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Apprenticeships

J

jane k

master brummie
We have 4 generations of ancestors who were watchmakers in coventry - the sons being apprenticed to their fathers. I have a rough idea of how apprenticeships worked but wondered if the financial arrangements and restrictions would apply when only family members were involved.

Any thoughts or ideas on how I could find out more would be much appreciated.

Jane
 
From a dictionary of old trades,titles and occupations...
apprentice, Origionaly someone who paid ( or worked for nothing as an assitant ) to learn a trade under contract. In ancient times a man could not move from apprentice to craftsman until he was 21 years old.
 
hi mike
yes that very true right up until the begining of the sixties
some industries would not pay the full rate to people
under the age of 21 years old,when reaching the age of 21
you automatic got the top rates of pay
i worked at radex in edward rd ladywood my eldest
brother ron also worked there he was the electrician
he was 21 years older i was years younger
i could not get the high rate until i was twenty one
my brother done apprentice at the old M,E,B,
in cheston rd as it was then way back
he served is apprenticeship there for five years
before making the grade
my other brother bil he served six years for is plumbing
apprentise ,and i myself served five years apprentice
with the birmingham city council for
interior and exterior painting and decorating
some apprentices in varios trades take about seven years
before quailtifying
i think the goverment should re-introduce the apprentice
schemes back - does anybody agree with this
or are our youth out of control or drugged up or just bone
and pampered by parents
best wishes astonian ;;
 
Herbert Machine Tools of Coventry pre WW2, apprentices on finishing their training were let go (sacked) to gain experience in other factories etc and would not be employed by Herberts until they had spent 2yrs away, a former apprentice friend went to Brazil & worked as an engineer at a goldmine, worked 4yrs there, married and came back to GB circa 1940 and worked at BSA Tools, Kitts Green and i started there in 1949. Len.
 
When an apprentice finally passed out he knew his job and understood what was expected of him. We now have so many people who are incompetant. This includes some people who work in shops and goes all the way up the tree to middle ans in some cases senior management. Of course there are people who know their jobs and this is obvious when you have the good fortune to meet one.
 
I am puzzled at how individuals various trades were recognised as having better than ordinary skills. For example one of my ancestors was a hairdresser, this was on several sucessive census forms but on the last census form he was described as hairdresser - master. Did he earn this additional title or just add it to satisfy his own ego. He was not the most honest of all my ancestors, the next census after becoming a "master" he was in jail - where he was described as "prisoner - barber", I'll bet his wife was impressed !

I'm also concerned at the title "journeyman" - what does this mean exactly and were there any restrictions on adding this to your trade title. i have an ancestor whose trade description was Tailor - journeyman. I assume that this does not mean he made uniforms for train drivers and bus conductors ?

Regards, Snowball.:D
 
Hi Colin, thanks for the information. Can you please clarify the following - after you had completed anappropriate apprenticeship you became a tradesman and then needed to pass another exam or probationary period BEFORE you became a Journeyman OR once you became a tradesman you were automatically called a Journeyman, in which case the terms are the same but were probably used in different time periods. Were these titles governed by guilds or what ?

Regards, Snowball.
 
Snowball said:
Hi Colin, thanks for the information. Can you please clarify the following - after you had completed anappropriate apprenticeship you became a tradesman and then needed to pass another exam or probationary period BEFORE you became a Journeyman OR once you became a tradesman you were automatically called a Journeyman, in which case the terms are the same but were probably used in different time periods. Were these titles governed by guilds or what ?

Regards, Snowball.
Click to expand...

Have a look here:)There a bit of reading to do but worth it
Snowball
https://www.public.iastate.edu/~gbetcher/373/guilds.htm
 
From a dictionary of old trades,titles and occupations.

Journeyman. Fully qualified tradesman who had served an apprenticeship of any trade. Origionally he was employed and paid by the day as opposed to a MASTER who would have his own business where he could set his own rates and employ others.
 
