Poverty Line 1839 to 1900

[ASY]

Hello, For the last 10 plus years, I have been working on an on-going project to create a coloured poverty line map for Birmingham. Over the years I have dropped in and out with my research and studies. Similar to Charles Booth 'Life and Labour of the people in London' and his coloured maps, as well as Benjamin Seebohm Rowntree and other Historians, I have created my own methodology to create a coloured Poverty Line Map.

Using the 1881 census and my research records for income and expenditure for each household, I am able to ascertain if the family are in poverty or very poor, poor, moderate or comfortable. I have just finished creating a website that explains all. https://birmingham1889.wixsite.com/birmingham1889

The reason for this post is, it takes me months to complete one street. I have downloaded more or less 140 streets census records. If anybody is interested in assisting me in growing the map, please let me know. I am not looking at any commercial incentives, its purely a research thesis that some people I hope will find interesting. I need individuals who can update shared google spreadsheets for various streets using my data records.

Thank you Andy

 

[Morturn]

Good morning Andy, welcome to Birmingham History Forum. This sounds to me like a fascinating project that could place some context into the understanding of the living conditions of many Birmingham households. How we look back and see Victorian Birmingham certainly something I think about a lot. The photographic records often seem to show wealth and prosperity, but in my view, we had an astronomical differential in wealth and health equality.

I hope you will be able to find help and support this this and maybe also update us of progress and any conclusions you form.

 

[ASY]

Hello, For the last 10 plus years, I have been working on an on-going project to create a coloured poverty line map for Birmingham. Over the years I have dropped in and out with my research and studies. Similar to Charles Booth 'Life and Labour of the people in London' and his coloured maps, as well as Benjamin Seebohm Rowntree and other Historians, I have created my own methodology to create a coloured Poverty Line Map.

Using the 1881 census and my research records for income and expenditure for each household, I am able to ascertain if the family are in poverty or very poor, poor, moderate or comfortable. I have just finished creating a website that explains all. https://birmingham1889.wixsite.com/birmingham1889

The reason for this post is, it takes me months to complete one street. I have downloaded more or less 140 streets census records. If anybody is interested in assisting me in growing the map, please let me know. I am not looking at any commercial incentives, its purely a research thesis that some people I hope will find interesting. I need individuals who can update shared google spreadsheets for various streets using my data records.

Thank you Andy


View attachment 180293View attachment 180292

Good morning Andy, welcome to Birmingham History Forum. This sounds to me like a fascinating project that could place some context into the understanding of the living conditions of many Birmingham households. How we look back and see Victorian Birmingham certainly something I think about a lot. The photographic records often seem to show wealth and prosperity, but in my view, we had an astronomical differential in wealth and health equality.

I hope you will be able to find help and support this this and maybe also update us of progress and any conclusions you form.

Thank you for your reply, I will update on progress. My goal is to complete 140 Streets with around 42000 households, this will highlight the way of life was for many families, which was I believe below the poverty line.

 

[ASY]

Hello to all, having worked on my project of 10 years (actually 15) for finding out the poverty line and standard of living for families. I am now coming to the end of my research for 12038 households and over 100 streets. Detailed information of each households is available on my website https://birmingham1889.wixsite.com/birmingham1889 which shows, individuals and occupants, (including lodgers) their occupation and income, the overall household Income and their expenditure. A concluding calculation showing a poverty line grading from A through to E. E being below the poverty line and only eating meals equivalent to a workhouse diet.

My research has used the census records for 1881 and concentrated on all the streets in Birmingham North. I have uploaded 5.5k households to the website and will upload the remaining 6k tomorrow. The attached image is a sample of one households detailed poverty line rating.

I hope this might be of interest to somebody. In Birmingham North the average poverty line rating was 39% of all households were living below the poverty line with a grading of E and 45% were living with a grading of D (d being very poor and meals of only being standard,. ie no nurishments.

Cheers Andy Yarwood
)

 

[Morturn]

Good evening, Andy, many thanks for the update I am pleased to see you have made some significant progress. Super work.

I am wondering what conclusions you may draw from your findings relating to the impact of poverty on heath and welbeing.

It is a subject I find fascinating and did start to look at the proportion of guinea graves to monuments in both Warstone and Keyhill Cemetery’s that seemed to indicate around 60% of burials were done for people who could not afford more that the guinea burial.

