Bull Street

[Shortie]

Well that's because he did not live in Birmingham, just visited from time to time Viv. I don't know about that comment, if I had read it, I have forgotten, but knowing him and his friends, I can understand why. He belonged to a group of very cultured people, he had a ferocious wit, and was arguably the most clever person Lichfield ever produced, so to be honest, most people would seem dim to him. I find him very, very fascinating.

 

[ellbrown]

There's this sculpture in Old Square which features Dr Samuel Johnson on it

A friend of Dr Samuel Johnson lived at No. 1 Old Square - a Surgeon and Doctor - Edmund Hector. He was the last man to see Dr Johnson before he died in December 1784.

 

[Shortie]

Now that's nice to know, so Samuel Johnson would have been in Old Square. Next time I walk that way I shall feel quite differently, depsite the buildings being totally different. Thanks Elbrown.

 

[ellbrown]

With the Minories to the back of you, cross the road into Old Square. You will find the Kenneth Budd sculpture to your left.
(If you have come from the direction of the law courts it will be on your right).

No problem Shortie.

Although I found more Dr Johnson things in Lichfield (birthplace) and the City of London (where he lived) !

 

[Shortie]

Elbrown, it's because I live about ten miles from Lichfield that I became interested in Sam Johnson. I have several books and have visited his birthplace many times - each time I see something I have not seen before. One of those men I would love to have known along with I K Brunel and Matthew Boulton. I have not seen anywhere he lived in London, although I do have a couple of addresses. Must put that on the list of must do's.

 

[ellbrown]

Here is a set of mine on Flickr showing some of the Dr Johnson things I found in Lichfield and London Dr Johnson

The one I went to was 17 Gough Square, EC4

 

[Rupert]

That is a fine mural but the Brummies are so grumpy.

 

[Shortie]

I knew about Gough Square but there are others mentioned in Christopher Hibbert's book, although I suspect they were just where he stayed a while, not where he actually lived. It's through reading about him, I found out that Barclay's Bank started life as a brewery - although that's shortening the story a lot.

Interesting photos Ell, including the one of you, I imagined you would be much older!

 

[Vivienne14]

Looks like Johnson had more of a relationship of convenience with Birmingham than any serious attachment to the place. In the 'Poetry and Prose of Samuel Johnson' it says:

Ell, that's a great set of photos. And one observation about Budd's Old Square mural: Samuel Galton, gun maker and Lunar Society member, was disowned by the Friends (Quakers) in 1796 for "fabricating instruments for the destruction of mankind". So that brings us nicely back to (albeit a rather loose) connection with the Meeting House and Dr. Johnson(s) Passage. But it does conjure up a clear sense of community around Old Square, a picture which is very difficult to imagine today, where few people now live.

Rupert - that's not misery on their faces, it's intense concentration and Brummie Enlightenment!

This is yet another view of Bull Street, but I'm not sure I can place it exactly. Is it the junction with High Street/ Dale End? If so it looks like Reece's tobacconists (to the right) has been demolished. Afraid I've no date for this one. Viv.

 

[ellbrown]

Interesting photos Ell, including the one of you, I imagined you would be much older!

I'm 30. Was 27 back then!

You lot must be in your 60s to 70s?

I found several plaques in Lichfield where Dr Johnson went to school (infant and grammar).

Most people I know in their 80s (or 90s) don't have computers or the Internet! (ladies mostly doing knitting or painting).

 

[sistersue61]

And don't forget on the Samuel Johnson theme, their new community hospital is named after him. And Lichfield people think themselves above the Brummies and Tammies still, hear it a lot from patients who come over from Lichfield for treatment, just remind them they don't have an M&S, works wonders lol!

Going back to the fishmongers, would that have been the same shop that was McFisheries in the 1950's mom wonders?
Also, she recalls shopping in McColls for clothes and I remember one coat she had from there too
Sue

 

[Rupert]

Re. post #196. I thought that this was the Old Square and Berlin House but not so I think. It must be the junction of Bull St and Corporation St. looking south along Corporation Street. Hmm tough one. If that is right then Lewis's corner (across the street on the right) seems to have a railing and boards around and maybe the building was being built. Yep, in the building across Bull St. and further down Corporation St. you can see the opening for the Bradford Passage/N.W. Arcade. So about 1885 to early 90s. More construction going on in the distance about where the Cobden Hotel would be. That is a great picture and can be dated by the pressence or absence of features. The buildings on the corner Bull/Corporation Sts. look like they are up for demolition shortly.
There are boards/pailings on the camera side of the street also, which indicates construction going on there too. Much of the picture shows a work in progress or about to be so.

