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Memorial found in a skip
- Thread starter wam
- Start date
Re the exact nature of the group ; can we answer the question - why would this group comprise predominantly young men (18-20) with three men in their 30s ? Was it a typical model of a voluntary trained fighting group ? Viv
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What a brave young man - Beresford got an MC. I wondered what part our group of men played in his pre-war life ? Viv.
pjmburns
master brummie
Sorry - I was confused as I did not think we were considering St Agatha's. I wonder if either St Barnabas had a war memorial or the club
pjmburns
master brummie
I assumed they might be past members of a small club - not that they were necessarily current members
but st barnabas is worth looking into
So was the group a Territorial Force (hence the TF following RFA in post #216) - initially a voluntary service for non-overseas but later deployed overseas to augment regular soldiers ? Ie was the group a unit of the South Midland RFA (TF) ? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick ?
Oh and as an aside was Lt Bowater a relation of Mayor Bowater - he was knighted. And quite possibly the uncle mentioned in the article ? Viv.
Oh and as an aside was Lt Bowater a relation of Mayor Bowater - he was knighted. And quite possibly the uncle mentioned in the article ? Viv.
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oldMohawk
gone but not forgotten
Some speculation ... I just have the feeling that such a memorial would be placed in a church.
With reference to the St Barnabas Club (1915) mentioned in post#200 it was likely connected with the nearby St Barnabas church, and maybe the young men were connected with the club and after WW1 a memorial was placed in the church.
St Barnabas church was damaged in WW2 bombing and during repairs in those days they would take care that the memorial was looked after.
It could be that after 1945, the Mason family added their son's name to the bottom of the memorial and the memorial was put back in the church.
In 1970 a fire resulted in an extensive rebuild and the church became much smaller. It could be that during the rebuild the memorial was not taken care of and ended up somewhere else.
Since 1970 there could have been other modifications to the church.
With reference to the St Barnabas Club (1915) mentioned in post#200 it was likely connected with the nearby St Barnabas church, and maybe the young men were connected with the club and after WW1 a memorial was placed in the church.
St Barnabas church was damaged in WW2 bombing and during repairs in those days they would take care that the memorial was looked after.
It could be that after 1945, the Mason family added their son's name to the bottom of the memorial and the memorial was put back in the church.
In 1970 a fire resulted in an extensive rebuild and the church became much smaller. It could be that during the rebuild the memorial was not taken care of and ended up somewhere else.
Since 1970 there could have been other modifications to the church.
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
Yes he was the nephew of Sir William Bowater.
I think the Volunteers were set up in The mid 1800s in case the French decided to come over. It was quite a thing that a gentleman should have connections with the Volunteers. They liked to go about as Captain or Colonel, much to the annoyance of the ranks in the Regular Army. Some of course quite liked to play as soldiers.
In 1908 it became the Territorial Force. Maybe some military minded could put us right on this score. Although at the time Voluntary you would be added to the Regular Army at times of crisis?
Over in Brownhills the coal owner Harrison made it compulsory to join the TF for new mine workers, being a captain in the TF.
The S Mid RFA in 1914 had their annual Church Parade at St. Paul's Church, where 350 attended. The Drill Hall was now in the Stoney Lane Barracks. Probably the S Midland RFA would have had more than 31 casualties
I think the Volunteers were set up in The mid 1800s in case the French decided to come over. It was quite a thing that a gentleman should have connections with the Volunteers. They liked to go about as Captain or Colonel, much to the annoyance of the ranks in the Regular Army. Some of course quite liked to play as soldiers.
In 1908 it became the Territorial Force. Maybe some military minded could put us right on this score. Although at the time Voluntary you would be added to the Regular Army at times of crisis?
Over in Brownhills the coal owner Harrison made it compulsory to join the TF for new mine workers, being a captain in the TF.
