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Midland Red Early Days

The MRED thread has become infamous: BHF off-topic police patrol the neighbourhood in fully-armed teams! Here's a couple of vaguely relevant "red" pictures showing where this once noble thread has gone. ;)
 
Yes, best gloss over what happened on the last page and get back to work on MRED topics - or it will end up like BSB (I've never seen such a bunch of unruly posters). Query - why show Rupert on one of his early jaunts?
 
In an attempt to steer the thread back to things Midland Red I resort to another image of Midland Red inspired artwork. This time a C1 fronted coach appearing in a little story book produced c.1950's by Birn Brothers of London. Operated by 'Scarlet Coaches', this obviously rebodied, Halifax registered, coach is operating an express service to Sunnyton-on-Sea from an unknown starting point. More illustrations to follow.
 
Thylacine said:
The Past is a Different Country.

The 1908 volume of Tramway and Railway World is proving to be an interesting read (although so far I have found nothing on Midland Red). Here's a snippet from 6 Feb 1908 that's of interest to us:

"Mr W Steadman, late traffic manager of the Kidderminster & Stourport Electric Tramway, who has been appointed traffic superintendent at Warwick, was entertained at a smoking concert at Stourport on 30 Dec 1907 by the employees of the tramway company, and also by other residents, and was presented with a purse of gold and a painted photograph of his family."

Can anyone explain to me what a "smoking concert" might be?
Click to expand...
A "smoking concert" was a casual dressed audience concert very often held in a pub, at upper class concerts the Ladies & Gentlemen wore formal clothes such as Evening Dress for the Men and the Ladies always wore a Hat and Evening Gown, very posh!!. Len.
 
Welcome to the thread, Len, and thanks for that explanation: much appreciated! It's good to see someone trawling through the "back numbers" of the Midland Red Early Days thread! :thumbsup:
 
In the 1911 census, William Steadman, age 42, a "Traffic Manager, Tramways", is at 40 Greatheed Road, Warwick, with wife Clara Alice Steadman nee Guest (48), daughters Gladys (17) and Lily (15) and sister Emma Welch (52). (Helen E Steadman married Henry Welch 2nd quarter 1866 in Alverstoke, Hampshire).
In the 1901 census William, Clara, Gladys and Lily are at an unnumbered property in Foster Street, Kinver (Clara, Gladys and Lily were born in Kinver). William is shown as 'Living on own means'. William's place of birth is given as Walsall, Staffordshire in both documents.
 
Off on our Scarlett Coaches C1 and at the coach station there is an air of London's Victoria Coach Station about it. Note the driver in typical Midland Red fashion, wearing a white cowgown and white topped cap.
 
Thanks, Mike. I could do with a trip to Sunnyston-on-Sea round about now. It's been raining (and snowing in the higlands!) in Tasmania for the last few days. "Last fling" of winter! :rolleyes:
 
Gentlemen whilst this is an excellent thread it also goes off topic on occasions and as space is at a premium on the forum,off topic posts will be moderated in future.Alberta
 
As Alberta followed my posting with a wake up call to us, I think maybe Scarlett Coaches is best left driving in to the Sunnyton-on-Sea sunset and ficticious Midland Red vehicles left between the pages of the books they feature in.
 
So sad, the closing of a chapter....

I feel I am missing a definition of what constitutes on and off (some may say I have always been lacking several pieces of the jigsaw...:tongue2:)
 
Oh I do hope not - the fact that recognisable Midland Red vehicles made their way into popular and childrens literature is of great historic interest, and I doubt is as fully recorded elsewhere as here by your good self.
Yes we have strayed well off topic on a number of occasions, and several posts can be precis-ed down or removed, and we must stay 'on route' in future (the "checkers" [inspectors] are watching us!) but I do still hope to see fascinating reminders of the importance of this once well-loved company getting an airing.
 
Not even sure if I'm allowed to say this.

Well, I've read the BHF Rules and I haven't found there a definition of "offtopicity" (or even a reference to it). I'm not one to argue with the referee, but it would be nice to know exactly what led to the warning after several months of similar activity. I fear that the feeling of having someone "looking over my shoulder" is going to dry up my creative juices. :(
 
Gentlemen, please keep to the topic you started with, i.e. Midland Red. The whole of the site is moderated, you haven't been selcted for any special treatment.
Could I respectfully bring your attention to Rule No 5
5. Members must NOT argue or enter into heated exchanges with moderators or any another member on the open forum. Address all grievances to the site owner at gymbo@btopenworld.com, whose decision is final.

Lets not spoil what is a great topic.
Thank you.
Jim:handshake:
 
Red?