I'm not sure when the old 'GUILD' system disappeared from most trades; but in the case of my gg grandfather, when he finished his apprenticeship as a watch-maker, he had to produce and present a piece of his own work before a Guild committee, where he was questioned and his work inspected. Then a vote was taken as to whether he could advance to the position of 'journeyman'. This process was repeated again, after some years as a 'journeyman' watch-maker, whereby he had to present his 'master-piece' (the origin of the word) before being made a fully-fledged Master Craftsman. He had to make an entire watch, every single part, including its case...the only exception being the watch glass.
I suppose it was mass-production, plus trade-unions (which probably fulfilled some of the functions of a trade-guild?) that saw the demise of the power of the guilds.....as you know, the system has carried on, under an employer/college based system until the present day. Although I believe it still exists, under its old form (?) with gold/silver smiths.

My own father was always insistent on being called a 'Master Pattern Maker' as he said that he had worked hard enough for it, he was damn-well going to be called it! It meant more to him than being a 'boss' or any other title.

I believe there was even more to this system: involving who was allowed to employ others; to offer apprenticeships etc. Including rates of pay and the care of retired members, and those fallen on hard times...widows and orphans etc.
 
To sum up the situation as it existed in olden times. There were three stages

Apprenticeship Often for 7 years when you were bound by an apprenticeship to a master. At the end of which you produced an apprentice piece to show that you have acquired the skills of the trade or craft when you were advanced to

Journeyman. From the French jour meaning day. This showed that you were fully qualified in your craft but could not work on your own account. You were employed by a master and paid by the day. This is the origin of the word Journeyman. After a set time you produced your masterpiece and were then advanced to

Master. One who could trade on his own account, employ journeymen and train apprentices.

All these were assessed by the officials of the trade or craft guilds.

In the City of London many of these old guilds still exist where they are known as Livery Companies. Although they still exist they have in many cases lost their connection with their original trades and have become social and charitable institutions. Some however still have a role in their trade, for instance the London Assay Office is still controlled by the Goldsmiths Company. The Fishmongers Company still check the weights and measures in Billingsgate Fish Market. The Fanmakers who used to make ladies fans now promote studies in ventilation equipment. In the past 50 years there has been a move to create new livery companies and there are now 108 in the City of London the most recent of which is the Taxi Cab Drivers.
 
What a lovely document David I used to cycle to Roughley when I was young! I still have my apprenticeship papers a full A6 on parchment my boys think it's hilarious!!
 
Great stuff David,that's proper social history.
Come on Wendy lets see your apprenticeship forms.
 
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Hello, my gg'f Alf Richard Baker b1866c, Barr St/Wheeler St was a journeyman brass founder in 1894 & a master window cleaner in 1900 so he would have served 2 apprenticeships? Does anyone know where/if any such apprenticeship lists are kept?
[by the way I can't find his birth or baptism - there is another Alf Rich b68 born to a different twig on the family tree - & he doesn't appear in any of the census 1871/81/91 so researching his story is challenging to say the least]
 
Hi there, I doubt if any apprenticeship was required for either of these occupations. A journeyman was someone who travelled to sell produce, these days would be known as a travelling salesman. In your 2x grandfathers case it was brass items.
As a Master window cleaner from my experience of Ancestry records and census information it suggests that it may have been his own business. Check out the 1901 census and see if he states whether he was an employer of men. If you are not sure of his D of B use the + or- age tool. Good hunting.
 
There is an Alfred Baker baptised at Christ Church in November 1866. Is that him? Parents William and Harriet
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I am not so sure if a master window cleaner was seen as a skilled occupation, meaning I just don’t to any degree of certainty.


I would however say that most certainly a journeyman brass founder was actually highly skilled. It seems that people who worked in metal, brass and bronze were highly skilled in an occupation that has a history extending back many thousands of years and were highly valued.


Usage of language does change over time, but generally a journeyman was a person who had completed a recognised apprenticeship, normally in the construction industry or building trade crafts. As a journeyman you could then apply to one of the craft guilds to become a master craftsman. I was a building craft apprentice and still have a set of indentures all signed, stamped and sealed.


Birmingham did have a distinction of allowing people to work without being members of trade guilds.
 
Morturn said:
I am not so sure if a master window cleaner was seen as a skilled occupation, meaning I just don’t to any degree of certainty.


