Kynoch's I M I 1950s Onwards

[Brassed Off]

I think that these tanks were installed after the War, probably in the late '50's or early 1960's. Working in Central Millwrights one of my jobs was to renew the rubber blades at the bottom of the wiper/scraper arms on the equipment in these tanks. On one occasion a river official was on a visit, on the opposite bank an employee of Ellisons?? was having a bonfire, to pass the time he decided to kick a large piece burning cardboard into the river. The "river man" raced round to the company on whose property the fire was on. The poor bloke that had kicked the rubbish into the river was last seen racing down the river to try and retrieve what he had kicked in!!

 

[GazSutton]

I will be seeing my Uncle Keith(Troman) who was Bobs son in the next week or so...and I was wondering how Albert Banner and Miriam are...

 

[GazSutton]

Gaz I will phone Miriam in the morning and I know she will be pleased that you remember Al. I will send you a private message shortly regarding Al. Pete helped when they moved last year and Al showed him some of the tools of his trade. Jean.

How are they?

 

[Pongo]

jog my memory was the central mill wrights opposite the canteen on the bond ,, cant remember now i worked 15 yrs at imi,and did a 5years apprentiship then eventully worked in the lf developement tool room

I worked with Joe Beresford in the Central Millwrights,
He was in the stores there, and told us many tales about his time at the Villa along with "Pongo" Waring.

Hello Brassed Off! My name is Dean Beresford, grandson of Joe. Would love to hear any stories that Joe shared. I was only 9 when he died and never got chance to hear him reminisce. I'm currently writing about Joe's life and career so any interesting anecdotes about his time at The Villa would be of great interest and hugely appreciated. Many thanks, Dean.

 

[Brassed Off]

Hello Dean,
I have just seen your piece about your granddad Joe.
One day the lads were discussing the dirty sometimes violent tackles that were being "dished out" at the time 1960's.
Joe listened to the chat and was asked what he thought, we all thought that when he played for the Villa things were much cleaner.
He rolled up his trouser leg and showed us his shin, it carried a great many scars from the tackles that he had to endure whilst playing, so much for the cleaner game in times past! Joe brought us a picture of himself in his Villa kit, showing his "shin pads" they comprised of a large amount of cotton wool on top of which were his shin pads. In his words "the buggers" still got through them!
One story that he told us was when had to share a room with Pongo.
Pongo went missing on a trip to Blackpool? he was found in one of the hotel bedrooms in a rather compromising "position" with one of the female hotel staff! The Villa Board found out about this and decided to take action after the game.
Pongo scored a hat trick in the game, the thoughts of the board were that if he (Pongo) could score a hat trick then perhaps he ought to supplied with a woman before every game. I do hope that will fill in small bit about Joe your granddad?

 

[Brassed Off]

Hello Brassed Off! My name is Dean Beresford, grandson of Joe. Would love to hear any stories that Joe shared. I was only 9 when he died and never got chance to hear him reminisce. I'm currently writing about Joe's life and career so any interesting anecdotes about his time at The Villa would be of great interest and hugely appreciated. Many thanks, Dean.

Hello Brassed Off! My name is Dean Beresford, grandson of Joe. Would love to hear any stories that Joe shared. I was only 9 when he died and never got chance to hear him reminisce. I'm currently writing about Joe's life and career so any interesting anecdotes about his time at The Villa would be of great interest and hugely appreciated. Many thanks, Dean.

With regards to the Bond Trades as they were known, yes they were situated opposite the Oscott Canteen. Next to "E" block of the Research were the plumbers, then Steam Water & Gas, Central Millwrights and the Lifting Tackle lads. Next up the Bond was the Carpenters shop, and at the far end was the garage where company vehicles were maintained, including the puncture repairs of the company bicycles of which there must have been dozens.

 

[Brassed Off]

Hello Brassed Off! My name is Dean Beresford, grandson of Joe. Would love to hear any stories that Joe shared. I was only 9 when he died and never got chance to hear him reminisce. I'm currently writing about Joe's life and career so any interesting anecdotes about his time at The Villa would be of great interest and hugely appreciated. Many thanks, Dean.

