building control - the enforcement arm of the fire safety system - was opened up to competition, pitting private building inspectors against council officers in what one architect told us was an "extremely stupid" form of privatisation.

https://news.sky.com/story/long-read-grenfell-britains-fire-safety-crisis-11146108
 
Corruption such as this has happened whereever privatisation has occurred, whether it be the railways, safety regulations or whatever. If you think you can get away with it, then cut it.
 
Pedrocut said:
Health and safety privatised in the construction industry...

On an early morning of June 2017 Fireman Brown was leaning out of the window of flat 16 in Grenfell Tower. He was being held by the waistband by his colleague Fireman Batterbee; they were both in breathing apparatus. He was trying unsuccessfully to stop the fire that had developed on the exterior of the building.

June 2018 Fireman Brown appeared as a witness at the Grenfell Inquiry. He was asked whether he had ever been given training on the mass evacuation of a building...

“We do not do evacuations, we only do assist and rescues....Grenfell Tower used to have an intergrated fire system with a concierge....Each year the building needed a fire certificate...it has all been privatised, it is no longer our responsibility.”

For the low down of this privatisation see the Sky News article, Britain’s Fire Safety Crisis.

“Building control - the enforcement arm of the fire safety system - was opened up to competition, pitting private building inspectors against council officers in what one architect told us was an "extremely stupid" form of privatisation.

https://news.sky.com/story/long-read-grenfell-britains-fire-safety-crisis-11146108
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As the Mother of a London fire fighter I am horrified by the situation fire fighters find themselves in due to cost cutting measures. He has been a fire fighter since 2003 and has seen more and more flaunting of fire and building regulations over the past few years. I am sure that this applies to Birmingham as much as London.
 
I live in spain and a few mornings every week I go to a local cafe for coffee. I sit near to Spanish builders that usually have pints of Spanish beer and large brandies then go back to work. Twice a day, 11 ish and 1 afternoon.
 
sheldontony said:
I live in spain and a few mornings every week I go to a local cafe for coffee. I sit near to Spanish builders that usually have pints of Spanish beer and large brandies then go back to work. Twice a day, 11 ish and 1 afternoon.
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If any would be trainees turn smelling of drink or drugs, and they have done, it's goodbye, no test for you.
Bob
 
I live in Crete and we've had many builders work for us and for friends over the 13 years that we have lived here, but I have never known a Greek or other nationality of worker accept a beer or a raki or any other achohol whilst at work. Despite tea, coffee and pretty well everything else being offered, they inevitably request only cold water and frequently drink it in litres!

Amongst the locals, drunkeness, even at weddings, is very rarely apparent, it's always the tourists and very occasionally foreign residents who seem to favour more alcohol than is good for them! Incidentally, I only ever drink with a meal and these days it amounts to one small Amstel a week! :-)

Maurice
 
oldMohawk said:
A bloke cleaning windows in Wheeler St, Lozells was caught in an old street pic ...
who needs ladders ? ...:D
index.php

only visible if logged in https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/for...our-old-street-pics.41947/page-69#post-535124
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Burst water main Wheeler Street...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-44750373
 
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