My view is most certainly that poverty isn't a lack of character; it's a lack of cash. Poverty is disempowering and disenabling that leaves people constantly feeling wrenched, unempowered and a failure. Poverty is also a best kept secret, the people in poverty would do their utmost best to keep it a secret.

Poverty closes too many doors to the opportunity of getting out of it, leaving people in poor hosing conditions that they did not choose to live like that. It’s quite easy and unproductive to blame people for being in poverty, especially when the people doing the blaming had never experienced true poverty or the limitations poverty imposed on people preventing them from getting out of it.

 

[Richard Dye]

Good evening, Andy, many thanks for the update I am pleased to see you have made some significant progress. Super work.

I am wondering what conclusions you may draw from your findings relating to the impact of poverty on heath and welbeing.

It is a subject I find fascinating and did start to look at the proportion of guinea graves to monuments in both Warstone and Keyhill Cemetery’s that seemed to indicate around 60% of burials were done for people who could not afford more that the guinea burial.

My view is most certainly that poverty isn't a lack of character; it's a lack of cash. Poverty is disempowering and disenabling that leaves people constantly feeling wrenched, unempowered and a failure. Poverty is also a best kept secret, the people in poverty would do their utmost best to keep it a secret.

Poverty closes too many doors to the opportunity of getting out of it, leaving people in poor hosing conditions that they did not choose to live like that. It’s quite easy and unproductive to blame people for being in poverty, especially when the people doing the blaming had never experienced true poverty or the limitations poverty imposed on people preventing them from getting out of it.

Mort, I think you are absolutely correct and those “closing the doors” do not feel the pain and angst of those behind the doors and might in fact prefer it that way! My apologies for feeling that way, it is however a recollection.

 

[cba]

Hello to all, having worked on my project of 10 years for finding out the poverty line and standard of living for families. I am now coming to the end of my research for 12038 households and over 100 streets. Detailed information of each households is available on my website https://birmingham1889.wixsite.com/birmingham1889 which shows, individuals and occupants, (including lodgers) their occupation and income, the overall household Income and their expenditure. A concluding calculation showing a poverty line grading from A through to E. E being below the poverty line and only eating meals equivalent to a workhouse diet.

My research has used the census records for 1881 and concentrated on all the streets in Birmingham North. I have uploaded 5.5k households to the website and will upload the remaining 6k tomorrow. The attached image is a sample of one households detailed poverty line rating.

I hope this might be of interest to somebody. In Birmingham North the average poverty line rating was 39% of all households were living below the poverty line with a grading of E and 45% were living with a grading of D (d being very poor and meals of only being standard,. ie no nurishments.

Cheers Andy Yarwood
View attachment 186623)

Thank you for sharing this. I have found my G G grandfather Samuel Hope in Gt King st. All the family were jewellers but we're living on the poverty line. Parents and 3 working sons in 1889.

 

[ASY]

Good evening, Andy, many thanks for the update I am pleased to see you have made some significant progress. Super work.

I am wondering what conclusions you may draw from your findings relating to the impact of poverty on heath and welbeing.

It is a subject I find fascinating and did start to look at the proportion of guinea graves to monuments in both Warstone and Keyhill Cemetery’s that seemed to indicate around 60% of burials were done for people who could not afford more that the guinea burial.

My view is most certainly that poverty isn't a lack of character; it's a lack of cash. Poverty is disempowering and disenabling that leaves people constantly feeling wrenched, unempowered and a failure. Poverty is also a best kept secret, the people in poverty would do their utmost best to keep it a secret.

Poverty closes too many doors to the opportunity of getting out of it, leaving people in poor hosing conditions that they did not choose to live like that. It’s quite easy and unproductive to blame people for being in poverty, especially when the people doing the blaming had never experienced true poverty or the limitations poverty imposed on people preventing them from getting out of it.

Hello Mortum. Having now completed the data, I am going to start delving into the causes and I agree, almost certainly it is not really to do with the character of individuals but the situation that they find themselves in. The rapid rise of Industrial Birmingham and population growth giving way to almost all green spaces and fresh air. The construction of poorly built housing with unscrupulous Landlords creating an increase in prevalent diseases due to unhealthy sanitary conditions.

When you look at each family household, a very large proportion had not one but families or multiple lodgers to help with the rent. Children working from 13 but often 11 years or even younger, had to work as this was a need to help feed the family. On my website in the methodology section, I explain further of expenditure and the effects of poverty.

