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Nice to join you all

JohnT

JohnT

Warstock Boy
What a fantastic site and forum! I am a bit of a long lost exile of Birmingham so I know I am going to enjoy venturing back there to talk with some of you.

I struck out from Brum (to go travelling, and then back into education) in my twenties, some 35 years ago. I never came back. My parents died around that time and I have lost contact with almost all relatives, so the people I love and live with now know little of my 'core' identity.

Ridiculously late, I feel the need to revive that core somewhat. I am trying to trace back through both my parents' family lines (my dad a Taylor and my mom a Rathbone) and the trail so far has taken me back from Warstock, where I was born, to the Aston & Deritend areas of the old City where their parents were brought up and most of their older ancestors seemed to have operated - at least back as far as the simpler records tell it (i.e. to the 1830s).

There's all sorts of threads I want to follow, but my priorities at the moment are these:

1. I want to find out what army regiment my dad, Harry Taylor, served with during WW2? He was an army cook, but ended up getting badly burned out in Egypt. Amazingly, two German POWs saved his life in the incident and if I can get his army history and trace records of the incident I am hoping this will lead me to Germany where I can thank these men's families.

2. I am intrigued that my grandfather on my mother's side, Arthur Rathbone, in 1906 played for a football team called Smallheath Rovers (I have the team photo). I believe this team converted its name to Birmingham City Football Club later that year.

3. The maiden name of Arthur Rathbone's mother Ann (sometimes known as Hannah) was 'Gold'. I wonder whether the Gold's in my background were Jewish, or simply people with origins in metalwork or whatever?

4. Since my stock are all labouring (but aspiringly respectable) working class folk (the men mostly illiterate brass workers and the women busy wiving and mothering), who began our modern story from Aston/Deritend, I imagine they were once displaced farm workers who came into Birmingham for work. I've no evidence other than a rumour that there might have been a Bromsgrove connection, but I'd love to know their (and therefore my) earlier origins.

I'd love too, to talk about the central and south Birmingham districts (on to the Worcestershire and Warwickshire countryside as well) and times that I knew so well in the 50s, 60s and early 70s.

So there's my rather big opener as a newbie, if anyone sees a topic or thread they'd like to pick up on, they'll find a warm-hearted Warstock Boy will reply to them. And as and when I'm able I'll throw in some further questions and contributions.
 
Hi John,

And welcome to the forum. So many of my ancestors were in Deritend and Bordesley in the 1800's, brassfounders, fire iron makers, white smiths and not forgetting the chimney sweep.
Hope you enjoy it here.

Ann
 
Hi John: Nice to have you on board the forum. Great intro. Hope that
someone will pick up on one of those questions and help you out.
The genealogical buffs on this site will need a bit of info and you will be surprised at what they will find. Good luck John.
 
Welcome to the Forum John, what an interesting intro. Almost a potted history. I am sure if you post your queries in the genealogy sections with full names and as much information you know of, you will be surprised how quickly our "experts" will help.
 
hi john and welcome..its never to late to start researching your family history and i wish you well...

astoness:):):)
 
Hi John,
I've just joined this site too. What a find.
Forty-five years ago I lived in Selly Oak, south Birmingham and knew Warwickshire and Worcestershire quite well e.g. the Lickey Hills, Worcester, Malvern, Tanworth in Arden.
Have a good day,
Janet H
 
Hello John,

Birmingham City were originally known as Small Heath Alliance, then Small Heath, then in 1905 They became Birmingham and in 1943 Birmingham City. In 1906 They moved to their present home St Andrews.

I'm not sure if the following may be connected to your family. It mentions a Arthur Rathbone, and another of the names you listed, Brown. Also the date below, 1908 is reasonably near the date you mentioned:

Nellie AMOS, b. 1886? (sometimes known as Nellie Brown) who married Arthur Rathbone 12/7/1908 at St Saviours Church, Saltley Parish, Birmingham. Nellie was daughter of Solomon AMOS and Leah (ne Brown), and she had brothers Joseph, Solomon, Samuel, Harry, and sisters Elsie, Florrie, Leah and Elise. Nellie was brought up by her grandmother 'Granny Brown', wife of Harry Brown, a butcher who was deceased by 1908.
 