 

[Vivienne14]

Great, thanks Rupert. Using yours/mikejees British History link in post #172, do you mean the photo would have been taken about here on the 1890 map (aqua blue dot) ?



If so, working on your suggestions Rupert I've had a bit of fun this afternoon trying to match up some of the buildings with Suffields 1840s drawing of Bull Street and comparing it with the later photo. Here's the result:


The red dot is Page & Co at 81 Bull Street
The green dots are re-builds after the 1840s Suffield drawing (maybe in connection with the cutting of Corporation Street?)
The blue dots are a very rough idea of where Corporation Street was cut through perhaps

What does everyone think. Agree with Rupert, this is a tricky one. Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

Here's a photo from the opposite direction, maybe the same year. Remember 'MacFisheries' anyone?

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detai...-in-bull-street-birmingham-news-photo/3364698

Hi Sue. In answer to your question in post #198 about Mac Fisheries in Bull Street, this photo which Richie posted earlier on the thread shows it on the left, behind the signpost. If you look carefully further down, next to the tall building with the Boots sign on the side, you can just make out Simpson's. So there were at least two fish shops in Bull Street in the 1960s. Although I think MacFisheries also sold groceries at one time too, but not 100% certain of that though. Viv.

 

[Rupert]

Yes Viv on all counts. I was thinking of doing the same matchup but you beat me to it. The matchup shows the swath cut through. Some of the buildings in the drawing can be easily identified but one or two can not but still look old. The ones on the corner look like they are due to be replaced though. Just going by the blackened brick and the square notices in the windows may be announcing the fact. Further down Corporation St. where the NW Arcade cuts through; the building looks shiny and new. We would have been familiar with this building...well me anyway.
What a super bit of effort. Well done.

 

[Vivienne14]

Enjoyed putting the info together Rupert, your suggestions proved very helpful. Thanks. I'd never have been able to pinpoint the photographer's position as it's changed beyond all recognition.

I've been looking on the new Birmingham Library App ("Dozens and Trails") and there's a lovely photo of the entrance to the Friend's Meeting House. The photo must date pre-1931 as it shows the 1857 building (replaced in 1931). The title calls it "The Old Bull Street entrance", so I presume the entrance was shifted to a different position after 1931. Viv.

 

[Rupert]

What a great find and it ties in the just done research about the improbable looking house and also again, improbable location with no actual street frontage ever. A gem of a piece of information to ...well..just know. I am thinking that there was no opening there in my time but was probably more interested in looking at girls than courtyard entreys in those years. Anyway it seems that Johnson's Passage leads to the much more commercial building now which seems to be built on the grave yard, and I seem to remember, from past stalwarts efforts on this forum, that the grave stones were collected and displayed somewhere. Anyway this past effort adds much more to the knowledge. Apart from now; Dr. Johnson's passage never led to the meeting house I think, but it would have gone right by the grave yard which would probably have been on the other side of a brick wall or small buildings. I think the Johnson's passage was just a short cut between Bull St. and The Upper Priory.

 

[Vivienne14]

Now that's an interesting point Rupert. Despite Bull Street being a main thoroughfare for a very long time, even when the 1703 Meeting House was built, the Friends still chose to place the entrance to the building facing Upper Priory. Hanson's 1778 map shows the gardens/graveyard would have opened directly on to Upper Priory. Wonder why their focus was in that direction? More restful? Better view? Linked easily to Old Square? Did one of the senior Friends have links to Old Square? And even though the 'barn-like' structure had one long wall sitting directly on Bull Street (and assuming the land belonged to the Friends), when it was replaced by the 1856 Meeting House, they chose to build it further back and nearer to Upper Priory. Viv.

