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George Kynoch (1834-1891)

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george donovan

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In these my reminiscence years I have undertaken the research project of GEORGE KYNOCH who once had a explosives factory here on the Essex marshes close to where I now live. His name has also been given to an elderly peoples homes complex named KYNOCH COURT. I am looking to glean any infomation on the man himself as well as the industry he began. Along with this, Mrs Mcnab a long standing employee deserves some research consideration. Can anyone help please Please contact me by E-Mail---geodonovan@hotmail.com--- subject title KYNOCH Many Thanks
 
Just put KYNOCH in the search at the top of the page and you will find what you need there.

There are various threads that mention some aspect of the firm.

Pom
 
George Kynoch in Essex

George....

Welcome to the forum.

The main published source of information on George Kynoch is the following book:
"Under Five Flags" published in 1962 by The Kynoch Press

It’s fairly rare but does crop up on eBay occasionally. And I assume it will be held in the Birmingham Reference library, if not elsewhere.

You may well know all about this already, and also be aware of the online potted history of Kynoch’s industrial activities, based in part on that book, which is mentioned in the most recent thread on this subject in this forum.


Chris
 
George Kynoch

Thanks for the responses---I have exhausted the obvious, Net etc--- I was looking perhaps for unbeknown knowledge, photographs, literature perhaps.For instance. He was on his own in South Africa when he died, Why?
 
"He was on his own in South Africa when he died, Why?"

Not wholly clear, but when his relationship with the Company came to a bitter end he was ailing. He was also being pursued for a considerable sum of money by the new Board. So he set off for South Africa, presumably in search of warmth for his health and perhaps also for some peace and quiet, away from his troubles and disappointment. It is of course possible that his marriage was not all that satisfactory either. (I once heard, many years ago, comment that he had always been “a bit of a lad” as far as the fairer sex was concerned - but that could have just been a scurrilous rumour). Nothing appears to be documented about his domestic situation and something like that probably would never be anyway. It might well be that he undertook the journey with every hope, on his part and that of his wife, that he would return home as and when his health recovered.

What does seem certain is that he went alone, having abandoned his Aston constituents, and never returned. He was dead within 14 months. I’m not sure if you have seen “Under Five Flags” but the comment there is that he died in self-imposed exile and comparative poverty in Johannesburg and that “he never achieved the long-promised reunion with his family, even to attend the marriage of his only child Gertrude”. It was a sad end to a remarkable man.

If there any other snippets of information about him at that time, they are as likely to appear in this forum as anywhere. Whether anything further is held in the Birmingham Reference Library, I'm unfortunately unsure.

Chris
 
This post in in the wrong section, and Rod will have to move it, but as I am unsure where it will be moved to, I will reply here.

According to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, George had separated from his wife Helen by the time he left for SA.

He spent a lot of time away from the company when he became MP for Aston and also, close to our hearts - well some of us - he became chairman of Aston Villa, which lead to his being asked to resign from the company.
 
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A little more information on George Kynoch’s trip to South Africa which you may possibly have already, George.

His obituary in "The Times" of March 2nd 1891 states that he left Birmingham for the Transvaal at the end of 1888. His constituents in Aston Manor who had elected him in 1886 were left without an M.P. and efforts by the local Conservative Association to persuade him to return and take up his duties were unsuccessful. It appears that in November 1888, however, and prior to his departure, George Kynoch had announced his retirement from politics "on account of ill-health" and it was stated that he would apply for the "Chiltern Hundreds", the formality by which M.P.s resigned their office. It appears that this procedure was never carried through and he remained M.P. for the constituency up to his death.

It was stated that he had business interests in the Transvaal, in particular in several gold mines. He set up as a General Merchant in Johannesburg. He was also said to have "enjoyed certain privileges from the Dutch Government with regard to the manufacture of gunpowder and ammunition. At the time of his death, however, those privileges had lapsed and Mr. Kynoch is said to have died in narrow circumstances". His death was due to cancer.

