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Midland Red Early Days

On the question as to how far south Midland Red ran. The 1925 route map shows a route from Monmouth south to a village called Trellach. I didn't know that they ran in this area. Otherwise the town which was the furtherest south on that map was Oxford.
 
Great Work!

Lloyd said:
... The photo is taken in Banbury Market Place, not Bicester! ...
Click to expand...

Wow! Excellent sleuthing, gentlemen! The internet is a wonderful tool in the right hands. :)

Now for the date! We've narrowed it down to 1938-1945: can we be more accurate? What is that COMS double-decker (AEC?): does it help?
 
I have just found out that ancestry have the 1939 Kellys, and that confirms that it was run by Mrs M.M.Needle in 1939 . The 1939 and 1944 phone books also give the same entry as in 1941 (I had hoped one might call it fish bar or restaurant instead of fish merchant)
 
The buses are in full blackout markings and have lamp masks fitted, but with unblanked windows - although in most buses interior lights were reduced to one or two blue bulbs during the war, and the fabric or mesh applied to some side windows was more to protect passengers from broken glass than reduce light (other than forward-facing windows, there was no requirement for buses [or any road vehicle] to have toughened or laminated safety glass fitted until well after the war).
I think the light masks show that it is before the first relaxation of Blackout regulations, in September 1944, and it must have been nearly impossible to see to drive a bus in the autumn evenings along those country lanes. (Although, I suppose, most evening services had been withdrawn for the duration).
The EWL registration series (on the COMS 'decker) was issued from April to November 1937, and sadly I don't have a detailed COMS fleet list to tell me any more about it.
How the photo came to be taken is a mystery - although it was from the negatives of enthusiast photographer RHG Simpson, who did do some wartime photography.
There are some of his photos around of COMS buses taken April 1945 which show buses with lamp masks removed, whilst others taken in June 1944 have them still on.
So I would say, June 1944 when RHGS was known to be in the Oxford area, photographing buses!
Ray Simpson is mentioned on this Flikr page, if you are interested. It appears he was born in Oxford, 4th quarter 1925.
 
DavidGrain said:
On the question as to how far south Midland Red ran. The 1925 route map shows a route from Monmouth south to a village called Trellach. I didn't know that they ran in this area. Otherwise the town which was the furtherest south on that map was Oxford.
Click to expand...

Thanks, David! If Trellach = Trellech (also known as Trelech, Treleck or Trelleck: perhaps we should use the Welsh spelliing "Tryleg"!), then its latitude is 51.74506 ° N, as compared with Oxford at 51.75194 ° N. So Tryleg it is (unless someone can better it).

While we're establishing Midland Red records, what about the other cardinal directions: east, north and west?

And a related but different question: what is the furthest distance (by road) from Birmingham reached by a Midland Red stage carriage service? (Birmingham-Tryleg = 79.3 miles).
 
Well, not what you were thinking of, but how about Birmingham - Llandudno? Early long distance services (from 1921) were just long bus routes, get on and pay the conductor sort of thing.
Ther longest bus routes were Shrewsbury - Birmingham - Northampton, X96; and Hereford - Evesham - Stratford - Leicester, X91; both were 'all stops' bus services, and for a while in the mid 1980s there was a Birmingham - Aberystwyth 'limited stop' X91 service, which enjoyed only a limited sucess.
Here is a picture of an experimental 'S21A' type bus (of which three were built experimentally as modifications to S 17 type buses to test out seating and trim designs for future "dual purpose" semi-coach vehicles - its black roof can just be discerned) operating a westerly direction X91 Hereford journey.
 
OK Lloyd, we need to sort out the definition of "stage carriage service" here! Did the 1920s Birmingham - Llandudno service [120 to 140 miles depending on exact route, which was ...?] stop on request to pick up and set down passengers?

I grant you that the Midland Red X91 Hereford - Leicester service was the longest true stage carriage service [circa 112 miles]: in the country, not just for Midland Red. And by a strange coincidence the 1980s Midland Red West X91 Birmingham - Aberystwyth service was about the same length! The X96 Shrewsbury - Northampton service must have been a close second [about 106 miles].

But the question I asked (or meant to ask!) was: what was the most distant (from Birmingham by road) Midland Red terminus? It might sound like a silly question, but I would just like to get an idea of how far the Midland Red "stage carriage" tentacles extended.

Coach services are a whole different story of course.

[Nice picture of the S21A there, Lloyd! Do you happen to have (or know of) a colour picture of that type? (I don't ask for much, do I? ;))]
 
Thylacine said:
OK Lloyd, we need to sort out the definition of "stage carriage service" here! Did the 1920s Birmingham - Llandudno service [120 to 140 miles depending on exact route, which was ...?] stop on request to pick up and set down passengers?

I grant you that the Midland Red X91 Hereford - Leicester service was the longest true stage carriage service in the country, not just for Midland Red. The X96 Shrewsbury - Northampton service must have been a close second.

But the question I meant to ask was: what was the most distant (from Birmingham by road) Midland Red terminus? It might sound like a silly question, but I would just like to get an idea of how far the Midland Red "stage carriage" tentacles extended.
Click to expand...

