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Bull Ring until 1920s

Found this drawing on the new Birmingham Libraries App ("Dozens and Trails"). It's an advert for Griffith's Useful Boots. But it's a nice view down to St. Martin's. You get a good impression of how high up the Market Hall was. Wondering what the building is left of the Market Hall. Viv.

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The picture above, showing Hortons (the first shop that Isaac Horton owned, and eventually lead to Hortons' Estate) is the same as one in the library which I believe is dated 1862. Isaac had moved on from his pork business (he started off as a pig breeder) into property and had died by 1880/1881.
 
Hi Viv, I don't think Isaac Horton actaully meant to move to property, but he bought another shop near or next to the one in the Bull Ring, sold that, and so on and so forth. He built the Midland Hotel, the Grand Hotel and many other properties. Hortons' Estate (the apostrophe is in the right place, as it refers to many Hortons) owns huge swathes of Birmingham, including a lot of New Street. I used to work for a firm of surveyors to whom Hortons' Estate were clients, so go to know several people from there, and also Peter Horton, the youngest at the time, worked in my office, before he was despatched off to the family firm. I know about Isaac long before the time when I 'discovered' Key Hill, which is where Isaac is buried. I had not noticed the 'by appointment' crest, that's very interesting.
 
Great that you had that connection Shortie, must have been an interesting job. Hortons' designed some beautiful buildings and thankfully some have survived. Must be especially motivating to see life being pumped back into the Grand. Viv.

P.S. I've shifted my apostrophe!!
 
I like this 1905 'coloured in' view of the Bullring, somehow it seems to bring it all to life. But of course it may not be realistic (seems to have a bit of a pink thing going on!). We're so used to seeing only B&W views of the old Bullring of this period. (Difficult to know these days which 'old' a person is referring to given the many reincarnations it's had). I thought this view was quite a refreshing change. Wonder if Bank's Cough Emulsion (far right) was anything to do with the brewers? Seems to be a lot going on in the photo. The Market Hall looks architecturally more interesting in colour and there's a nice little chapel (?) next door. And look at all those chimney pots! How many fireplaces did these houses have? Viv.

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Found a couple more tinted (?) views but one is strange. The top view has many similarities to the second one, but it looks like a composite perhaps? The reason I was originally interested in these was because they show the statues of the children around the base of Nelson's statue mentioned earlier. But then looking closer they have many similarities including a ladder leaning up against St. Martin's Church (to the left of the tower) and the two men sitting on the stall. Viv.
 
The little chapel is the fish market which I suspect is often confused with the market hall; where they also sold fish. Perhaps the fish market was wholesale. Maybe the two similar photo's were taken as a series at the same time from slightly different perspectives. The church clock is the same time.
The fish market does look like a little doric building though...if that is the right word. Must have walked past it many times and never noticed. I wonder what style the Market Hall was supposed to be and I still think that the other end in Wordester Street was intended to be the front. Hardly ever used that end though.
 
Thanks Rupert. That would explain the two similar photos. Yes, they'd have to have been taken from slightly different perspectives as the chimney appears to the left then the right of Nelson's statue.

Re. post # 565, was trying to remember if Oswald Bailey's sold not only men's clothes, but did they sell camping gear too? Or am I confusing that with another shop? Viv
 
The second photo in post #568 looks like it was taken from this B & W 1903 "Bygone Birmingham" collection. Viv.

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A painting by the artist Paul Braddon, painted later than the scene it portrays (but before 1938). The Swan With Two Necks to the left and, I assume, St. Martin's Churchyard to the right. What a very high boundary wall to the churchyard! Viv.

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Viv
St Martins uncovered, by Megan Brickley et al states that several house in St Martins had outhouses which encroached onto the churchyard. In 1781 this area of land was purchased by the church to enlarge the area available for burials, and this new area was enclosed by a new boundary wall topped with iron railings. A pencil sketcg very like the view in your picture is also given, and this is dated as 1840
 
Thanks Mike. They do look very similar. Braddon's painting doesn't seem to give the fork in the road centre left, leading behind the Swan with Two Necks. In the second painting there looks like a couple of market stalls on that corner, so I presume it was a road or passageway. But of course we know that Braddon's paintings often portrayed a nostalgic look back at old Birmingham. Viv.
 
Taking us back to a time when there was still a moat in the Bull Ring; an 1800 sketch of the Moat and Moat Lane. Viv.

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This is an intriguing piece of advertising for the ironmongers, Jenkins and Clark. Wondering why the postman is posing in the photo. (Well I assume it's a postman, maybe not) And there's a reflection of a building in the upper window. Was that the Market Hall? I hope the photographer didn't take too long over this photo, risky business posing under that row of garden forks, especially if the wind was up. Viv.

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On the 1851 census John Clark is a lodger.