John. Firstly, a big WELCOME to the site. That was a great intro you put up there. Hope you find help and assistance whilst you are perusing the rest of our great site. Enjoy, Barry.
 
Welcome John I am sure you will enjoy sharing your history, and if we can help.:)
 
Welcome home Brum:)

I wish you every success with your family search
 
Hi again John,

It looks like your Ann Gold might be the Ann Gold in my husband's tree (not jewish). Ann Gold (born Aston Birmingham 1859) married Henry Rathbone in 1878 (Birmingham 1878 Oct Dec qtr. volume 6d page 230). And the Ann Gold in my husband's tree is not with her parents on the 81 census. If it is the same one, Ann's parents were Henry Gold, a white smith born Birmingham 1824 and Jane, born King's Heath in 1824. And in 1861 they are living in Darwin Street Deritend.

Ann
 
John,

I see now, that someone on Ancestry has Ann Gold as wife of Henry Rathbone, but with parents Daniel and Margaret, although it doesn't look quite right. So, if correct, not the one in my husband's tree.

Ann
 
Evening all

I'm just home from taking my grandaughter to see Wall-E (marvellous film) and found all these terrific replies. Got to cook tea now but I'll be back later to respond.

:grinsmile:
 
OK

First let me thank the following for your warm welcomes:

Otherhalf - thankyou, and I agree with your motto about history and the future. It prompts me to add a personal dimension by suggesting that we realise ourselves through a process of remembering: remembering who we always were and therefore are bound to be!

JennyAnn and SilviaSays - thankyou both, I appreciate your comments about my intro and yes, I intend to follow your advice in seeking help in the geneological threads. Actually, I paid a first, quick visit last night because a quick search on the 'Rathbone' name found a member called Lindz who was seeking help herself. I was able to introduce her to a very helpful and resourceful american woman who runs what's called "The Rathbone Register" - and Lindz has already come back to me to say she's made contact and achieved a research breakthrough.

JSH - Greetings fellow newbie, how nice to share the excitement of finding this lovely forum with you. I note you have touched base with me in regards the southern fringe of Birmingham and I hope we'll stay in touch about that and to share progress reports on how we're getting on here. To be honest, just hearing you mention the Lickey Hills has got me going already: my parents took me out to "the Lickeys" many times as a child and I remember it mostly because I always seemed to end up being bought a candy floss there! I have memories of Selly Oak too: not just for too many hospital visits (!), but also because I attended Bournville Juniors School up the road from Selly Oak for about three years (while my parents ran a corner shop next to Cotteridge Park); because I worked there in my late teens (in a small plastic-injection-mould-making toolmakers); and because it's where I first discovered curry (in the form of what the curry-house owner called a cheap "Businessman's Lunch") - been hooked ever since!

BuzzM, Wendy and Alf - thankyou all too for your hello's, and can I compliment you Alf on your choice of motto. You call yourself a "diplomat" and I can rather see why through your appreciation of "listening". I work in the 'people business' and I often find myself saying to someone "You can't listen with your mouth you know".

I hope all of you here who have popped in to say hello will not disappear. Do tell me more about yourselves and your Birmingham lives.

AnnB and Beamish. A big smile to you too. I am going to do more detailed replies to you both as you have presented me with most interesting information and both of you have immediately hit the target!

:-))

G G Jean - I nearly missed acknowledging you! Thanks for the hello and for your motto: Live and let Live - probably the most well known and probably one that will never be bettered eh? A perfect one to end this response acknowledging.
 
Ann B said:
Hi John,

1. And welcome to the forum. So many of my ancestors were in Deritend and Bordesley in the 1800's, brassfounders, fire iron makers, white smiths and not forgetting the chimney sweep.
Hope you enjoy it here.

2. I see now, that someone on Ancestry has Ann Gold as wife of Henry Rathbone, but with parents Daniel and Margaret, although it doesn't look quite right. So, if correct, not the one in my husband's tree.