The S Mid RFA in 1914 had their annual Church Parade at St. Paul's Church, where 350 attended. The Drill Hall was now in the Stoney Lane Barracks. Probably the S Midland RFA would have had more than 31 casualties
pjmburns
master brummie
I don't have a newspaper subscription but did find this dated 8 November 1926
. MEMORIAL. UNVEILED AT STONEY - LANE BARRACKS. Two memorial tablets in honour of the officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the 3rd South Midland Brigade of the B.F.A. who fell in the war, were unveiled at Stoney-lane Barracks,
It looks as if they only named men in the RFA
. MEMORIAL. UNVEILED AT STONEY - LANE BARRACKS. Two memorial tablets in honour of the officers, non-commissioned officers and men of the 3rd South Midland Brigade of the B.F.A. who fell in the war, were unveiled at Stoney-lane Barracks,
It looks as if they only named men in the RFA
Radiorails
master brummie
The Territorial Force became the Territorial Army in 1920.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/volunteers-territorials/
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/volunteers-territorials/
Maybe there is some help on this web site.
I am still doubtful about a church involvement. I did wonder if this Board was superfluous and was put aside hence the possible lack of importance. As only one added WW2 name is there and there seems to be a quite strong Territorial connection here, there is the possibility that a newer, larger board was made which incorporated those gallant people who lost their lives during WW2. The Terriers were very much in evidence during WW2.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/volunteers-territorials/
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/volunteers-territorials/
Maybe there is some help on this web site.
I am still doubtful about a church involvement. I did wonder if this Board was superfluous and was put aside hence the possible lack of importance. As only one added WW2 name is there and there seems to be a quite strong Territorial connection here, there is the possibility that a newer, larger board was made which incorporated those gallant people who lost their lives during WW2. The Terriers were very much in evidence during WW2.
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Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
Attachments
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
Attachments
Radiorails
master brummie
Given the severity of the fire I am surprised the Board survived, if it was there. That now begs the question regarding the board. Is there evidence of scorching, burn marks or even minor deposits of soot in crevices on the back of it? Anything that was in a structure involved in a serious fire, unless meticulously cleaned, would have some traces of the fires action on it.
Forensics ! I like it. Viv
This lists two co’s of the Warks Volunteers Regs based at Stoney Lane. Viv.
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Radiorails
master brummie
It is a popular hymn among many of the Free Churches but does appear in a good many hymnals including those of the RC and CofE so it not restricted to the United States but was written by Julia Howe during the American Civil War. She heard Union soldiers singing 'John Brown's Body' being sung and the words came to her later that evening. Apparently the hymn was sung at the funeral of Sir Winston Churchill. The modern version is "Let us live to make men free".
Pedrocut
Master Barmmie
According to Wikipedia...."The church (St Barnabas) was built between 1898 and 1904 to designs of the architect Thomas Proud, and was consecrated by Charles Gore, Bishop of Worcester on Saturday 10 June 1904.[2] It acquired its own parish in 1905 with land taken from St Paul's Church, Balsall Heath."
Have we discounted St Paul's? I had noticed that in 1970 it had been vandalised.
Have we discounted St Paul's? I had noticed that in 1970 it had been vandalised.
pjmburns
master brummie
See picture in #48 - this seems to show that the boards were very different and even if there was another board inside there were rather more names.
demo of st pauls church moseley road... in one of the shots you can clearly see something has been taken from the interior wall but does not look the correct shape and size to be our plaque only a guess though... i take it the war memorial mentioned was the one outside the church...bit of info to go with them reads
Description:Interior picture of St Paul's church during demolition in January 1980 It stood on the junction of Moseley Road and St Paul's Road. It was demolished due to rising overheads and dwindling congregation. The church moved down to Balsall Heath Church Centre on Edward Road. Some of the fixtures from the old church were saved including the war memorial, stained glass windows by Thomas Camm and Company and a wooden statue of Christ.
Description:Interior picture of St Paul's church during demolition in January 1980 It stood on the junction of Moseley Road and St Paul's Road. It was demolished due to rising overheads and dwindling congregation. The church moved down to Balsall Heath Church Centre on Edward Road. Some of the fixtures from the old church were saved including the war memorial, stained glass windows by Thomas Camm and Company and a wooden statue of Christ.