September 1966 is "early days" to many of our readers, if not early enough for some of us. New to Midland "Red" in that month was Daimler Fleetline (type DD12) fleet number 5999 (registered GHA399D). In the picture below the quotation marks around "Red" are quite appropriate!

Open for discussion: when? where? why? how? ... and for how long? ;)
 
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Can't say exactly when, not the sort of data I recorded, but c 1973 'cos I drove it!
At about this time bus companies found that the earning potential for "allover advertising" liveries was quite valuable, at it would pay c£5000 per year, and the contract usually specified the cost of the special livery painting and the repaint to standard colours after the advertising period was over be paid as well.
One of the first in the area was a West Midands Daimler Fleetline advertising Barclaycard (which led to passengers thinking thay could pay their fares with a card on the bus!), and Midland Red D9 5413 in green and white livery for the Hall Green Greyhound Racing Stadium. There is a model version of that available, but the green is too dark, I think the photo they used for colour matching was underexposed!
I was somewhat guilty of liking these odd liveries, as intending passengers didn't realise that the weird coloured thing approaching was the bus they wanted, so no hand out = no bus stopping! (To quote Flanders and Swann, "I stops when I'm requested, although it spoils the ride...")
There was also a Fleetline (6009) painted to imitate 'Sunbrite' smokeless fuel, which led to a few phone calls to the fire brigade from members of the public who saw "A bus on fire" when it was parked at a terminus!
 
Re: Red?

Thylacine said:
September 1966 is "early days" to many of our readers, if not early enough for some of us. New to Midland "Red" in that month was Daimler Fleetline (type DD12) fleet number 5999 (registered GHA399D). In the picture below the quotation marks around "Red" are quite appropriate!

Open for discussion: when? where? why? how? ... and for how long? ;)
Click to expand...

Where is Colmore Row Birmingham at the bus shelters by the cathedral opposite the Grand Hotel (which in my lifetime has been closed more years than it has been open). Odd that it has stopped to pickup as it is on an inbound journey just going down New Street and round to the bus station and would be charging a premium fare as it is inside the city boundary. Back in the early 1970s I plotted all the bus routes that went down New Street for a report campaigning for pedestrianisation and I gave up on the number of Midland Red routes which ran down New Street and turned right into Lower Temple Street.
 
Actually I quite like the D9 in Green and white allover advertising livery. That it can carry this I think is a credit to its design. Although at the time I didn't like the blue and cream WMPTE livery, I retrospect I think it looks good in photos
 
The indispensable MidlandRed.net website gives the history of 5413, 5999 and 6009:

D9 5413 (EHA413D): new January 1966 at Sutton Coldfield (SN) garage; all over "Hall Green Stadium" advertising and Digbeth (DH) July 1972; Bearwood (BD) October 1973; DH December 1973; store October 1976; withdrawn November 1976; to Sykes for scrap January 1977.

DD12 5999 (GHA399D): new September 1966 at Leamington (LN); driver only operation August 1969; DH October 1969; BD July 1971; DH January 1972; all over "Patrick Motors Group" advertising and SN December 1972; DH February 1973; Redditch (RH) March 1973; BD May 1973; SN June 1973; DH October 1973; unallocated March 1977; withdrawn April 1978.

DD12 6009 (GHA409D): new October 1966 at LN; DH October 1969; all over "Sunbrite Solid Fuels" advertising circa 1972; Dudley (DY) October 1973; sold to WMPTE 3 December 1973; repainted in WMPTE livery 1974; Oldbury (OY); SN April 1974; Harts Hill (HL) October 1974; Moseley Road January 1975; withdrawn 1981.

So your date of circa 1973 for the picture of 5999 was a good estimate, Lloyd. If someone can say which garage operated service 118 we might be able to pin it down more closely. (That would be Digbeth, wouldn't it? I can't quite make out the garage code on the destination blind.)

What were the Daimler Fleetlines like to drive, Lloyd? And did you also drive the D9? (How did they compare?)
 
The 118 Birmingham - Walsall route was, in 1973 when I joined the company, operated mainly by Sheepcote Street garage, with some workings from Digbeth and Bearwood - which closed 3 Dec 1973, the same date as Sheepcote St and the route was transferred to the West Midlands Passenger Transport Authority (WMPTA).
Actually a new company was formed for the purposes of the takeover, Midland Red Metropolitan Ltd, which held the assets of the depots, vehicles, routes and staff transferring to the WMPTA's operating arm, the West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive (WMPTE). The former tram and bus depot in Moseley Road was reopened to partially house the erstwhile operations of Bearwood and Digbeth (that percentage of DH's routes totally within the PTA's area of operation, the West Midlands county), the remainder being passed to former BMMO garages taken over at the same time in Sutton Coldfield, Oldbury and Dudley. There was a major rescheduling within both companies to accomplish this, which would be a study in its own right.