Hi Dean, Another thing I remember Joe Beresford said when he discussed his transfer to the Villa.
If you recall that after signing for them he asked "who have I signed for". When asked about this, and remember that in the 1960's trade union beliefs were a little more volatile than today, and we could not understand how such a thing had come to pass.
Joe said that "in those days you did as you were told, everyone did", he was right about this, and the older lads agreed that this was the norm, before the W.W II.

 

[Brassed Off]

Remember the sound of IMI ammunition testing when we lived in Kingstanding in the 1950s/60s. Viv.

Yes I lived at New Oscott and we could also hear the testing of the munitions.
When I worked in the Research, the rear windows looking out of "E" Block, looked out over the loading field that was situated in the middle of the factory. Occasionally we would see one of the testers come into an open space, load up a revolver and empty it into the ground.
The really noisy tests were in the concrete tunnel (above ground) that was situated at the back of Research "E" Block. I think that a Browning .500 machine gun was mounted onto a concrete block during the test? Even if you were expecting the thing to go off, when it did you still jumped.
Following the big explosion when 6 people were killed all of the windows in "E" Block overlooking the field were "sucked" out. We expected them to be blown in, but the blast we were told had "rolled" across the field and this resulted in the glass exiting the building rather that going in.
This was very lucky because the lab. operators worked at the benches behind these windows, the benches were covered in glass equipment. It would have been carnage for those in these particular rooms!

 

[Pedrocut]

What was the date of the explosion where 6 people were killed?

 

[ChrisM]

I believe 14th November 1973.

 

[Pedrocut]

I believe 14th November 1973.

Thanks, it doesn’t seem we have much information about this on the Forum. A relatively modern tragedy.

 

[Pedrocut]

At the inquest in May 1974 the Jury are gravely concerned. In this year the Health and Safety at Work Act was passed. This gave Unions the power to elect workplace Safety Representatives, and just maybe...

 

[Pedrocut]

Better picture of the damage in November 1973...

 

[Brassed Off]

The story that was told at Kynochs following this terrible accident was that a maintenance person was drilling a hole to mount a notice onto the loading chute that led down to the room below. As he neared the end of drilling the hot "pip" of metal from the rear of the hole that was being drilled fell into the hopper below. As soon as it was realized what had happened the man ran for a fire extinguisher that was mounted next to one of the doors. The resulting blast then "blew" the man out through the door and away from the danger area, I understand that his life was saved.

 

[Brassed Off]

Further to the above comments:- John Elstub the then MD of Kynochs appeared on the TV news to show how safe the powder should have been. He demonstrated with a container full of the powder and threw a lighted match onto it! The powder would only explode if it was in a confined space, the tube that went from the upper hopper to the lower area acted as the confined space. This was the story that we understood to be what happened.

 

[Pongo]

Hi Dean, Another thing I remember Joe Beresford said when he discussed his transfer to the Villa.
If you recall that after signing for them he asked "who have I signed for". When asked about this, and remember that in the 1960's trade union beliefs were a little more volatile than today, and we could not understand how such a thing had come to pass.
Joe said that "in those days you did as you were told, everyone did", he was right about this, and the older lads agreed that this was the norm, before the W.W II.

That's fantastic, thanks 'Brassed Off'! Great to discover new quotes from Joe that I've never heard before! Cheers, Dean.

 

[Pongo]

Hello Dean,
I have just seen your piece about your granddad Joe.
One day the lads were discussing the dirty sometimes violent tackles that were being "dished out" at the time 1960's.
Joe listened to the chat and was asked what he thought, we all thought that when he played for the Villa things were much cleaner.
He rolled up his trouser leg and showed us his shin, it carried a great many scars from the tackles that he had to endure whilst playing, so much for the cleaner game in times past! Joe brought us a picture of himself in his Villa kit, showing his "shin pads" they comprised of a large amount of cotton wool on top of which were his shin pads. In his words "the buggers" still got through them!
One story that he told us was when had to share a room with Pongo.
Pongo went missing on a trip to Blackpool? he was found in one of the hotel bedrooms in a rather compromising "position" with one of the female hotel staff! The Villa Board found out about this and decided to take action after the game.
Pongo scored a hat trick in the game, the thoughts of the board were that if he (Pongo) could score a hat trick then perhaps he ought to supplied with a woman before every game. I do hope that will fill in small bit about Joe your granddad?