I would however say that most certainly a journeyman brass founder was actually highly skilled. It seems that people who worked in metal, brass and bronze were highly skilled in an occupation that has a history extending back many thousands of years and were highly valued.


Usage of language does change over time, but generally a journeyman was a person who had completed a recognised apprenticeship, normally in the construction industry or building trade crafts. As a journeyman you could then apply to one of the craft guilds to become a master craftsman. I was a building craft apprentice and still have a set of indentures all signed, stamped and sealed.


Birmingham did have a distinction of allowing people to work without being members of trade guilds.
Click to expand...

Having served a 5 year apprenticeship myself in the motor trade 60 years ago, I acquired an interesting copy of an Apprentices Indenture off eBay some months ago, for the apprenticeship of a William Herbert Beauchamp, who lived in Whitmore Road, Small Heath, and served a 4 1/2 year apprenticeship with Alldays & Onions Pneumatic Engineering Co. Ltd.
Starting in 1894 his wages were 6 shillings per week, rising to 10 shillings per week in 1898, and his mother had to pay Alldays a £60 Premium for his apprenticeship.
His terms included that "the said William Herbert Beauchamp shall not play at cards, dice tables, nor any unlawful game, and shall not haunt taverns nor ale houses".
William was working for Wolseley Motors Ltd., in 1921, in a managerial position, and was then living in South Yardley, so he did well after serving his "time" with Alldays.
Boomy
 
Terry,

Welcome to the Forum. As far as I know, the ones online stop at 1811. Check out the National Archives or stick the keywords "indentures England" (without the quotes) into Google. Postcard fairs, which generally have a paper ephemera section, and generally have lots of random ones, but I know of no complete lists for that time period.

Maurice
 
Slightly off topic but I discovered some time ago why these were called 'indentures' originally. I was looking at papers from the 1700's (actually vellum and to do with land) and remarked that the left hand side was 'wavy'. The librarian said that there were always two copies, one for the master and one for the apprentice, or seller and purchaser, and once they have been confirmed as exactly the same they were put together and left hand side was indented so that they could be matched at any time to make sure they were the originals.
 
It took me about 20mins yesterday to put together the ancestry of Alfred Robert Baker who was born in 1868. His father was also Alfred Robert Baker and a son was named Alfred Robert Baker also. ARB 1868 who's wife is named Elizabeth is shown as a Window Cleaner until his death in 1928. No mention was found of a "Master" window cleaner, probably that he had a lot of experience in all those years. Back to the "Journeyman" he would have been the go between with manufacturer and purchaser not necessarily the skilled maker of the items. Birmingham brass makers were world renowned for their skills however, especially in the making of bedsteads and bicycle frames.
 
The original 'Journeyman' term applied to those who had fulfilled an Indentured Apprenticeship and worked for an identical term in the service of the Master. So a father - often with the means to afford to pay a Master Craftsman (skilled in whatever trade he wished his son (or more rarely a daughter) to learn) - would contact the Master and agree an Indenture fee. From 1760 onwards this would include a Duty Tax which had to be paid by the Master to the Revenue within two months of the Indenture date. The Master's fee would then be paid all up front or over a set period, which varied from Master to Master and trade to trade. Once signed sealed and delivered the new Apprentice would be committed to serve the Master (and join his household with food and tools provided but no wage as such) until his term was served, from between 5 -7 years, the latter being the norm.

Once the term was complete the Master would be required to issue his ex-Apprentice a Trade Certificate as proof that he is now a skilled tradesman, and who from now on can earn a wage, (out of which he must provide his own board and lodgings). The tradesman is now known as a 'Journeyman' and providing he was bound by a formal Indenture, will be further bound to offer his services to the Master for the same period as the Apprenticeship. Only by following this course can a Journeyman hope to become a Guild recognised 'Master' in his own right, and of course offer his own Indentures.