Also over the next few months I will be finishing creating my colour coded maps for Birmingham using the Warwickshire XIV.1 range of town maps. The idea is to highlight the extent of how many pubs, back-to-backs, Industrial and other important buildings there were in central Birmingham in the 1880's. Pubs are interesting as quite often every street has more than one, creating a temptation that men found hard to avoid and the father blowing his weekly wage on beer.

I would like to create a blog on the website to discuss these areas further, there are some fascinating books (I have a few original 19th century publications). Scenes in Slumland was a series of articles (can't remember of the top of my head which Newspaper) on poverty and the causes of, J Cummings articles also are interesting but depressing reads.

No family chooses to be in poverty and I believe the system created caused the existence of misery and despair, 12000 households showing 84.58% were very very poor or below the Poverty line. The ten worst streets to live in Birmingham North were, Bricklin Street, St Stephens Street, Harford Street, Villa Street, Ayslum Road, York Street, Little King Street, Macdonald Street and Guest Street. ( I will be creating a new page to upload the street summary and full ranking list.

 

[ASY]

Thank you for sharing this. I have found my G G grandfather Samuel Hope in Gt King st. All the family were jewellers but we're living on the poverty line. Parents and 3 working sons in 1889.

 

[Astoness]

hi andy what a fantastic thing you are doing...i am going to try and find time to look at your web page...as an aside i notice that you list villa st as one of the most poverty hit places...having done my family research i have found my ancestors living there from 1861 right through to 1958 which is when i moved into villa st aged 5..we left the street in 1972 due to demo..

lyn

 

[ASY]

Thank you for sharing this. I have found my G G grandfather Samuel Hope in Gt King st. All the family were jewellers but we're living on the poverty line. Parents and 3 working sons in 1889.

Hi, yes I have him on my list ( although error my side I thought I put Great King Street with Little King Street but I didn't) I will complete Great King Street this week but I have completed a quick calculation for you and have attached a pdf showing the income and expenditure. I have them as a grading of D this being very very poor but just off the poverty Line. For George Hope his occupation was a watch maker, of which I would normally change to a clock-maker but these salary is quite high, he may well have been an apprentice and if he was, would nudge the family into grade E. However I entered him as an average salary for his age group.

Also the two younger sons occupation state Jellewer, the same as the father. I would probably guess again would have been apprentices or errand-boys. The youngest being only 12 suggests he worked with his father.

The family however though were very very poor.

 

[ASY]

hi andy what a fantastic thing you are doing...i am going to try and find time to look at your web page...as an aside i notice that you list villa st as one of the most poverty hit places...having done my family research i have found my ancestors living there from 1861 right through to 1958 which is when i moved into villa st aged 5..we left the street in 1972 due to demo..

lyn

Hi Lyn, Strewth just short of a 100 years wow. Yes I have 71 no households for Villa street with a ranking of 98th out of 101. The worst family in the Street was no 10 Mr Doherty with no occupation, his wife was the only person bringing income into the household, she worked as a Laundress. Looking at the street, you can see why its ranking is not so good as it's probably down to larger family households.

There are 356 people living in 71 house's meaning an average of 5 per house (3 households had 10) and out of the 356 people 221 didn't work or were too young. the street also had a very high number of widows 17no which means 24% of all households. One of these was Charlotte Williams B28 Villa St 3

Williams Charlotte, Age - 36, Head Widow, Occupation & estimated weekly wage - 0
Williams Arthur, Age - 16, Son , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Lapidary Black (Ornament ) Maker 12.59
Williams Charlotte, Age - 14, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Jewellers Polisher 5.83
Williams Annie, Age - 11, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Scholar 0
Williams Charles, Age - 9, Son , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Scholar 0
Williams Leah, Age - 4, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - 0
Williams Ada, Age - 0, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - 0

Seven in the household, Charlotte does not work and only her 16 year old son and 14 year old daughter are earning money for the family. As her youngest is less than 1 year, she must have lost her husband not too long before and no doubt loosing the Head of the House's income.

 

[Richard Dye]

Hi Lyn, Strewth just short of a 100 years wow. Yes I have 71 no households for Villa street with a ranking of 98th out of 101. The worst family in the Street was no 10 Mr Doherty with no occupation, his wife was the only person bringing income into the household, she worked as a Laundress. Looking at the street, you can see why its ranking is not so good as it's probably down to larger family households.