 

[Vivienne14]

Think this extract from Selgin's "Ramble 'Round Old Birmingham" might explain why it faced Upper Priory. Now whether the Quakers settled first in Old Square and the Meeting House followed, I don't know. They had an earlier Meeting House prior to the Bull Street 1703 one. It was located on New-hall Lane. Was that what later became Colmore Row? If so it wasn't too far away. Viv.

"We begin at the Square, or at what the locals are already starting to call the "Old" Square. In the 1790s this was one of Birmingham's a prime residential addresses, its fine Georgian brick houses having been especially favored by Quakers."

 

[Rupert]

We are getting back to times when men walked around in ballay tights and women had skirts held out by a dome like corset structure. All of which seems amazing now. Some of the Bull St., 'photo's', never mind paintings, show a society where transportation was entirely powered by horses...in recognizable places where we would have only seen motor vehicles. Some of us anyway. The wagons and coaches on Bull St., made me think of the 'wild west' and the Corporation St., development photo is stunning and I have one to sort out from a few years later to post but have to go out now.

 

[Shortie]

Well Viv, it looks like Samuel Johnson only stayed in Birmingham for a short while somewhere after December 1731 when his father died, and he was gone by 1734. My book is not too clear on whether he stayed the whole of the time, but he stayed initially with Edmund Hector who had (at the time) rooms at The Swan 'near the High Street'. Does anyone know where The Swan was please? He also visited again in 1784, presumably by this time Edmund Hector was living in The Square. He married during his first visit, Elizabeth (Tetty) Porter who was his friend's widow.

 

[Vivienne14]

Hi Shortie. This is the Swan on High Street where SJ would have stayed.
I did wonder if Dr. Johnson Passage was so named, simply because he might have regularly used it to get to Upper Priory/Old Square from Bull Street. Well, maybe we'll never know. All the same it's nice to have tried to visualise his short time in B'ham.

This 1920s aerial view over Lewis's shows Bull Street. Looking at the building that was below the words B Block, set back from Bull Street it seems to be a school. I remember one marked somewhere along there on the 1890 History Online map. Wonder if it belonged to the Meeting House? And did they demolish it as part of the building of the 1930s Meeting House. I can't make out the 1857 Meeting House on this view. Viv.

 

[Shortie]

Thanks for the photo Viv, I remember now I have seen this before, I have it in one of my books, but had completely forgotten. I think the passage may have been named just because of who Johnson was. Before most people could read, and certainly before most of them could afford a newspaper, news of his larger than life character went far and wide. It may have been simply because of his fame. Most people's lives were dull and hard, unless they were rich, so news of a man who was fantastic with words and word play and the man who compiled the first dictionary, would add some colour to their daily grind. At least that's my view, but it could also be because of the fact that his friends were here and so occasioned his visits. As you say, we will never know for sure.

 

[mikejee]

Shortie
Looking at Boswell’s Life of Johnson, Johnsons seems to have been invited in 1733 to visit an old school friend Mr Hector in who was then a surgeon in Birmingham. He stayed at the house of a Mr Warren, the first bookseller in Birmingham, with whom Hector boarded, Johnson wrote essays for Warren’s newspaper., and stayed ar Warren’s house for 6 months, and then found his own lodgings. During his time in Brum he made aquaintences including Mr Porter a mercer and a Mr Taylor, who made a fortune with mechanical inventions. His first full published work was an abridged translation of “A Voyage to Abyssinia”, which was printed in Birmingham, where it was really published, though, as was then common, it states in the book “published in London” . Johnson returned to Lichfield early 1734, but was in Birmingham Nov.25[SUP]th[/SUP] when he sent a letter giving a return address c/o S.Smith, at The Castle , Birmingham
While writing “Life of Johnson”, Boswell & Johnson visited Birmingham in March 1776. They arrived on March 22 and visited a schoolfriend Mr Hector and a Quaker, Mr Lloyd , and discussed the Quaker faith. Boswell visited the Bolton foundry at Soho. They only stayed one day, going on to Lichfield

 

[Rupert]