OK, so you could get on a bus in Birmingham and travel without changing to:
Gloucester (X72[?])
Oxford (X50)
Shrewsbury (X96)
Northampton (also X96)
Leicester (X68)
Nottingham (X99[?])
amongst others, but with changing en-route you could venture further afield to - well, see for yourself!
 
Thylacine said:
OK Lloyd, we need to sort out the definition of "stage carriage service" here!
Click to expand...


For the legal definition of a Stage Carriage Service see

https://www.dvlni.gov.uk/commercial/pso/appendixb.htm

Coach services come under the definition of Express Service. Previously an Express service had to have a minimum fare of one shilling (£0.05) but the modern definition is that there has to be a closed door sector of a minimum of 30 miles
 
Thanks, Lloyd, for that excellent Midland Red route map! Do you know the date? I notice that many of the red lines run off the edges of the map, but at least some of them (e g to Bristol) must be "express services".

Thanks, David, for the link to the (modern) definition of "stage carriage" and "express" services. The 1920s Brum - Llandudno service almost qualifies as "stage carriage", but the definition was probably different in those pre "traffic commission" days.

Unless others are tired of it :sleepy:, I would like to continue the discussion. It would be good to identify the most far-flung (from Brum) little villages where the "Red" buses were seen (with some regularity) over the years (in all directions). Tryleg in Monmouthshire is a great example at nearly 80 miles from Birmingham. The idea is to define the maximum extent of the Midland Red "stage carriage" area by identifying the places on the boundary. When we've assembled a comprehensive list of placenames, one of our Google Maps experts can locate them all on one map for us.
 
For the legal definition of a Stage Carriage Service see https://www.dvlni.gov.uk/commercial/pso/appendixb.htm
Click to expand...
Although that is the Northern Ireland Government's definition, the idea is basically the same here in England.

The original definition of "Stage Carriage" is of a vehicle travelling on a regularly operated and timetabled route, where passengers may board and/or alight at various STAGES of the journey, and pay for only the distance they have travelled. hence the American "Stagecoach", which in this contry was government-licenced more particularly to carry the Royal Mail and therefore called "Mail Coaches" or "Post Coaches". (They also had to conform to a fairly standard specification and livery [usually Red & Black] and could only be built by government-licenced manufacturers.
Thus long distance services as we know them today were also originally 'staged' journeys, sometimes with only one or only a few long 'stage' lengthts of route, but since joining the EEC and agreeing to abide by the rules they set internationally, in this instance where a route exceeds 50 Kilometers (31 miles) then different drivers' hours regulations apply, as does the need for recording driving time, distance and speed on a tachograph.
This makes operation of longer routes more expensive, so in the few cases where long journeys remain as bus services, there will usually be some point along the route where one portion of it ends, and a new one begins - usually with a new service number, and sometimes with a change af driver as well.
https://www.dvlni.gov.uk/commercial/pso/appendixb.htm
 
Harking back for a moment to earlier discussuions on pioneer bus liveries, I have found this delightful coloured postcard of Stephenson Place, New Street, with what appears to be one of either the first generation Milnes Damler or second generation Tilling TTA2 double deckers in a red with black upper deck (mosly covered by advertising panels) livery. The date therefore would be either c1907 or c1912, and I also post a winter 2007 view taken from virtually the same point.
Things to notice on the early view are: The spire of Christ Church, Victoria Square, showing just above the bus; the policeman on point duty at this busy(!) junction; the 'City Centre' style gas light, with lantern of curved clear and hemi-spherical white glass surmounted by a gold crown; and the dog sitting in the roadway looking intently at the mechanical workings under the omnibus.
 
Lovely picture (and modern view), Lloyd. I know we should be careful with artist's impressions of early buses, but perhaps someone with a knowledge of fashion history can distinguish between c1907 and c1912? If the bus is a Milnes-Daimler, it would be the first time we've seen one in red livery (previously seen in "chocolate", though). The postcard is even signed by the artist (Jilette?).
 
How far did the Midland Red go? OK I know this is not early days and I can't remember the year but it would have been during the Manchester Bus Wars. I saw a Midland Red North bus at the time they reintroduced the classic MIDLAND livery running services in Manchester.
 
That's OK, David, because Andrew Harvey-Adams was in Manchester with his camera to take this picture of Midland Red North 1698 (A898KAH) in classic Midland Red livery. The correct date isn't given [27 September 2009 must be the date the picture was uploaded to flickr], but following interesting history [courtesy of Bus Lists on the Web, Colin's Place "Shamrock and Rambler" and MidlandRed.net] allows us to estimate the date fairly closely (1993-1997).
A898KAH (Norwich registration): Leyland Tiger TRCTL11/3R chassis number 8300738 Plaxton Paramount 3200 C53F body number 8412LTPX514.