There are 356 people living in 71 house's meaning an average of 5 per house (3 households had 10) and out of the 356 people 221 didn't work or were too young. the street also had a very high number of widows 17no which means 24% of all households. One of these was Charlotte Williams B28 Villa St 3

Williams Charlotte, Age - 36, Head Widow, Occupation & estimated weekly wage - 0
Williams Arthur, Age - 16, Son , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Lapidary Black (Ornament ) Maker 12.59
Williams Charlotte, Age - 14, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Jewellers Polisher 5.83
Williams Annie, Age - 11, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Scholar 0
Williams Charles, Age - 9, Son , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Scholar 0
Williams Leah, Age - 4, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - 0
Williams Ada, Age - 0, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - 0

Seven in the household, Charlotte does not work and only her 16 year old son and 14 year old daughter are earning money for the family. As her youngest is less than 1 year, she must have lost her husband not too long before and no doubt loosing the Head of the House's income.

My father’s family were from 16 Alfred Street in Aston. I was born in 1943 and when our house was bombed we lived there for two plus years. There were four of us plus 8 in my fathers family = 12 with an out house and cold running water in the kitchen, hot water if you could afford the coal.
I think your work is wonderful, however I think you count per house is very low. When I was 15/16 many homes/houses had multiple families with counts of 6 or 7 at least.

 

[Astoness]

Hi Lyn, Strewth just short of a 100 years wow. Yes I have 71 no households for Villa street with a ranking of 98th out of 101. The worst family in the Street was no 10 Mr Doherty with no occupation, his wife was the only person bringing income into the household, she worked as a Laundress. Looking at the street, you can see why its ranking is not so good as it's probably down to larger family households.

There are 356 people living in 71 house's meaning an average of 5 per house (3 households had 10) and out of the 356 people 221 didn't work or were too young. the street also had a very high number of widows 17no which means 24% of all households. One of these was Charlotte Williams B28 Villa St 3

Williams Charlotte, Age - 36, Head Widow, Occupation & estimated weekly wage - 0
Williams Arthur, Age - 16, Son , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Lapidary Black (Ornament ) Maker 12.59
Williams Charlotte, Age - 14, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Jewellers Polisher 5.83
Williams Annie, Age - 11, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Scholar 0
Williams Charles, Age - 9, Son , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - Scholar 0
Williams Leah, Age - 4, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - 0
Williams Ada, Age - 0, Daughter , Occupation & estimated weekly wage - 0

Seven in the household, Charlotte does not work and only her 16 year old son and 14 year old daughter are earning money for the family. As her youngest is less than 1 year, she must have lost her husband not too long before and no doubt loosing the Head of the House's income.

hi andy although the williams were not my family i do know that the houses were in very poor condition...villa st was cut very early on and ran from bridge st west over farm st then over nursery road ending up at wills st..my lot lived at some point in all of those sections of the street..before my grandparents and our dad and his siblings moved to the new maisonettes in villa st (late 1930s they lived in hunters vale which is off villa st...very poor housing made even worse when hockley brook used to flood...dad told me as soon as a maisonette became available to move into his mom insisted they be given a top floor place so that when the brook flooded again they would not be affected...


lyn

 

[ASY]

Hello Richard, this is true but the figures are taken from the census records and my 5 per house is an average for Villa Street. Although many households do have large families and in my spreadsheets calculations I work to the possibility for a family household containing upto 20 individuals but there also many households with only 1, 2 or 3 people. Once I have uploaded all the summary sheets for each street I can work out what the percentage split is.

For Villa Street though, 25 houses have 6 to 10 people per house and 17no house have between 1 and 3. It will be interesting to see which street has the highest number of people per household. Won't take me too long to do this.

Thats amazing for your side though, 12 people. I can let you know out of the 12000 households, how many had 12 or more. I also remember going to the outside loo at my Nan's house in the 70's, the gap at the foot of the door and that draft. I can feel it now....

 

[Astoness]

Hello Richard, this is true but the figures are taken from the census records and my 5 per house is an average for Villa Street. Although many households do have large families and in my spreadsheets calculations I work to the possibility for a family household containing upto 20 individuals but there also many households with only 1, 2 or 3 people. Once I have uploaded all the summary sheets for each street I can work out what the percentage split is.