To compare a Daimler Fleetline and a BMMO D9 would be like comparing a good traditional beer with a fine wine - both quite spirited (!) and enjoyable in their own way, but both developed in totally different ways towards the same end. The Fleetline was a heavyweight chassis, intended for intensive town service operation with whatever design of coachwork its operator preferred, whilst the D9 had to emcompass both town and interurban work, easily accessible for short-ride passengers yet comfortable enough for long distance travel. Midland Red had since the 1940s tried and tested integral construction, the bodywork not having a seperate chassis but a strong enough overall frame to support the vehicle and its mechanical components, and company-built single deckers from the 1954 S14 type all incorporated this construction. The next generation of double deckers, the D9, also followed this pattern and allowed a 72 seater to weigh less than 8 tons 4 cwt without resorting to 'lightweight' body designs like the D7. Weight saving = fuel saving, of course.
Not quite like carthorses and racehorses to drive, but you get the idea. Fleetlines had a 'lumbering' feel and D9s were more sprightly and slightly faster. One initial problem with the Fleetline was that the driver sat closer to the offside of the bus than in other designs, with the result that as drivers followed the track of the road they were used to, mirrors of parked cars tended to suffer in consequence.
The D9 had its problems and quirks, for example braking was powered by a transmission-driven pump which pressurised the system and held a small reserve of that pressure for a while, but repeated brake applications whilst in slow moving traffic needed to be with a heavier foot or you would 'run out of stop', as a few drivers found to their cost.
The CM6 coaches and a few experimental D9s had pressure storage accumulators built into the hydraulic system (as did the London AEC Routemaster), which holds enough power in reserve for many, many (over 70!) brake applications after the pump has stopped producing useful pressure.
A similar problem applied to the power steering of the D9, which like the brakes was assisted by a transmission driven pump leading to a feeling, if cornering whilst slowing down (e.g. when going round a traffic island) that you could steer OR brake, but not both at the same time. It wasn't true of course, but just the perception given as the assistance given to both steering and braking reduced with speed that either (or both) weren't going to last during the manouevre!
The D9 was overall the nicer vehicle to drive, and not just because one sat away from the plebiscite behind!
 
Fascinating, Lloyd! Thanks for that experienced driver's perspective. I love the "traditional beer" vs "fine wine" analogy. I did travel on the D9, which I remember thinking was "the best thing since sliced bread" (if you'll excuse the Aussie vernacular). But we had already emigrated before the Fleetlines entered service.

Excuse my anorakian persistence (I feel like I'm pestering the staff at Sutton garage again! ;)), but have you driven the D10? I would love to read your reflections on that rare and marvellous creature.
 
The D10? Well yes, but not in service.
Both examples had been banished to the far north (Stafford) by the time I joined the company, but they could occasionally be seen passing my home of the time on Hagley Road on the rare occasions they could be trusted as far as Birmingham on the 196 service.
4943, the first of the pair of experimental underfloor engined double deckers entered preservation as soon as Midland Red finished with it, and after a period of private ownership it passed to the society which became the formators of Wythall museum, where I soon became intimately acquanted with its peculiarities.
Now one thing I will say about Midland Red built vehicles is that they all have the same "feel" on the road, from the earliest SOS petrols to the post-war favourites of S14, D7, CM6T etc, and the D10 is no different - it could easily be an S23 by the feel, or a D9 (other than the reduced noise as the engine is no longer 'at your ankles' and you can talk to passenger or conductor if you so wish). A great shame the company did not forsee the coming of one-man operation earlier, as the markll D9s if built as D10s would have helped the conversion (and wage-saving) at a time when costs were spiralling out of control.
4943 is at the moment roadworthy and occasionally takes to the road on Wythall open days, and is quickly filled (not to capacity in deferance to a weak rear suspension unit, due for changing soon) as soon as it appears.
Here it is under my pilotage last year, about to go on a short public demonstration ride journey to the Maypole and back (about 4 mile round trip).
 
I'll give you a ride when you come to visit! have you joined yet? There's a newsletter / magazine (in colour online) for members, with history and 'whats going on' articles of interest.
(Membership available to all, not just Tasmanian Tigers! - can't blame me for trying, can you?)
 
Yes Dek, post #47 gives some detail about these double deckers built (some on chassis reconstructed from WW1 army lorries) to Midland Red design and having a humped interdeck ceiling, higher over the gangway than the sides, with long back-to-back seating upstairs (called 'Knifeboard' style).
Greater detail can be found in the documents of patent No 196406 here.
For the less technically minded, this diagram shows the main points of the patented design.
 
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