November 1983: new to Eastern Counties as fleet number LT898 in National Express livery.
To Ambassador Travel.
November 1985: to Shamrock and Rambler Coaches (Bournemouth) as fleet number 3098 (later 98).
Repainted to white, green and yellow livery.
Circa 1986: named "Capricorn".
To C-Line (Manchester) fleet number ETL898.
1 March 1993: to Midland Red North fleet number 1698 (MRN took over C-Line operations from Congleton and Macclesfield garages).​
Ian's Bus Stop ["London Country TP TPL" page] gives a somewhat different and conflicting history:
Leased by Shamrock and Rambler.
April 1989: lease taken over by London and Country (Dorking); Shamrock and Rambler livery.
August 1989: repainted in old Green Line livery.
Renumbered TP98.
February 1995: repainted in new Green Line livery.
To Midland Red North.
April 1997: to Stevenson (Uttoxeter) fleet number 1698 (Arriva Midlands North?).
February 2000: to Dunn Line (Nottingham).
May 2003: still with Dunn Line.​
[Additions, corrections, comments and pictures welcome! ;)]
 
Thanks for that Flickr info. As my interests are buses and trains I shall spend some time looking through this. Vehicle I saw was a double decker and I thought that it was in the 1980s but I am not sure when Midland Red North started using the classic MidRed livery. I know they were using it in the 1990s and I was in Manchester c1993
 
The Shamrock and Rambler enthusiast site yielded this picture of ex Midland Red Omnibus Company fleet number 482 (reg JOX482P) Leyland National. S & R bought nine Leyland Nationals from Midland Red North in 1988.
 
DavidGrain said:
... Vehicle I saw was a double decker and I thought that it was in the 1980s but I am not sure when Midland Red North started using the classic MidRed livery ...
Click to expand...

David, I can't find any record of MR double-deckers in Manchester in the 1980s. That doesn't mean much, though, as Midland Red often lent or borrowed (or hired out or in) buses depending on service requirements, and this activity is not well documented. Midland Red Volume 2 (by Gray, Keeley and Seale) devotes only page 206 to the practice (with four pictures), discussing "hiring in" in the 1950s and 1960s.

Can anyone tell us when (and for how long) MRN reverted to "classic" MR livery?
 
Lloyd said:
... Actually a new company was formed for the purposes of the takeover, Midland Red Metropolitan Ltd, which held the assets of the depots, vehicles, routes and staff transferring to the WMPTA's operating arm, the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive (WMPTE). The former tram and bus depot in Moseley Road was reopened to partially house the erstwhile operations of Bearwood and Digbeth (that percentage of DH's routes totally within the PTA's area of operation, the West Midlands county), the remainder being passed to former BMMO garages taken over at the same time in Sutton Coldfield, Oldbury and Dudley. There was a major rescheduling within both companies to accomplish this, which would be a study in its own right. ...
Click to expand...

Lloyd, I meant to comment on this earlier, but I forgot. The 1973 sale of the West Midlands operations of Midland Red to WMPTA-WMPTE was agreed on 27 June and took effect on 3 December. 170 services, 413 buses, 1,396 staff and six garages passed from Midland Red to WMPTE for £3,600,000. MidlandRed.net has three interesting pages on this momentous transaction: here, here and here. (Though the vehicle statistics given add up to only 412). I've never heard mention of Midland Red Metropolitan Ltd before, Lloyd. Very interesting. As you say, the rescheduling must have been a major management exercise. Further information is very welcome. :cool:
 
Thanks, David. There can't have been many Midland Red buses that became TV stars!

Midland Red Omnibus Co Ltd (MRO) fleet number 216 (registered JHA216L) is pictured below (by courtesy of Martin Addison / 2E0MCA). It is seen in September 1980 at Rugby on service 584 to Coventry via Ryton.

Anorakian details (from MidlandRed.net and Classic Irish Buses):
Leyland Leopard PSU3B/2R (or /4R) chassis number 7300162 with Marshall DP49F body number 35032.

March 1973: new as MRO type S27 allocated to Rugby garage.
1980: reclassified as type SDP27.
6 September 1981: to Midland Red South (MRS) on division of MRO.
August 1982: reseated to B49F.
May 1983: allocated to Nuneaton garage.
March 1984: repainted to overall red MRS bus livery.
September 1987: allocated to Banbury garage (and later Rugby again).
March 1988: withdrawn by MRS.
May 1988: to Ulsterbus (Belfast) as fleet number 1895.
September 1988: to Ulsterbus contract fleet (non-PSV).
1990: withdrawn by Ulsterbus.
September 1990: to Barton's Transport (Maynooth, Co Kildare) registered 73KE18.
By January 1999: to Ballykissangel Productions (Dublin).
By December 2000: to Elliott (Charlton Mackrell, Somerset) for preservation.
To Taylor (Tintinhull, Somerset) presumably for further preservation.​
Does anyone know of its later history and current status?

The TV show "Ballykissangel" (official website) aired in the UK (and Australia!) in 1996-2001. Such was the fame of the bus that it was reproduced as a model!
 
A DVLA search gives JHA 216L as:
Date of first registration: 19/03/1973
Date of Liability: 01/03/1988 (so last Mainland tax expired at end of Feb 1988)
So if it has come back to the land of its birth, it hasn't been registered under its original number. Personally, I'm not aware of its existance.
 
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