3. It looks like your Ann Gold might be the Ann Gold in my husband's tree (not jewish). Ann Gold (born Aston Birmingham 1859) married Henry Rathbone in 1878 (Birmingham 1878 Oct Dec qtr. volume 6d page 230). And the Ann Gold in my husband's tree is not with her parents on the 81 census. If it is the same one, Ann's parents were Henry Gold, a white smith born Birmingham 1824 and Jane, born King's Heath in 1824. And in 1861 they are living in Darwin Street Deritend.

Ann
Click to expand...

hello Ann B,

Thanks so much for the welcome. Its great to hear from someone with the same name as my mom, and you've raised lots of good stuff here for me!

Re 1. above - I haven't found a chimney sweep yet, but all the other professions you mention are featuring in my ancestors' records. I wonder if you know the excellent book: 'Birmingham: The First Manufacturing Town in the the World 1760 - 1840' by Dr Eric Hopkins? I'm sure you'd enjoy it if you don't. It has plenty of references to Deritend and Bordesley, and a lot on the Brass Industry (see pages 44-48 in particular).

Re 2. & 3. above - I too think the Ann Gold in your husband's FT is the same as mine! She is my great grandmother on my mother's side. Of course, I am now curious who your husband is? I have the certificate of Ann's marriage to Henry Rathbone on 25th December 1878 at St Philips Church, the ceremony being conducted by an 'Ernest Skrimshire, Lecturer'. Ann's age is given as 20 and Henry's as 21. Henry is described as a Brass Founder from Digbeth, his father being a Henry Rathbone as well, a Tube Drawer. Ann's address is given simply as Birchall Street, and her father is Henry Gold, Fire Iron Maker. Both Ann and Henry signed with their mark. Their witnesses were a couple called William Jones (who signed with his mark) and Hannah Jones, who signed in good handwriting.

Ann and Henry gave birth to Arthur, my grandfather, on the 2nd July 1885 when they were living at 38 Watery Lane, Aston. This is the Arthur who played for the Smallheath Football team I referred to in my intro message. He died at Birmingham General Hospital, aged 64, on the 27th December 1949 as a result of head and abdominal injuries sustained when he was run into by a motorcyclist, the night before. The story is that Arthur was a regular at the Prince of Wales pub, Shirley. He was there on the evening of Boxing day 1949 and on leaving, was standing outside in the dark, just off the pavement, talking to a friend. A young man was driving a motorbike (with his girlfriend on the back) without lights, and he ran straight into him. I don't know what happened to the young man and girl but Arthur ended up being left for too long unattended in a bed behind a screen in hospital casualty. He bled to death before anyone dealt with him.

Although I was only 1 yr 10 months old when this happened I do have one live memory of Arthur. He was a postman and I remember hiding behind a settee in the house one afternoon when I heard him coming down the entry. As he walked in I jumped out to shout "Boo, nandad!" Odd that this has stayed in my mind. The house I am referring to here is 84 Arlington Road, Warstock, where I was in fact born, on the 18th February 1947.

Arthur is of fascination to me because I was always told by my mom that I looked like him (and I have a picture that proves this is true), and had a "streak" of him in my character. He married Nellie Brown on 12th July 1908 at St Saviours Church, when they were both living at 14 Garrison Street. At the time, Arthur is described as a Tin Founder. Nellie, the only grandparent I got to know well, died (at Arlington Road) in 1963. She and Arthur left 4 daughters: Ivy, the eldest, then Ann, my mother, and May and Gwen. sadly, they are all dead now.

The new information you have given me is that Ann Gold's mother was a Jane from King's Heath, which I didn't know, and that her father Henry was born 1824, which I also didn't know. Do you have further information to share? Also, does your husband by any chance use Genes Reunited? I do and have my family tree on there, which I could share with him.

I'm not sure where I found this but I have information in my files suggesting Ann Gold had a sister called Jane Clinton, who had a son called Harry Gold. This doesn't quite make sense as it stands, but probably could be explained if more facts came to light. What I also have is a note that Jane had a fiancée who went to the USA but was never heard of again, possibly due to some tragedy?

I'm sure you'll be coming back to me with more info yourself Ann, but before I go let me say that I like the quote you use at the end of your message box - it's very lovely.

John
:smile2:
 
beamish said:
Hello John,

Birmingham City were originally known as Small Heath Alliance, then Small Heath, then in 1905 They became Birmingham and in 1943 Birmingham City. In 1906 They moved to their present home St Andrews.