Brilliant! Thank you so much for these stories, much appreciated. Dean.

 

[Pongo]

Hello Dean,
I have just seen your piece about your granddad Joe.
One day the lads were discussing the dirty sometimes violent tackles that were being "dished out" at the time 1960's.
Joe listened to the chat and was asked what he thought, we all thought that when he played for the Villa things were much cleaner.
He rolled up his trouser leg and showed us his shin, it carried a great many scars from the tackles that he had to endure whilst playing, so much for the cleaner game in times past! Joe brought us a picture of himself in his Villa kit, showing his "shin pads" they comprised of a large amount of cotton wool on top of which were his shin pads. In his words "the buggers" still got through them!
One story that he told us was when had to share a room with Pongo.
Pongo went missing on a trip to Blackpool? he was found in one of the hotel bedrooms in a rather compromising "position" with one of the female hotel staff! The Villa Board found out about this and decided to take action after the game.
Pongo scored a hat trick in the game, the thoughts of the board were that if he (Pongo) could score a hat trick then perhaps he ought to supplied with a woman before every game. I do hope that will fill in small bit about Joe your granddad?

Hi Brassed Off... my father (Doug Beresford) who also worked at IMI from the 1950s through to the mid-1990s, would love to know your name to see if he remembers you! Would you be able to tell me? Cheers, Dean.

 

[Brassed Off]

Hi Brassed Off... my father (Doug Beresford) who also worked at IMI from the 1950s through to the mid-1990s, would love to know your name to see if he remembers you! Would you be able to tell me? Cheers, Dean.

My Name is Alan Harper, I was in charge of the maintenance in the Research for a few years and then left IMI.

 

[m.whitbrook]

Re: Kynoch's or I.M.I(LIGHTENING FASTENERS)



Dates, please, MW? (So that we can put it into a historical context!)

Chris

date was 1960

 

[Out in the sticks Brummy]

The map confirms that there was in fact an extensive railway system on the Kynoch site at Witton. I did not recall a previous mention of this and people I have spoken to with experience of the site from the 1960s onwards do not remember it. There is no mention of the system in the two Company histories.

But a family member puts me right; some of his comments are conjectural:

​

Not a great deal has been published about the internal railway system at Kynoch and still less in a form that is accessible online; the January 2014 issue of Railway Bylines published by Irwell Press (P.78 "ICI Witton” by Paul Anderson) whilst sadly quite lightweight on detail, nevertheless gives some information. Certainly, when the photos it contains were taken there were at least four steam locomotives present and, given the numbering, maybe there had been at least two others.​

​

Notes online about the preserved one show it was loaned to the plant in 1914 and purchased five years later; it would have become taken over by ICI in 1927 of course, continued in operation until 1953 when it was declared redundant and donated to the British Transport Commission since when it has been preserved. See: https://www.ribblesteam.org.uk/exhibits/steam/40-lnwr-ramsbottom-1439-1865​

​

There are references in the article to the possible acquisition of replacement diesel shunters towards the end of the 1950s and other ICI owned systems seemed to have completed that process by 1960. Ownership would have changed again in 1962 and, not long afterwards, the steady rationalisation of the city’s freight services would have been underway, aided of course initially by a certain former ICI employee. Perhaps the better steam locos were concentrated elsewhere in the UK for a little while but most seem to have gone for scrap quite early.​

​

More photos of the site are on the Britain from the Air site of course. One is attached. Equally, the fact that sidings served the works and were then still much used can be detected in the slides taken by Harry Myers in 1961 and online here: https://www.staffshomeguard.co.uk/KOtherInformationKynochV2Eimages.htm (image 5) It would be reasonable to assume that these were connected to both the ICI internal railway and the main line network via Witton Goods Yard (I don’t think Perry Barr had any goods facilities).​

​

Another photo I have seen online shows a blue-liveried Class 47 diesel drawing a rake of empty fuel tank wagons out of the yard as late as 1972 and it’s perhaps the case that things lasted a little later still, railway-wise.​