For Villa Street though, 25 houses have 6 to 10 people per house and 17no house have between 1 and 3. It will be interesting to see which street has the highest number of people per household. Won't take me too long to do this.

Thats amazing for your side though, 12 people. I can let you know out of the 12000 households, how many had 12 or more. I also remember going to the outside loo at my Nan's house in the 70's, the gap at the foot of the door and that draft. I can feel it now....

yes and we moan now about the cold but how very different life is now from back in the day...i was born in nans back to back down paddington st (as said then moving to villa st aged 5) and at nans we had to go up the yard to the shared toilets...nan had lived there since about 1904 she lost her hubby in 1938 and was left with 3 young girls to bring up alone which must have been made even more difficult during ww2..held down 3 jobs to do so and never remarried and she flately refused to move until almost all the houses around her had been demolished..this would be around 1968 ish..she went to live in tile cross but was never truely happy there so although times were hard living in back to backs etc there was a massive sense of community spirit which so many folk missed after being forced to move..sorry to rumble on but i cant help it when it comes to talking about my family history

lyn..

 

[Morturn]

Hello Mortum. Having now completed the data, I am going to start delving into the causes and I agree, almost certainly it is not really to do with the character of individuals but the situation that they find themselves in. The rapid rise of Industrial Birmingham and population growth giving way to almost all green spaces and fresh air. The construction of poorly built housing with unscrupulous Landlords creating an increase in prevalent diseases due to unhealthy sanitary conditions.

When you look at each family household, a very large proportion had not one but families or multiple lodgers to help with the rent. Children working from 13 but often 11 years or even younger, had to work as this was a need to help feed the family. On my website in the methodology section, I explain further of expenditure and the effects of poverty.

Also over the next few months I will be finishing creating my colour coded maps for Birmingham using the Warwickshire XIV.1 range of town maps. The idea is to highlight the extent of how many pubs, back-to-backs, Industrial and other important buildings there were in central Birmingham in the 1880's. Pubs are interesting as quite often every street has more than one, creating a temptation that men found hard to avoid and the father blowing his weekly wage on beer.

I would like to create a blog on the website to discuss these areas further, there are some fascinating books (I have a few original 19th century publications). Scenes in Slumland was a series of articles (can't remember of the top of my head which Newspaper) on poverty and the causes of, J Cummings articles also are interesting but depressing reads.

No family chooses to be in poverty and I believe the system created caused the existence of misery and despair, 12000 households showing 84.58% were very very poor or below the Poverty line. The ten worst streets to live in Birmingham North were, Bricklin Street, St Stephens Street, Harford Street, Villa Street, Ayslum Road, York Street, Little King Street, Macdonald Street and Guest Street. ( I will be creating a new page to upload the street summary and full ranking list.

You may find reading Steven Johnson’s The Ghost Map interesting. While the core theme is John Snow and how he developed epidemiology that whole work is under pinned by an excellent description of poverty, living conditions and overcrowding.

 

[ASY]

You may find reading Steven Johnson’s The Ghost Map interesting. While the core theme is John Snow and how he developed epidemiology that whole work is under pinned by an excellent description of poverty, living conditions and overcrowding.

Thank you, will take a look

 

[ASY]

Attached is my first draft of the summary sheet for each streets poverty line and its ranking.

 

[ASY]

yes and we moan now about the cold but how very different life is now from back in the day...i was born in nans back to back down paddington st (as said then moving to villa st aged 5) and at nans we had to go up the yard to the shared toilets...nan had lived there since about 1904 she lost her hubby in 1938 and was left with 3 young girls to bring up alone which must have been made even more difficult during ww2..held down 3 jobs to do so and never remarried and she flately refused to move until almost all the houses around her had been demolished..this would be around 1968 ish..she went to live in tile cross but was never truely happy there so although times were hard living in back to backs etc there was a massive sense of community spirit which so many folk missed after being forced to move..sorry to rumble on but i cant help it when it comes to talking about my family history

lyn..

I think your right, life was very hard but the community was strong, something we seem to have lost now. I do miss visiting those days of visiting Nan & Grandad on both sides, the banter and especially the arguments which were always fun to watch.

I'm with you on the family history, after 20 odd years I think my family are not so keen....