One must assume that his marriage had broken down by that stage. His widow, Helen, married William Thomas Lancaster of Brighton on 27th July 1895.

Chris
 
Kynoch

The book I have ' The Story of IMI' states in its early pages:
"In 1872, one of Kynochs original twelve girl employees, who had joined as a tewlve year old and was now twenty-two was given charge of the cap department. This woman, Mrs. Mcnab, was to become a ledgendary figure in the next seventy five years, temporarily relinquishing her duties only briefly when each of her children were born" ( She is said to have had fourteen in total)
I have tracked this/these familes through the census's from 1851 to 1901---and it all makes sense---except in the case of the 1871. THERE IS NO TRACE OF THE FAMILES RECORDED IN THIS EITHER AS DOOLEY (Her maiden name) or McNAB, YET SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN TWENTY-ONE AND IN THE EMPLOYMENT AT KYNOCHS---so the book says. Can anyone offer an explanation for this !!!
 
Kynochs

Sorry---Fairly new to the site Can you explain PM ( Personal message) I assume and how do I do that
 
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Mrs Mcnab

"She is said to have had fourteen in total"

George......My source suggests seven sons and a daughter. But they may have been surviving children only.

The possible reasons for her absence in the 1871 will no doubt be suggested by someone more experienced in genealogical research than I. What's fairly certain, though, is that she was not away somewhere on a company Health & Safety course on that date!

PM: Click "Private Messages", then "Send new Message" on the LH list, insert addressee's User Name, insert title, draft your message, Preview to check, Send.

Chris
 
Kynochs

Mrs McNab---In the early pages of the book "Under Five Flags" it states that the said lady had seven sons and one daughter.
In a later edited version of the same book (1902) it states she had fourteen children in total.

The 1881 Census registers two--William aged 8 years and James aged 1 year
The 1891 shows William, James, Hugh aged 7, and Duncan aged 6
The 1901 shows James, Duncan, Helen aged 12. Mrs McNab being aged 51 years at this time.

Why the contradiction. Any explanation for all this !!!!!!
 
george donovan said:
In a later edited version of the same book (1902) it states she had fourteen children in total.
Click to expand...

Not at all clear about your comment, George, unless 1902 is a typo and should have been 1962. "Under Five Flags" was definitely a 1962 book and original, published as far as I am aware in one edition only. I'm also unaware of earlier histories but would be very interested to hear that they exist.

If indeed the comment about 14 children is in the 1962 book, could you tell me the page please? The reference to eight children comes from P.19 where it quotes an earlier statement: "She was never once away from work except on those occasions when it was necessary in order that her fine family of seven sons and one daughter might be ushered safely and satisfactorily into the world".

I'm sure that a genealogical expert on this forum will be able to offer ideas as to why children appear or don't appear in particular census returns. But I suppose one can guess about some possibilities particularly as Mrs. McNab must have had her hands very full doing a full time job of remarkable responsibilty - care by relatives and so on, perhaps.

Chris
 
The census returns are pretty normal for family life I guess. Between 1881 and 1891 Hugh and Duncan were born, and in 1901 William and possibly James are married, Helen appears and could have been visiting granny in 1891 and Hugh at 17 was almost certainly living with his employer. :)

There were of course deaths of children, there was a higher death rate than today.

Mrs M has called a halt at age 51 to her childbearing years.
:)

I just looked for Helen and Hugh - 1891 Hellen shown as Ellen staying at Finchley Road Handsworth age 2, visitor, born Birmingham, with family called Baker.

1901 Hugh is at Brompton Barracks in Kent, he is a Sapper, Royal Engineers and he was born - Witton Birmingham.

1901 WIlliam is married living Cheshire Road, Erdington, his mom would have been proud of him as he is manager at ammunition works, born Witton.
 