I have a Master Carpenter/Wheelwright in my family and luckily his father - a Yeoman Farmer in North Warwickshire - in 1733 (when his son was 13) could afford the Indenture Fee of £14.00 (worth about £2,500 in today's money). His son went on to serve a 7 year term as Apprentice, and the same again as Journeyman; finally making Master c 1748. He married shortly after this (Apprentices by the way are not allowed to marry until out of time, and even as Journeymen, can usually ill afford to). He ran his own workshop in Coventry, joined the Wheelwrights Guild and took on Apprentices. Eventually, as a serving Guild Member he was sponsored for Freeman status, which he eventually earned by Royal Charter in 1775. With that amount of work and dedication I think he fully deserved it.
 
Probably not overly important perhaps, but for the sake of accuracy, the duty tax on Apprentice Indentures came into being in 1710 and not 1760. Sorry about that.
 
pjmburns said:
There is an Alfred Baker baptised at Christ Church in November 1866. Is that him? Parents William and Harriet
0e35a3c5-3a13-4133-bf33-235c7d9dc1c8
Click to expand...
Thanks very much & so sorry for the delay in replying. I've checked them out & it's not him. In 4 years of looking I must have followed almost all the Alfred's b1866c - the only fact I have is when he married he gave his father as also Alfred Richard but I can't find him either. I have a best guess family but there are many discrepancies. Hence I've been trying to find him via his occupations. Many thanks for your help
 
Morturn said:
I am not so sure if a master window cleaner was seen as a skilled occupation, meaning I just don’t to any degree of certainty.


I would however say that most certainly a journeyman brass founder was actually highly skilled. It seems that people who worked in metal, brass and bronze were highly skilled in an occupation that has a history extending back many thousands of years and were highly valued.


Usage of language does change over time, but generally a journeyman was a person who had completed a recognised apprenticeship, normally in the construction industry or building trade crafts. As a journeyman you could then apply to one of the craft guilds to become a master craftsman. I was a building craft apprentice and still have a set of indentures all signed, stamped and sealed.


Birmingham did have a distinction of allowing people to work without being members of trade guilds.
Click to expand...
Morturn said:
I am not so sure if a master window cleaner was seen as a skilled occupation, meaning I just don’t to any degree of certainty.


I would however say that most certainly a journeyman brass founder was actually highly skilled. It seems that people who worked in metal, brass and bronze were highly skilled in an occupation that has a history extending back many thousands of years and were highly valued.


Usage of language does change over time, but generally a journeyman was a person who had completed a recognised apprenticeship, normally in the construction industry or building trade crafts. As a journeyman you could then apply to one of the craft guilds to become a master craftsman. I was a building craft apprentice and still have a set of indentures all signed, stamped and sealed.


Birmingham did have a distinction of allowing people to work without being members of trade guilds.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much for the information, really useful. This gg'f is a mystery, not found on census's 1871~91 or a birth record so I was focussing on his occupations in the hope of tracing him before 1894. I'm trying to imagine being a window cleaner then, assuming only the big houses/factories etc would need/be able to afford window cleaners & I can't even find any window cleaning companies in the trades directories. Then I'm thinking why go from brass founder to window cleaning unless for better pay or because of an injury when he comes from a family of jewellers, if I've guessed the correct one.
How great that you have your indenture documents, a treasure.
Sent with my apologies for the delay in replying, best wishes
 
boomy said:
Having served a 5 year apprenticeship myself in the motor trade 60 years ago, I acquired an interesting copy of an Apprentices Indenture off eBay some months ago, for the apprenticeship of a William Herbert Beauchamp, who lived in Whitmore Road, Small Heath, and served a 4 1/2 year apprenticeship with Alldays & Onions Pneumatic Engineering Co. Ltd.
Starting in 1894 his wages were 6 shillings per week, rising to 10 shillings per week in 1898, and his mother had to pay Alldays a £60 Premium for his apprenticeship.
His terms included that "the said William Herbert Beauchamp shall not play at cards, dice tables, nor any unlawful game, and shall not haunt taverns nor ale houses".
William was working for Wolseley Motors Ltd., in 1921, in a managerial position, and was then living in South Yardley, so he did well after serving his "time" with Alldays.
Boomy
Click to expand...
I love to read indentures when I find them online. Good for William. Many thanks for the information
 
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