I'm not sure if the following may be connected to your family. It mentions a Arthur Rathbone, and another of the names you listed, Brown. Also the date below, 1908 is reasonably near the date you mentioned:

Nellie AMOS, b. 1886? (sometimes known as Nellie Brown) who married Arthur Rathbone 12/7/1908 at St Saviours Church, Saltley Parish, Birmingham. Nellie was daughter of Solomon AMOS and Leah (ne Brown), and she had brothers Joseph, Solomon, Samuel, Harry, and sisters Elsie, Florrie, Leah and Elise. Nellie was brought up by her grandmother 'Granny Brown', wife of Harry Brown, a butcher who was deceased by 1908.
Click to expand...

Hello Beamish,

Many thanks for your welcome and this intriguing reply.

I need to rummage through my family albums to find where I have stored the football photo I mentioned in my intro message, then I can check what description it actually uses for the Smallheath team my grandfather Arthur played for. You appear very well informed of the origins of Birmingham City FC so I'm really pleased you have made contact. All of my family were solid Blues supporters so of course my dad got me into football boots and Blues kit from about aged 3! I disappointed him by growing up more a gymnast and all round athlete than a footballer, and I really blotted my copy book by passing the 11 plus and going to (Moseley) Grammar School, where of course we played Rugby! Nonetheless, I did go to St. Andrews from time to time with my dad, Harry Taylor, and, as he was the eldest of 11 siblings, several of his brothers. My last such memory is aged about 15, being a medium sized youth, and my uncle Fred picking me up on one arm just before going through the St Andrews' turnstile, showing a bit of money through the hatch with his free hand and quickly saying "One an arf for the baby 'ere mate". Great days.

I'd love to know where you got the family history information from that you link to me? My Arthur Rathbone did indeed marry Nellie Brown when and where you say, and Nellie had the brothers and sisters you list (except I have an Elisa rather than an Elise as one of her sisters - a very minor difference - and I understand some of the boys may have been half brothers, though I'm not certain). The intersting bit is that you know about Nellie being brought up by "Granny Brown". This is the story I used to hear from my mom and the elder of my aunts (all dead now, so I can't find out more from them), and I also heard a whisper (and it was whispered) that Nellie could have been born illegimate, which might well explain her needing to be brought up by her (or a) granny? The problem is, I have struggled to get definite records relating to Nellie.

I have Nellie's death certificate, and this says she was 77 when she died in 1963, which puts her birth year at or close to 1886, as you suggest, as does her age of 22 yrs shown on her marriage certificate in 1908. But i can't find a birth certificate in the records that I am certain is hers. I have found one for a Nellie Brown born 19th march 1886, but it gives the parents as Samuel Brown (not Harry), a Plane maker & Journeyman, and Sarah Brown, né Fisher, and their address is 40 Court 2, Irving Street. You have Nellie born of Solomon Amos and Leah (né Brown), and her parents in turn as 'granny Brown' and Harry Brown. I have some information relating to these names too, and though I can't recall where I first got on this trail, I think I do recall my mom and her sisters talking about an "aunt Leah" or a "great aunt leah".

I found a marriage certificate of 28th december 1891 at St Jude's Chruch, for Solomon Amos, aged 25, Brickmaker, and Leah Brown, aged 24, spinster, both living at the time at 4 Ct. 5 Ho. Hurst St. This would make Leah old enough to have had Nellie at aged 19, prior to being married, explaining the rumour of Nellie's illegitimacy. But on this marriage certificate, Leah's father is described as Samuel Brown, deceased - i.e. not a Harry Brown.

I also have a birth certificate, dated 2nd November 1866, for Solomon Amos, which gives his father as Joseph Amos, Brickmaker Journeyman, and his mother as Emma (né Hilton), both of Angelina Terrace, Aston.

Part of the blurring in all this is that, if I am correct, Leah's (Leah Amos, né Brown, who married Solomon) mother was also called Leah. I have this from Leah's birth certificate, dated 25th March 1866, which gives her father as Samuel Brown, Chandelier Burnisher, and her mother as Leah (né Barlow), and it says that both of these were living "at the back of 96 Popes (I think this is the name) St".