Kynochs

Hello Everyone---Thanks for all your responses. Sorry for the misunderstanding re. Mrs. McNab.
I have recently been sent a book via IMI "The World of Engineering---The Story of IMI 1862-2001" the foreword by the Chairman Gary Allen reading'---i felt that we needed not only an update but a comprehensive treatment, placing IMIs history---particually since 1962 when the present company was formed--in the context of economic circumstances"
This was my meaning in my previous submission when I said an updated version of Under Five Flags, and it is in this new book that the fourteen children are credited to Mrs. McNab---hence my query--'why the contradiction'

The further enlightenment through Di was certainly of interest. Im looking at the possibility of the 1871 Census absence being that they were in America, for in the 1881 it shows that Mrs McNabs two brothers aged 22 ( who could be twins) were born in New York! Incidently, Mrs. McNab comes about through curiosity rather than family interest on my part.

Interestingly however is that in the 1991 Census, Peter McNab (Mrs McNabs husband) is not at home with the family, and in the 1901--ten years later-- he's an Inmate in the District Union Workhouse, Elswick Northumberland. The plot thickens !!!!!!
Thanks everybody.
 
I’m surprised at the comment in the 2002 book. I wonder where the authors picked that up from. My impression was always that they had drawn very heavily on the 1962 book for the earlier history, although they may of course have gone back to original sources for some aspects of it. In the 1962 there are several comments about this lady’s life and service and just the single reference to the eight children which appears to come from a contemporary source, perhaps at the time of her retirement in 1902 after 40 years of service. (For the benefit of others reading this thread, she lived until 1947 and reached an age of 97, a remarkable achievement in view of the times and her occupation, as was her professional achievement in producing in her department up to 449 million percussion caps a year with an almost spotless safety record, in contrast with the regular carnage which surrounded her).

My own opinion is either that the mention of fourteen is an error or that the contemporary commentator felt it would be insensitive to mention the other six who did not survive. Fourteen confinements seem a huge number to fit into a busy working life; but then, I suppose, eight is not that much less.

Unless there is other evidence confirming it, one has to wonder whether the Peter McNab in straitened circumstances in Northumberland is someone totally unconnected.

You mention her brothers, George. You must have established her maiden name then. Which was?

It’s interesting to note that a son followed her into a similar line of business, one must assume into Kynoch’s. (I’ve just got in the back of my mind the mention of the same surname connected with Witton from the 1940s – possibly a false memory but I wonder if a bit of a dynasty had been established!)

Chris
 
Kynochs

A quick reply before I get engrossed in the day

Mrs. McNabs maiden name---DOOLEY In 1881 living with mother (widow) Husband and two children at 3, Witton Lane Handsworth
 
Kynochs

Where can I obtain pictures or other research material on HAMSTEAD HALL---once the residence of George Kynoch. It seems through the internet to now being a school. Is it still the same building or was it demolished to make way for the new school amongst other projects.
 
kynochs

In the 1901 census, Gertrude Kynoch , the daughter of George Kynoch, is living at 82, Long Street Aston as a 'Boarder', her married name being Smith. Her occupation is listed as a 'Circus Artist'. Can anyone expand on this or tell me in what direction I should go to learn more. Thanks
 
george donovan said:
In the 1901 census, Gertrude Kynoch , the daughter of George Kynoch, is living at 82, Long Street Aston as a 'Boarder', her married name being Smith. Her occupation is listed as a 'Circus Artist'.
Click to expand...

That sounds quite astonishing. I assume there is no doubt that this is the right Gertrude, namely the daughter of the marriage who married when George was in South Africa? And not a love child in the locality of whom there were rumoured to be one or two?

Chris
 
Kynoch

Hello Again; I didnt give that a thought for the evidence I have didnt warrant that consideration-----
Gertrude Helen Kynoch married William Charles Dudley Smith at W. Brom. Dec. Q 1889.

In 1891 shes listed as the wife of the above aged 27 in Hamstead Mill. Handsworth There are no children listed

And then as I quoted in 1901 aged 37. Although she appears to be on her own as a boarder.