​

The main line alongside was an early fixture as the Grand Junction opened in 1837; it seems that Perry Bar (sic) station opened with the line but Witton was opened quite a lot later: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/witton.htm The dates in that link show that (public) Goods facilities opened in the 1880s but perhaps the Kynoch works (and others nearby, e.g. Crawfords is mentioned here) had private siding connections earlier. The canals might also have played a part in moving materials inwards and out of the site. The GEC works next door also had rail connections and my brother and I saw those sidings in use in the mid 1960s with AC Electric locomotives in for attention well before such overhead wires reached the city.​

​

For the real anoraks, I noticed references to a book on the ICI-owned industrial locomotive fleet and perhaps that offers a little more detail if a copy can be tracked down via a library.​

Acknowledgements to JRCM, Britain from the Air and Ribble Steam Railway

 

[Out in the sticks Brummy]

Hi yes there was an extensive railway system My Dad Don Commander worked in the loco sheds and there was a loco there. I remember going down to an open day ??? and they dressed it as Thomas the tank engine and it was by the side of central office block this must have been in the 60's. I can remember the rail tracks by the rod mill as this is where I used to slide my Ford Escort. Also it was where Dad got his push bike stuck in the lines and came over the handle bars

 

[Out in the sticks Brummy]

Those we have known and loved? -6
Don C. Had been a POW of the Japanese during the war. He was captured in Singapore and held in Changi Barracks. He ended up working on the notorious railway.
When I was told to work with him , the foreman had me in his office, and said that if Don ever started to talk or sing in a foreign language, I was to excuse myself and let him know.
This occurred on one occasion, and after letting the foreman know, Don was given sick leave. It turned out that it was a Japanese marching song that the prisoners were made to sing when they were being marched to work on the railway!
He was a knowledgeable chap, who was very good on compressors, these being his speciality., as well as vehicle engines.
During my time with him, several months, he told me of the harsh treatment that the Japs had meted out to their prisoners.
Don was fortunate! in the fact that he wasn't very tall, and he was a mechanic by trade. In those days the average Japanese did not have a clue about about engines etc. so he was useful to them. Also being short he didn't physically look down at his captors, they hated tall prisoners who obviously towered over them, and they were given hell.
On one occasion when all the prisoners were on parade, the camp commander inspected his own men, and found one of their uniforms to be not correct. He proceeded to slap the man about the face, and then punch him. Losing complete control he ended up kicking the unfortunate guard onto the ground.
No one dared to show any emotion with regard to the incident, otherwise they would have had the same or worse.
Don said that they then realised just what sort of treatment they the prisoners could expect from their captors.
While on the railway, to help supplement their food rations they devised a way of fishing with explosives.
The prisoners would get into the river and form a line across it, someone upstream would throw the explosive/hand grenade into the water, this would kill some of fish that would then float down to the waiting men.
The Japs would take most of the catch for themselves leaving little for the prisoners.
A way round this was thought out, and several of the men hid a couple of bamboo sticks tied together with with some string for when the fish floated down to them they could spear some of them through, and then stuck the catch into the river bed. This kept them below the surface and could not be seen by the guards. Having marked the river banks previously, they could retrieve their share of the catch later in day.
Don hater all things Japanese and who could blame him after what he had gone through.
He wasn't too keen on the Aussies either! having surrendered Singapore to them, the Japanese air force decided to do a couple of victory rolls over the town.
According to Don some Aussies decided to shoot at them, this led to another bombardment from their already victorious enemy.
Another part of the surrender involved the captured troops being marched to Changi Barracks. On the way there, the "native troops" (non European) were herded off into fields and machine gunned by their captors.
These last couple of snippets were "kosher" according to Don, who tended not to embellish his wartime memories.

 

[Out in the sticks Brummy]

I have popped the photo on here as Don C is my Dad thank you for your memory of him

 

[Big Gee]

My mother's father, William Diaper of Bevington Road, Aston, was an engine-driver at Kynoch, for many years I believe. He'd have retired in the early 1950's. Unfortunately, I can't give any further information, as he never talked much about his job; or anything else, to be honest!

G

 

[ChrisM]

Welcome to the Forum, "Out in the sticks Brummy" and thanks for your contribution in memory of your father.

(I have looked at the cutting you posted in the hope of seeing my own father who I know used to attend most or all of those Kynoch Services events. But he was obviously out of camera-shot!)

Chris

 

[ChrisM]

I don't think any of us have ever thanked Brassed Off for his wonderful series of 2015 posts in this thread entitled "Those we have Known and Loved" describing earlier Kynoch characters. They are really worth scrolling back to and re-reading.