Here are a couple of photo's for comparison. The first is the photo just posted of the Corporation Street development days around 1885 to 1900 or so and the second one is 40 years later and 1930. They are taken from almost the same location but the second photo is from a little further down Corporation Street past Bull Street. You can see the building containing the N.W. Arcade on both shots...not very old in the first photo. What a difference. No busses or trams or tram lines in the first photo; transport would have been all horse drawn. In the space of forty years this was the resulting scene. The trams would have all made the turn out of the top of Martineau St. onto Corporation St. and the numbers were what we would recognise...10 Washwood Heath...8 Alum Rock. No trafic or busses headed the opposite way in our time.
The second photo has been on here before also but may have been erased.
The first photo would have been the scene for our grand parents and the second photo would be the time when my dad and mom would have been 27/28 and I would not have been born. But many of us would have seen this though. Even after the Blitz most of this would still be around.

 

[mikejee]

To add to this, the 1777 directory lists Edmund Hector, surgeon as being at 1 The Square (that must be Old Square), and Sampson Lloyd, banker as at 13 The Square.
Also the Castle mentioned in #211 was a tavern which was in High St , atr the end of Castle St.

 

[Richie]

Here are a couple of photo's for comparison. The first is the photo just posted of the Corporation Street development days around 1885 to 1900 or so and the second one is 40 years later and 1930. They are taken from almost the same location but the second photo is from a little further down Corporation Street past Bull Street. You can see the building containing the N.W. Arcade on both shots...not very old in the first photo. What a difference. No busses or trams or tram lines in the first photo; transport would have been all horse drawn. In the space of forty years this was the resulting scene. The trams would have all made the turn out of the top of Martineau St. onto Corporation St. and the numbers were what we would recognise...10 Washwood Heath...8 Alum Rock. No trafic or busses headed the opposite way in our time.
The second photo has been on here before also but may have been erased.
The first photo would have been the scene for our grand parents and the second photo would be the time when my dad and mom would have been 27/28 and I would not have been born. But many of us would have seen this though. Even after the Blitz most of this would still be around.

Regarding the "newer" Corporation-Street-from-Bull-Street, here's the very immediate right-hand side in close up on this occasion.

The clue is the Timpson's footwear specialists. Next door to Timpson's is Arcade Chambers, in the 1930 photo still with its classical porch but by 1955 with the photo above modernised to 1930's deco-type streamlining.

There are a few other pictures I've traced on this section, but we've left the junction of Bull Street and in Corporation Street proper with those. Can thread experts advise please?

 

[Rupert]

Threads cross over from time to time and there is no way around it. These photo's axpand on the Bull St thread though ie., taken from Bull Street and the above enlargement helps. With respect to the photo, one wonders why Cherry Street is on the building on a pretty determindly fixed sign. Since this Arcade building was built before Corporation Street was finished before Martineau St. was put through...then this could well have been called Cherry Street or also variously known as Upper Cherry Street. So that coming down Cherry Street, as we know it, a left turn would be made along here and this portion of street would make an abrupt right turn into Crooked Lane which would still be there before martineau Street destroyed half of it. However, I don't think Cherry Street or Upper Cherry Street (take your pick) would have run as far along what would become Corporation Street, as the N.W.Arcade building. So I wonder if it was thought that Corporation Street would be called Cherry Street at one time.
Pity the last photo did not go further to the left; there is more writing on it which may explain.

 

[Rupert]

The following photo is a seemingly everyday scene in the Old Square and is I think later than the early photo of the junction of Bull Street and the new Corporation Street. Not much later though. Still the steam trams seem to be an everyday part of life, now, and not paid attention to at all. Yet five or eight years earlier they must have made a tremendous difference to movement in the city when 'prior to' the slower horse carts and indeed 'shanks pony' where all that was available. No one here seems to think anything at all of an actual steam engine with the issue of smoke and steam...going by on the road. Anyway, this is not the reason for this photo here. It shows the Upper Priory frontage of the sunday school, mentioned in the Bull Street Meeting House posts earlier and the opening into the yard.

 

[Shortie]

Steam train ran from 1884 until 1906. I have a similar photo Rupert, and that is the wording that goes with this, so I can only assume it's right. Don't you wish that we still had all these beautiful buildings? I certainly do.