Curious as to who 'Lily' was (from navy record - must have been a tatoo). It wasn't his mum, she was Fanny. Was he married before Jane or was she an earlier sweetheart ?
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Marle Hall - 1921 Census
- Thread starter norge0209
- Start date
norge0209
proper brummie kid
There is one possible reason that I’ve come up with, but it is completely a theory, and I don’t have any proof. As I mentioned before, his mother Fanny Hurley (nee George) is in Birmingham in the 1921 Census with some of her children. The last child mentioned is Katie A Hurley (aka Kate Alice Hurley). She was born in Nov 1913. I thought my great great grandfather Herbert Hurley (husband of Fanny and father of Herbert Henry Hurley) had died in 1907. He was definitely deceased by the 1911 Census. Katie is listed as Fanny’s daughter in the 1921 Census, but Herbert Hurley couldn’t have been her father. In her marriage record to George Bastock, Kate’s father is listed as Herbert Henry Hurley, my grandfather’s name. (As far as I know, his father always went by Herbert Hurley, not Herbert Henry Hurley.) So I wondered if my great grandfather had a child before he married my great grandmother. Herbert Henry Hurley sent a letter home to his mother while in a German POW camp (after being captured at Jutland), and one of the people he mentions is Kate. (I have a copy of the letter, passed down through the family. I don’t know what happened to the original.) He never states his relationship to her, though. In the birth record I found, Kate’s mother’s surname is given as George, which would fit with Fanny George. (There’s also a Kate Alice George in the family, though, and I’ve wondered if there was any connection between the two Kate Alices.) One of my Sims cousins in England just said she found Kate’s birth certificate, which gives her father’s name as John Hurley. I haven’t seen the record, so I have no idea what to say about that. Now, Fanny could’ve had a child with someone after her husband died and given her the surname Hurley like the rest of her children. But then why name Herbert Henry Hurley as her father in her marriage record? That would imply she knew my great grandfather was not her brother. What made this even more confusing was the 1921 Census. When my cousin sent me the image for Fanny’s household, in Kate’s column, instead of saying “single,” it says “father dead,” as though someone really wanted to get that point across. Fanny was the one who filled out the census form for the household. Like I said, this is completely a theory, and there’s no one still alive who would know the real answer.
Also, I’ve just realized that Jane would’ve been one month pregnant with my grandfather Bernard James Hurley at the time they sailed from England to New York, USA. He was born 1 Mar 1923 in Lawrence, Essex, Massachusetts, USA. (Herbert and Jane’s other two children - Herbert Henry Hurley Jr and Lillian Ruth Joan Hurley - were also born in Lawrence, as was my father, James Bernard Hurley, and most of Herbert and Jane’s grandchildren.)
I tried to attach the photo of Fanny’s 1921 Census, but the file is too large.
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norge0209
proper brummie kid
I really don’t know, but I was told that’s what my great grandfather called my great grandmother. That could be false, though, because I’ve found no supporting evidence, and I don’t even know if he knew Jane when he was a POW. (Also, all of my Sims cousins in England who knew her knew her as Auntie Jennie/Jenny. Herbert and Jane returned for some visits to England.) Given my theory about Herbert Henry Hurley having a daughter in 1913, which I mentioned in reply to a different post in this thread, Lily could’ve been the mother of that daughter, for all I know.
pjmburns
master brummie
Kate's birth reg at GRO. This fits with dob on the 1939 reg of 24 Nov 1913
If it does have Father's name John Hurley this may be a made up name to "save face"
If it does have Father's name John Hurley this may be a made up name to "save face"
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quite poss jan..here is the 1901 cenus for herbert henry...his dad also herbert and george hurley farther of herbert senior
pretty sure the address is quay st worcs which still exists today
lyn
He was demobbed in July 1919 after being repatriated from Germany as POW in 1918. By this point he'd served 6 years in the Navy. But he served again on Victory I from 9 April 1921, I think, for 7 months. So that would explain why he didn't appear on the 1921 Census. Note. Victory 1 ship in WW1/1920s was a shore-based ship (barracks in Portsmouth). So he might appear on the Census return for the barracks. It was later renamed HMS Nelson.
Therefore, Herbert was back in the Navy the month after Jane became pregnant. If he served 7 months this time, he would have been home just around or just after the birth of baby Winifred.
I also note he was paid a war gratuity on leaving the Navy. Could this have helped to make the decision to move to the US ? He was registered as unemployed on leaving the Navy.
Re the convalescence - a bit of speculation; Jane would have been about 3 months pregnant at Marle Hall when the Census was taken (June 1921). The chances are she'd had Tubeculosis and was sent to Marle for recuperation.
Therefore, Herbert was back in the Navy the month after Jane became pregnant. If he served 7 months this time, he would have been home just around or just after the birth of baby Winifred.
I also note he was paid a war gratuity on leaving the Navy. Could this have helped to make the decision to move to the US ? He was registered as unemployed on leaving the Navy.
Re the convalescence - a bit of speculation; Jane would have been about 3 months pregnant at Marle Hall when the Census was taken (June 1921). The chances are she'd had Tubeculosis and was sent to Marle for recuperation.
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norge0209
proper brummie kid
Ahh! Thanks so much!!
norge0209
proper brummie kid
He served again in 1921? Ahh! How did I miss that on his service record?! It does say 9 Apr 1921, doesn’t it? At the bottom of the record, I believe it gives a date of 2.6.20? Is that correct? You know how in the 1881 Census, they enumerated people on vessels? Did they do that in 1921? He could’ve been at Portsmouth Royal Naval Barracks like when he was on Victory in 1913.
pjmburns
master brummie
I thought all serving military were on the censuses - certainly in 1911 I have a relative in the British army in India and he appears in the census with his regiment.
norge0209
proper brummie kid
Why wasn’t that done for Norah and Lottie? They were over the age of 15.
norge0209
proper brummie kid
It names her father as Herbert Henry Hurley on her marriage record but also says her father is deceased on that same record (in 1934). Would they have put that because he no longer lived in England? Or to just “save face” again?
pjmburns
master brummie
It says "single" by their names which is correct.
It was to determine who might need to be looked after if the remaining parent died. (Or both had died). 15 year oldswere considered old enough to cope.
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pjmburns
master brummie
No idea. There were often lies as it was so much harder to check. My own gran claimed to be 21 when she married. She had no contact with her Father (who was alive) or mother (no idea) and at 19 would have need their consent so she said she was 21.
Military are supposed to be on a separate section of the 1921 census but I can't find if Ancestry have it or not.