If you are still following the logic of all this (I'm struggling myself!), it suggests that Nellie could have been brought up by a Granny Brown, who was Leah Brown (né Barlow) mother of Leah Amos (né Brown), and it makes extra sense if this Leah Amos gave birth to Nellie 5 years before she married Solomon. One could see the older Leah (granny) bringing up Nellie while the younger Leah (the actual mother) went out to work and/or found a husband.

But this version doesn't square with your version, that the older Leah (as the granny Brown) was married to a Harry Brown, because I have her married to Samuel Brown. What's interesting is that Samuel is the given father for Nellie, if I have the correct birth certificate for her. Could this mean Nellie was actually daughter of Granny Leah Brown's husband Samuel Brown (not Solomon Amos), but by a first wife of his, the Sarah Brown (né Fisher) that is the mother on the birth certificate I have for Nellie?

This could make sense if Samuel and Sarah gave birth to Nellie, then Sarah dies and Samuel marries a second time to Leah Barlow, then Samuel dies and Leah marries a second time to Harry Brown. This way, I could see why it would be said that Nellie was brought up by granny Brown, as granny Brown would, by marrying Samuel, be taking over from Sarah to bring up Sarah's daughter Nellie; then when Samuel dies and granny Brown marries Harry Brown (second name a coincidence, or is Harry a brother of Samuel?), Harry becomes the adoptive father that Nellie refers to later on on her marriage certificate. This would also explain why Nellie wasn't brought up by Leah Amos (né Brown), because Leah, the daughter of Leah Brown (né Barlow) would actually be Nellie's half-sister not her mother. And this would fit with my mom and her sisters referreing to Leah as "Aunt" Leah.

PHEW!!

I'll understand if I've frightended you away Beamish, but at the very least I would appreciate you letting me know where you got your info and version from before you turn and run!

Cheers
John
:sweat:
 
Hi John T

Initially I simply typed Searching for Arthur Rathbone and the name Brown into Google and this came up on Curious Fox web page:.

Birmingham - Genealogy, Family History, Surnames and Local History.
Searching for more info on Samuel SCANDRETT, born somewhere in .... (sometimes known as Nellie Brown) who married Arthur Rathbone 12/7/1908 at St Saviours ...
www.curiousfox.com/history/warwickshire_9.html - 58k - Cached - Similar pages

Then I Scrolled down and noted the following:
Amos - Birmingham
Looking for information about my grandmother Nellie AMOS, b. 1886? (sometimes known as Nellie Brown) who married Arthur Rathbone 12/7/1908 at St Saviours Church, Saltley Parish, Birmingham. Nellie was daughter of Solomon AMOS and Leah (ne Brown), andshe had brothers Joseph, Solomon, Samuel, Harry, and sisters Elsie, Florrie, Leah and Elise. Nellie was brought up by her grandmother 'Granny Brown', wife of Harry Brown, a butcher who I know was deceased by 1908.

KEEP RIGHT ON!
 
John T,

This may be of further interest to you. I note with respect to Solomon Amos and Leah Brown that they lived in Hurst Street. Well the National Trust has preserved the type of property that they would probably lived in right there in Hurst Street – by the Hippodrome -
The National Trust has restored Birmingham's last back to back houses in a 19th century courtyard just by the Hippodrome in Hurst Street. Birmingham used to have thousands of houses in this style which were literally back to back with a courtyard. The houses were cheaper to build and keep warm.
The houses are themed along stories from real life and different time periods covering the years 1840 to 1977. Birmingham Back to Backs.

Look at the address John! 50-54 Inge Street /55-63 Hurst Street, Birmingham, West Midlands B5 4TE

Telephone: 0121 666 7671 (booking line)

Ps: If you ever decide to visit them, you could tie it up with the Blues playing the Villa next season in the Premiership and when we ‘ammer them, your joy would be overflowing.


The picture of St Judes is on this site. For more info simply type in St Judes.
 