I think this could be her husband---
1901--William C Smith-- Boarder--Employer-- B-Birmingham

From the romoured love child, were there any fingers pointed. George
 
Just going of thread a tad, I see you have William Dudly Smith listed at Hamstead Mill in 1891, could you possibly tell me his age, occupation and where born. A big thankyou x :)
 
Kynoch

Dudley Smith---

1891 Census---William Charles Dudley Smith--Head--24--Farmer--B--Handsworth.

1901 Census--William C Smith--Boarder--32--?Bru??worker?--Employer--B--Birmingham
RG 13/2816 f 100 p 37

Hope this helps George ;)
 
George...

The 1962 history stated of his sad end thousands of miles away: "Most poignant of all, he never achieved the long-promised reunion with his family, even to attend the marriage of his only child Gertrude". This is a little ambiguous but it tends to suggest that the wedding took place while he was still alive, namely in 1891 or before.

Also, why would Gertrude get married in West Bromwich? Assuming her home was still Hamstead Hall, wouldn't she have married in that locality?

And third, doesn't her apparent status - boarder, circus artist - seem very surprising considering the wealth of the family, at least in earlier times?

On the other hand it's surprising if there was another Gertrude Kynoch about, of roughly the same age and not far distant geographically.

On the question of love children, far be it from me to encourage rumours which damage the reputation of an undeniably great man. All I can say on this is that, first, it does seem to be an established fact, often gained from reading between the lines rather than from explicit comment, that George was, or had at one stage been, "a bit of a lad". And second, I remember listening to a conversation of some 50 years ago between two Witton blokes. They were chuckling over the fact that at one time, many years previously, there had been one or two ladies on the Kynoch payroll who were there for having rendered services other than those of cartridge manufacture - and had the progeny to prove it for whom they collected their regular allowances. Stories no doubt handed down from father to son. But then, IF that were true and IF a daughter had appeared, is it likely that she would have born the name of George's legitimate daughter, or George's surname?

Have you looked for any other marriage of a Gertrude Kynoch?

Sorry to complicate it since, after all, you may well be right.

Chris
 
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Sorry, George, on rereading your earlier post, rather than relying on memory, I see that some of my comments are rubbish.

You state clearly that the marriage of Gertrude did in fact take place before 1891. And that the husband was obviously in the area of Hamstead Hall.

But there are still one or two things which seem surprising and don’t wholly tie up. What on earth went wrong between 1891 and 1901, if it is indeed she?

Chris
 
Chris, If its any help I have just sent for a marriage certificate registration district West Bromwich. I sent off to Sandwell, they replied they didn't have it and kindly forwarded the information I sent to Birmingham Registry Office. My certificate arrived the marriage in 1921 was at St James's Church, Handsworth. At that time it came under West Bromwich. Our local offices are just brilliant by the way!
 
I was born in Hamstead, and christened at Hamstead church, my birth certificate is West Bromwich.:)

The only thing I can add about Gertrude Helen from the 1901 census, is that she is boarding with a Smith family, the husband is not at home n census day, he could have been a brother of William, who I can't find in the 1901 census. In the employment column Gertrude is shown as Own Account, so she is not employed by anyone, which surely she would have been if she were working in a circus - or did she choose which circus she would travel with?

It is such an intriguing story isn't it? A boy from Scotland arrives in Birmingham, leaves his mark as one of our great industrialists, and whose daughter became a Circus Artist. Gosh :)
 
Thanks, Moma P and Di. Now I know that Handsworth and West Bromwich are one and the same place!


A little off-thread but if anyone is interested in one particular period of Kynoch's history, please note the following:
Brian Ferry will be giving a talk about Women’s Work at Witton in World War One at Handsworth Historical Society on Wednesday 14 November at 7.30pm.​
The venue is the New Church Centre, Winleigh Road (off Church Lane), Handsworth. Admission is £1 (members), £1.50 (visitors) and includes coffee + biscuit.​
I understand that all visitors are welcome.

Chris
 
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