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Charles Dickens - Christmas Carol

Thanks for these Thylacine. The pic of Dickens as young man when he wrote A Christmas Carol is a great addition. I too have been unable to find the eText of the original copy.

Thanks also for pointing out the wonderful artistry of Leech. I wonder why he did not use Phiz (Hablot Knight Browne) as he usually did at least for 10 of his books inc Pickwick Papers?

https://www.ibiblio.org/ebooks/Dickens/Carol/Dickens_Carol.htm does give superior representations of the artwork:
 
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Ref post #28.

With respect to the post office in old New Street. It was located at one time on the corner of Bennets Hill but was stated as rather small. From there it moved to a building that was stated to be part of what was the old...New Royal Hotel. It did not say wether the rest of the hotel building still remained and I thought maybe only one wing existed still, for post office use. The whole site was then covered by the Colonade Hotel and the adjacent street was Ethel St. The first picture is again the New Royal. The second picture is an old one of New Street and I wonder if it is when the post office used part of the old building just above the old horse bus. The third picture is of The Colonade Hotel and again Ethel St. The bollard on the corner is a feature of the last two. Is that the last sighting of the New Royal before it dissappeared.

Map ref https://www.british-history.ac.uk/m...=10098&ox=1306&oy=1650&zm=1&czm=1&x=261&y=147
 
What a brilliant thread. I remember feeling proud when Birmingham was mentioned in "Pickwick". Love Christmas Carol, Alistair Sim, but modern Patrick Stewart who does a one man show and recites and acts the book in full is brilliant too. Love the research on "The Royal"
 
Rupert - thanks for this. Comparison between your pictures 1 & 2 is suggestive and if I am understanding your map correctly it was next door to the Theatre Royal and both can be glimpsed in Lines painting https://forum.birminghamhistory.co.uk/showthread.php?t=24024&p=318968#post318968 However, I'm not sure that I can see the Theatre Royal (which lasted until 1957) in your second picture? Great to have a picture of the Colonade though.

Leonardjob - Thanks. Patrick Stewart is always very watchable isn't he?
 
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It hinges on the centre photo being New Street as was anotated in it's title. If that is correct then the slope of New Street right there going backwards to Victoria Square is about right. The rest of New Street is fairly level. The run off down hill to the right is also OK as per the last picture. There is not another possibility for a street running down to the right off New Street is there. I know that bollards abound but that one looks so right. There are many other photo's showing horse busses going down that slope.
That being said, the building facing does not gel with the wing of the drawing...other than main features like rows and numbers also...if you consider that one must have become a door as can be seen. The window boxes have also dissappeared...not something for a government building perhaps. So maybe the one wing was refaced and there are words carved into the front that are tantalizingly just unreadable. The adjacent structure does not tie in also but it is set back a little from the building in question and may suggest that the space between the wings was later filled in to give more rooms perhaps. You will notice that this part is also being demolished in the middle photo.
Aidan, your point about the Theatre Royal is well taken but it was demolished by fire a couple of times and laterly the front became merely a street frontage which is as I remember it and it may be just beyond the lamp post.
 
I suppose it could be Lower Temple Street but New Street has flattened out by the time you get to there. This would have been a temporary location for the post office as it was to move to a new building in Victoria Square. Maybe somone could put a timeline on this.
 
I am not exactly sure where Peck Lane was. If it became Stephenson Place it would have been gone before 1854. The street would have had to be around in the age of Photography so 1850ish onwards. In any case King Edwards school would be right next to it.
 
Came across an article by Peter Ackroyd which gives background to A Christmas Carol, it's reading in Birmingham and how he pared the story down for his stage recitals. Quite interesting background. Here's the link (hopefully I'm not breaking any rules by giving the link).

entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_reviews/article6960518.ece
 
As I have grown older I have appreciated Charles Dickens more, both as a writer and for his social work. This morning I listened to one of his short stories " The Chimes", Whereas "A Christmas Carol " is full of hope and charity "The Chimes " is set at the New Year and is depressing in the never ending poverty of the poor. I thought "Little Nell " was gloomy but "The Chimes" beats it hands down. Though set in London the poverty and conditions could just as well apply to Birmingham of that age.
 
Thylacine said:
Hi Vivienne. Thanks for pointing us to that fascinating review by Dickens expert and biographer Peter Ackroyd. I'm looking forward to reading it today.

Feel free to post links, it's quite OK. Your link was inactive for some reason, though, so here it is again: Peter Ackroyd on A Christmas Carol.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link Vivienne, and the prompt Peter. Brilliant Thread. Enriching, rewarding, comforting, uplifting...and free to all readers! What could be better to an old skinflint like me...bah humbug.
 
That is a great link thanks Vivienne, lovely background and atmos.

Thanks Dennis & Thylacine for the comments & input

I have also tried to dip into CDs other Christmas Stories, Arkrite, but I find them impenetrable for either the reasons you give or because they are overly mawkish (eg The Cricket on the Hearth). I think he tried too hard to continue what he called "the Carol philosophy" to "strike a sledgehammer blow" for the poor, uneducated, and repressed. They certainly do contain a wealth of social history.

Rupert - good point about the roads needing to be >1850s - do we have any map experts that can help please?
 