 

[Richard Dye]

yes and we moan now about the cold but how very different life is now from back in the day...i was born in nans back to back down paddington st (as said then moving to villa st aged 5) and at nans we had to go up the yard to the shared toilets...nan had lived there since about 1904 she lost her hubby in 1938 and was left with 3 young girls to bring up alone which must have been made even more difficult during ww2..held down 3 jobs to do so and never remarried and she flately refused to move until almost all the houses around her had been demolished..this would be around 1968 ish..she went to live in tile cross but was never truely happy there so although times were hard living in back to backs etc there was a massive sense of community spirit which so many folk missed after being forced to move..sorry to rumble on but i cant help it when it comes to talking about my family history

lyn..

Lyn, I think it’s good to vent occasionally! Your family mirrors so many others of those days. Regardless of what the census says, we will never really know how many lived in some houses, but they were our homes!

 

[Pedrocut]

Of interest could be the Annual Report of the Health of Aston Manor for the year ending December 31st 1894 (Earliest I can find ?)

https://archive.org/details/b28814058/page/n35/mode/1up

 

[mikejee]

I have recently come accross a book, which apparently was published in 2020, but has only recently appeared on Ebay/amazon etc. It is one volume of a series, this one concerning Birmingham (others for other towns) entitled Labour & the Poor, which comprises a series of "letters", though I would describe them as articles, written in the Morning Chronicle in the two years from October 1848 following an article by Henry Mayhew. Have not had a chance to fully read it yet, but it is very interesting .

Labour and the Poor Volume IX: Birmingham... by Mackay, Charles

Buy Labour and the Poor Volume IX: Birmingham (9) (The Morning Chronicle's Labour and the Poor) by Mackay, Charles (ISBN: 9781913515195) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

 

[cba]

Of interest could be the Annual Report of the Health of Aston Manor for the year ending December 31st 1894 (Earliest I can find ?)

https://archive.org/details/b28814058/page/n35/mode/1up

Of interest could be the Annual Report of the Health of Aston Manor for the year ending December 31st 1894 (Earliest I can find ?)

https://archive.org/details/b28814058/page/n35/mode/1up

Causes of death of children is worth looking at. Not just infectious diseases but deaths through malnutrition.My Grandmother was born in the area the year before this report. A real eye opener.

 

[Nick Phillips]

Causes of death of children is worth looking at. Not just infectious diseases but deaths through malnutrition.My Grandmother was born in the area the year before this report. A real eye opener.

I cant remember where or when I read this.
The first born male child was often named after his father. But knowing that children often died in first year of his life, if a second child born he would also take his fathers name.

Nick Phillips

 

[Astoness]

hi andy i have moved your thread from help advise and tricks to our birmingham wider topics section...i feel it deserves a more appropriate place on the forum

lyn

 

[ASY]

I have recently come accross a book, which apparently was published in 2020, but has only recently appeared on Ebay/amazon etc. It is one volume of a series, this one concerning Birmingham (others for other towns) entitled Labour & the Poor, which comprises a series of "letters", though I would describe them as articles, written in the Morning Chronicle in the two years from October 1848 following an article by Henry Mayhew. Have not had a chance to fully read it yet, but it is very interesting .

Labour and the Poor Volume IX: Birmingham... by Mackay, Charles

Buy Labour and the Poor Volume IX: Birmingham (9) (The Morning Chronicle's Labour and the Poor) by Mackay, Charles (ISBN: 9781913515195) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

I am definitely putting that on Santa's list. I also downloaded quite a lot of articles from the Morning Article from 1850 & 1851 and yes entitled Labour and the Poor, although all saying "from our special correspondent" so thats cool have the author now. Thank you

Attached one of the articles

 

[ASY]

Of interest could be the Annual Report of the Health of Aston Manor for the year ending December 31st 1894 (Earliest I can find ?)

https://archive.org/details/b28814058/page/n35/mode/1up

Thank you yes that good, I did take copies from the Birmingham Library of the 1886 map and research from the health office at the time Alfred Hill thats hows the number of deaths from Scarlet fever, measles and typhoid fever alarming. But this is more in the area I am working on so thank you for the link

 

[ASY]

I cant remember where or when I read this.
The first born male child was often named after his father. But knowing that children often died in first year of his life, if a second child born he would also take his fathers name.

Nick Phillips

Ahh that would explain alot when I went through all the census records, I could never understand and thought it was recorded wrongly.

 

[ASY]

hi andy i have moved your thread from help advise and tricks to our birmingham wider topics section...i feel it deserves a more appropriate place on the forum

lyn

Thank you Lyn