John T. If it is the Pope Street you are referring to, there is a Pope Street about a mile away from Hurst Street. The photo attached is also on this site: Just type in Jewellry Quarter page 2.
 
hi john..this may be of interest to you...1933 slum clearences plan of pope street...

courtesy of carl chinns birm lives..

astoness
 
Beamish

I have to laugh :-)). It was me that posted that information on Curious Fox 5 years ago. I had completely forgotten! Thanks to you, I've now been able to go back to update the script and pay my subs. Although I've left the Amos link in, I must say I'm starting to wonder if this is a false name trail I have been following in my FH? Brown seems the safer one (except of course it is commoner name and so the harder to track).

The pictures you have sent and tip about Hurst St are brilliant. I live in Sheffield, but I do go down to Brum once in a blue moon (to visit my parents' grave in Yardley Wood cemetery), so the restored houses in Hurst St will definitely be included in my next visit as a refreshing additional purpose for the trip. :cool:

Astoness

Thanks a mill for sending the schema of one Pope Street's slum clearance plans. An excellent item to add to my FH file. As a matter of interest, where would you draw the boundary line around "Aston" as an area. Although I freely talk about Aston, Digbeth, Deritend, Coventry Road, Bordesley, Small Heath etc., I admit I often wonder if I'm confusing others and myself?! :confused2:
 
I'm a relatively new member too, but am also researching the Taylor family in Aston. Probably no connection as it's such a common name - in fact so common that my Great Gran (Rose Metcalf) appears to have married a second Taylor 'Alfred', after losing her first husband 'George' Taylor in 1910! My family were brass casters and polishers, and the ladies bedstead polishers. They lived in various places around Saltley - Devon Street, Vauxhall Road, Duddesdon Mill Road. I'd like to try and find out what happened to my Grandma's surviving sister (her other sister was drowned in the canal in 1916) and if she had children - Annie Taylor born 1897- have you come across her name? Good luck with your research.
 
Hi John,

Thank you for recommending the book by Eric Hopkins, I'll see if the library has a copy. I've read one on Birmingham's industrial past, but I can't remember the name of that book.
My husband isn't a blood relative of the Golds. It was the sister of his grandfather that married into the Gold family. She married Frank Thomas Gold (born 1877 Kings Heath), and Timothy Gold born 1850, brother of Ann, was his father. So Ann was Frank's aunt. And on the 1911 census, my husband's mother and grandparents were living with the Golds. My husband did stay in touch with this branch of the Golds, and we have visited them in Much Wenlock. But after his mother died, we lost touch.
I can give you the reference for the marriage of Ann Gold's parents. Henry Gold (born abt. 1824 Birmingham) married Jane Woodhall (born abt. 1824 Kings Norton) in Birmingham 1843 Jan to Mar Qtr. volume 16 page 267. And Jane Woodhall's parents were Timothy Woodhall, a white smith (again) born about 1791 Dudley Staffs. and Susannah, born about 1800 Lichfield Staffs.
The Jane Clinton you refer to was born about 1853 Birmingham. And on the 1891 census she is widowed and living in Barwell Street Deritend, not far from Henry Rathbone ( a brass dresser 33 of Barwell St.), and living with her is her son Henry Clinton aged 19 (could be the Harry you refer to). On an earlier census, Ann Gold has a sister Jane born 1853, so that ties in.
The fire iron makers from Deritend in my tree are also described as white smiths. I'm sure they must have all known each other!

Hope this helps

All the best Ann
 
Some excellent information Ann, thanks so much to you and your man,

I'll need time to distil it and graft it on to my Family Tree, but who knows, at some later date I might see if I can find the Golds myself in Much Wenlock!

Phew, hardly 48 hours on this Forum and I'm beginning to think I need another 24 hours in each day to absorb all the information, links, ideas and contacts available! My mind is buzzing and I haven't felt so 'Brummie' in a very long time.

If you have a problem getting Hopkins' book let me know. I can easily post it to you to read for a while and then return to me.

Take care, and let's stay in touch now and again

John
:wave:
 
John be careful. The forum is addictive, and then there aren't enough hours in the day! I'll leave you to absorb the extra information.

All the best Ann
 
For those of you who might have been interested in the item I included in my Intro message re my father and WW2, I have posted a request for help and a more detailed story about this in 'The Army' thread on this forum. I have titled it "Two Germans and Harry Taylor, my father".

John
 
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