Well it's a side issue to the thread. I was just trying to establish the location of the old picture and thought that it might be a sighting of the last of the New Royal Hotel right across from your Panorama. Could be an important photo that someone posted here. When I saw the drawing of the hotel I thought I recognised the end of the building. I'll keep working on it from time to time.
 
Peck lane ran by the side of 122 New St and seems to be beside the King Edward’s Grammar school. It disappeared between 1858 and 1862. It did nor bcome Stephenson Place, which was in existence , with Peck St in 1858
mike
 
Thanks Mike. It would seem too early for the photo. The only other street on that side of New St that I have seen on old maps is King St and Worcester St. I don't think it is the latter but do you or anyone else know when King St was lost please?

I don't think this is off-topic as if the photo is of the Royal Hotel/Post Office it would be very rare and have a direct link to Dickens having been mentioned in the Pickwick Papers and where Dickens himself stayed.
 
King st was between nos 114 & 115 New St, and was where Stephenson place later was . The name changed/road was rebuilt between 1849 and 1855. although King street was still listed as coming off New st in 1849, no properties were listed in it (unlike 1845), and so I think the rebuilding was already taking place then.
Mike
 
Thanks Mike - so by elimination, Rupert's theory must be highly likely to be correct - that the picture is of the the one wing of the Royal Hotel on the corner of Ethel St that was converted into the second location of the Post Office and latter covered by the Colonade Hotel. The other wing and main building before we get to the Theatre Royal must have been replaced with the motley collection shown. A fascinating and rare glimpse of New St.
 
If Peck Lane was indeed right next to King Edwards as one map shows, then this is a picture from this forum that shows the entrance to it and it's early neighbors including the extended portico of The Hen And Chickens in the distance. This is the third coming of the school; the first one being in the old Guild Hall. Building of this one would be about 1834/5 from memory. There was a lot of building going on in that area around then...35 to 48
The only other location for the old photo on New Street would be the junction with Lower Temple Street. This is always assuming that the New Street designation is correct.
The roof on the building immediately right looks a bit delapidated...perhaps due for 'redevelopment'. The ...er ..R word. Look how impressive the School looks in those surroundings.
 
As a matter of fact The entrance to Peck Lane on New Street is still there even today. It may not be called anything now and is an alley/cul de sac...but still there unless the area has been re-developed since the latest GE shots. Can't get a street shot because no traffic seems to go down New Street any more.
 
I love to make connections in history to bring it alive and this thread got me thinking about the presentation of the silver salver and the diamond ring to Dickens mentioned earlier. Does anyone know where these were made and by whom? I assume they were products of Birmingham. Are there any pictures of the items and/or are they in a museum as I'd love to see them? Doubtless they are excellent examples of Birmingham craftsmanship. Viv.
 
I do not know if this has been mentioned in the links provided in this thread but Charles Dickens became good friends with Arthur Ryland - Arthur Ryland was a Birmingham solicitor (later Mayor of the city); he founded the Birmingham and Midland Institute (1843), for whose benefit Dickens gave readings in December 1853.
It seems this friendship started in 1844 - when Arthur Ryland wrote to Charles Dickens regarding the recently published Christmas Carol and Charles Dickens replied:

24 January 1844
London. 1 Devonshire terrace, York Gate Regents Park
Sir,
Let me thank you cordially, for your earnest and welcome communication in reference to my little Christmas carol. It has given me real pleasure, I assure you.
Faithfully Yours
Charles Dickens

Over the years they wrote to each other often and the families seem to have become good friends. There are many letters published between the two men and it seems that Arthur Ryland may of provided notes for Dickens to include in his speeches.

GAD’S HILL PLACE, HIGHAM BY ROCHESTER, KENT
14th September 1869

My Dear Ryland (Pray let us drop the “Mr”, after all these years)

I have not received the papers by book post; but I have received your notes, and I find them almost
enough for me, if not quite. I can get a good deal that I don’t know, from what I do, and your touches are exactly the touches for a great audience who are not to be wearied on any account by minute details. The great point is to be suggestive, and leave them the pleasure and interest of some working out in their own part.
Faithfully Yours always
Charles Dickens

Letters seem to indicate that it was Arthur Ryland that invited Dickens to read in Birmingham and was the reason Dickens accepted the role of president of the BMI.

Dees Hotel is mentioned in the letters.
 
Lots of loverly detail there concerning CD and your illustrious ancestor pollypops, thank you. His note of 1869 would seem good description and advice to all posters on this Forum!

The more local BMI seem to have an extensive library and might throw up some details too about their ex-president - https://www.bmi.org.uk/about.html

I wonder if we can get some info n Dee's Hotel too.....
 
Sorry I meant to add that Mikejee had posted about Dees Hotel - that is why I mentioned it in my post.

I hope my post above was not too long but I thought the connection between Arthur Ryland and Dickens was worth mentioning as part of Birmingham history.
 
It was most interesting pollypops, thank you, and certainly worth mentioning.

I did not mean to imply your mail was overly long (especially coming from me!) I just saw a relationship between "I can get a good deal that I don’t know, from what I do, and your touches are exactly the touches for a great audience who are not to be wearied on any account by minute details." could be seen as describing a forum such as this. "The great point is to be suggestive, and leave them the pleasure and interest of some working out in their own part." is good advice (esp for me...)
 
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