Attachments
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I do remember this church, not least for how attractive it was. I was quite shocked to pass one day and see they were demolishing it. I did wonder if this was the original home of the war memorial.
I happened to be in Nechells gasworks last week. They also have a couple of war memorials in the office of a similar design too. If I go there again ill photograph them.
Where this memorial has a laurel wreath (victory over death) the one in the gasworks had a feather. Its got me thinking.
I happened to be in Nechells gasworks last week. They also have a couple of war memorials in the office of a similar design too. If I go there again ill photograph them.
Where this memorial has a laurel wreath (victory over death) the one in the gasworks had a feather. Its got me thinking.
Wondering if the gasworks ‘feather’ is connected with the Staffs regiment (Prince of Wales feather in their emblem) ?
Yes ageee Morturn, the laurel in the Balsall Heath memorial could tell us something too. Viv.
Yes ageee Morturn, the laurel in the Balsall Heath memorial could tell us something too. Viv.
sospiri
GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN
From the two photographs of "our" memorial that I have seen so far, there doesn't appear for be any evidence of fire damage to either the casting itself or the varnished wooden board to which it is fastened. Of the two Stoney Lane boards, one was mounted outdoors (& presumably open to the weather) and the other contains 400+ names.
Still trying to get my head around why these men were grouped together on a memorial. I’m now wondering if the Military Service Acts and their effect on the reorganisation of the Territorial Force gives us any clues:
Military Service Acts of 1916. These permitted the amalgamation and disbandment of units and the transfer of territorials between them, introduced conscription, and required territorials either to accept the Imperial Service Obligation or leave the force and become liable for conscription.
The last recruits to voluntarily enlist in a specific unit of the Territorial Force before the choice was removed, and who had trained in that unit's third line alongside neighbours and colleagues, had been drafted to their front-line units by May 1916. In September 1916, the regiment-based system for training New Army units was centralised into the Training Reserve. Separately, the 194 territorial third-line units were amalgamated into 87 Reserve Battalions. They retained responsibility for supplying replacements to the first- and second-line units, but when unable to do so, replacements were sent from the Training Reserve. The system was organised by region, so even if a battalion did not receive replacements from its own regiment they were generally sourced from an appropriate locality, but it did not guarantee unit integrity.
Is this what happened to our group of men ? Soldiers may not have gone on be placed in their own regiment. At least 6 went into the Royals Warwickshire’s and another 6 went into the Royal Artillery. Some may have felt forced to leave (by deciding not to accept the Imperial Service Obligation) and become liable for conscription. This is an uncomfortable issue because pre-1916 it questions on what basis did the men join the voluntary corps; to do their bit on the home front, remain close to their family or for a whole number of reasons to protect them from conscription. (Sorry it’s a question that has to be asked). Viv.
Military Service Acts of 1916. These permitted the amalgamation and disbandment of units and the transfer of territorials between them, introduced conscription, and required territorials either to accept the Imperial Service Obligation or leave the force and become liable for conscription.
The last recruits to voluntarily enlist in a specific unit of the Territorial Force before the choice was removed, and who had trained in that unit's third line alongside neighbours and colleagues, had been drafted to their front-line units by May 1916. In September 1916, the regiment-based system for training New Army units was centralised into the Training Reserve. Separately, the 194 territorial third-line units were amalgamated into 87 Reserve Battalions. They retained responsibility for supplying replacements to the first- and second-line units, but when unable to do so, replacements were sent from the Training Reserve. The system was organised by region, so even if a battalion did not receive replacements from its own regiment they were generally sourced from an appropriate locality, but it did not guarantee unit integrity.
Is this what happened to our group of men ? Soldiers may not have gone on be placed in their own regiment. At least 6 went into the Royals Warwickshire’s and another 6 went into the Royal Artillery. Some may have felt forced to leave (by deciding not to accept the Imperial Service Obligation) and become liable for conscription. This is an uncomfortable issue because pre-1916 it questions on what basis did the men join the voluntary corps; to do their bit on the home front, remain close to their family or for a whole number of reasons to protect them from conscription. (Sorry it’s a question that has to be asked). Viv.