Chris

 

[mw0njm.]

Those we have known and Loved? -8
Joe C; Was a very slightly built chap, and because of this he had served in the light infantry during the War.
He was very keen on boxing, and given his build, I asked him one day how he was so keen on boxing.
It turned out that he had been an army champion in his day, later a photo was brought in showing Joe in a classic boxing pose, with a massive belt around his waist, what a surprise to us all.
One day I was reading a book during a lunch break, it was about the Allied offensive that dislodged the Japanese and started their retreat.
Joe enquired about the book having seen the title. "Does it mention that it rained a lot" he asked, "yes" was my reply, "have you read the book?" I asked.
"No I was there" he said. Joe then told me that the Allies decided to break with tradition and attack in the monsoon season.
The men were told that once they had the Japs on the run, they must not let them establish any sort of hold again.
"If you do then you will have to get them out of it" they were told.
They did as they were told and chased and harried the Japs, knowing a moments easing up would cost then dearly.

thank you for all the effort you have put into these posts

 

[Out in the sticks Brummy]

Welcome to the Forum, "Out in the sticks Brummy" and thanks for your contribution in memory of your father.

(I have looked at the cutting you posted in the hope of seeing my own father who I know used to attend most or all of those Kynoch Services events. But he was obviously out of camera-shot!)

Chris

Hi I think its a pensioner Christmas meal for Bond trades I have a few more photos of the lads from the garage and loco sheds I will see if I can find them. Dad was a character and was also know for rallying his tractor round the works when he went out on brake downs, getting the aforementioned tractor stuck in a slag heap

 

[Out in the sticks Brummy]

Those we have known and loved? -6
Don C. Had been a POW of the Japanese during the war. He was captured in Singapore and held in Changi Barracks. He ended up working on the notorious railway.
When I was told to work with him , the foreman had me in his office, and said that if Don ever started to talk or sing in a foreign language, I was to excuse myself and let him know.
This occurred on one occasion, and after letting the foreman know, Don was given sick leave. It turned out that it was a Japanese marching song that the prisoners were made to sing when they were being marched to work on the railway!
He was a knowledgeable chap, who was very good on compressors, these being his speciality., as well as vehicle engines.
During my time with him, several months, he told me of the harsh treatment that the Japs had meted out to their prisoners.
Don was fortunate! in the fact that he wasn't very tall, and he was a mechanic by trade. In those days the average Japanese did not have a clue about about engines etc. so he was useful to them. Also being short he didn't physically look down at his captors, they hated tall prisoners who obviously towered over them, and they were given hell.
On one occasion when all the prisoners were on parade, the camp commander inspected his own men, and found one of their uniforms to be not correct. He proceeded to slap the man about the face, and then punch him. Losing complete control he ended up kicking the unfortunate guard onto the ground.
No one dared to show any emotion with regard to the incident, otherwise they would have had the same or worse.
Don said that they then realised just what sort of treatment they the prisoners could expect from their captors.
While on the railway, to help supplement their food rations they devised a way of fishing with explosives.
The prisoners would get into the river and form a line across it, someone upstream would throw the explosive/hand grenade into the water, this would kill some of fish that would then float down to the waiting men.
The Japs would take most of the catch for themselves leaving little for the prisoners.
A way round this was thought out, and several of the men hid a couple of bamboo sticks tied together with with some string for when the fish floated down to them they could spear some of them through, and then stuck the catch into the river bed. This kept them below the surface and could not be seen by the guards. Having marked the river banks previously, they could retrieve their share of the catch later in day.
Don hater all things Japanese and who could blame him after what he had gone through.
He wasn't too keen on the Aussies either! having surrendered Singapore to them, the Japanese air force decided to do a couple of victory rolls over the town.
According to Don some Aussies decided to shoot at them, this led to another bombardment from their already victorious enemy.
Another part of the surrender involved the captured troops being marched to Changi Barracks. On the way there, the "native troops" (non European) were herded off into fields and machine gunned by their captors.
These last couple of snippets were "kosher" according to Don, who tended not to embellish his wartime memories.

Here as promised I think its Dad's retirement If any body could name the faces I would be very grateful