Name Relationship Mar Age Sex Occupation Birthplace
Mary JENKINS Head U 36 F Ironmonger Birmingham-WAR
John JENKINS Neph - 6 M --- Houndsditch-MID
John CLARK Lodg U 37 M Ironmonger Partner Cheltenham-GLS
George HAYWOOD Appr - 16 M Ironmonger App Tewkesbury-GLS
John WATSON Appr - 15 M Ironmonger App Over Whitacre-WAR
Address: 6 Digbeth, Birmingham
Census Place: Birmingham Birmingham, Warwickshire
PRO Reference: HO/107/2053 Folio: 347 Page: 2 FHL Film: 0087311
 
Interesting Nick. I'd assumed Jenkins & Clark would be a male partnership, but Jenkins was a female ironmonger - maybe her brother's business? Maybe he'd passed away as she was looking after his 6 month old son. So I guess the (suited) man in the photo is John Clark, the lodger (!). And maybe the two apprentices were to cover each of the two shops. Adds some interesting colour and background to the ad - thanks. Viv.
 
Hi guys if you are interested in the life of the bull ring and its formation going back to the 1700.s
And how it formed may I suggest you buy the book by victor , j Pryce its called
The bull ring remembered its starts from the early days of the old area as it was with the building of the oriniginal bull ring
With maps and listing of pubs and and pictures and the parishes and the abbitairs
There was twenty five pubs in all with there named changed and of the old streets before changing and of the slum clearance to make way for a bull ring
In the 1600 s and most of the pubs of the twenty five have gone but there is still one or two left from that era. Today and listing of pub owners far back in the 1800 s
There are names of people whom was first to by a bussineess with in the bull ring
One was Mr c, green, and sons, no, 10 bullring, :-) openened by Cornelius green :-) in 1895. And closed in 1934 they had a assistant
Fred tullett,this shop opened in the 19 the century and was there for many years
They specialized in leather goods, boxing gloves , footballs, purses , cases for travelling, all were made on the premises
One year Mr green made a 6 ft high leather foot ball , and the police borrowed. This for there their sports day in Aston park
Police on horse back played football with it
At the rear of the premises was a court yard , known as golden court, it had 4 cottages and a lodging house called pump lodgings
This was run by a Mr Davis , he used to take in tramps and charged them 2 pence per night ,
In those days they were gentlemen and whom could be trusted, in the centre of the court yard was a a water pump,
One of many errected in the area for the supply of water,
In his younger days, sir Adrian Cedric boult,the well known musician. ,rented a room in the court yard to practice,
He was the founder. Of the.BBC symphony orchestra. 1930. To 1950. He was born in 1889 and died in 1983
There was interesting aspect of these premises is,that under the premises, leading off the cellar was a tunnel leading to st martins church
It is not known why this tunnel was originally built but,it could have been an escape route from the churches,
Just like Aston hall the story of Aston parish church tunnel excistances how many more possible church tunnels exist
I have heard the story of the one in st Paul's in the st Paul's square and there drawing on the wall under ground from the moastry to across to the church tunnel
I sincerelyreomend this book of the bull ring remembered and its written by victor , j , Pryce and incidently there is a picture of him in it in is choir out fit
Best wishes astonian,,,,,,,
 
Hi Guys,
Many Years Ago long before the Bull Ring Was ever Thought about and in 1750
There was A Survey Of The Area By Samuel Bradford,
Of The Houses, And Its Inhabinitants in The Area,, Details as Follows,

Area Houses , Inhabitants,,,

Edgbaston St, 151. 879.....
Moor St, 195. 1076....
Moat Lane, 43. 252....
Park St, 156. 944.....
Spiceal St, 41. 249.....
Bell St, 39... 179......
Phillip. St, 38. 213...
Corn cheaping. 29.. 162.
Digbeth, 303. 1646,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
995. 5600
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
In later Years All These houses were demolished. And The Inhabitants moved to other areas of the city,
Business premises were then Errected
Best Wishes Astonian,,,,,
 
Interesting Alan. Would love to have seen the police playing on horseback with the 6ft football. Also interesting about the tunnels. Yes it does make you wonder how many churches had them.

I was surprised about the number of inhabitants stats. The average per household works out at about 5 - 6 people. I know the houses would have been smaller, but seems quite low for the time. Maybe they just counted adults in the figures. Viv.


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Hi Viv,
The Report Comes From A Public Building what Used To be in Moor street Prior To 1800 s,
The said building Was A Big Building A Slight Look A Like Curzon Street And The Queens Hotel long and huge
And It Had To Be Government Building Surely, Conducting Of A public Offices ,A Magistrates Court , and a Prison,
prior To 1800 s, Birmingham Was Run by Street Commissioners, and the main. Centre of administration Was in the Bull Ring
And High Street, But they had no official place of meeting, In1807. These public offices were errected and openened,
The first meeting took Place in December of This Year ,
The ground Floor was used by The street commissioners, The upper Floor as the magistrates court, the rear of the premises
Was The Prison , The High Bailiff at this time was Henry Perkins, the Lower Bailiff, Thomas Small, and the constables
Were Joseph Blunt and Thomas Whately and the survey was made by Samuel Bradford of the houses and inhabinants within the area
As you say viv they was little tiny house way back then but also looking back in reflection it was a generation of little folk
And years later We get a generation of tall folk its like today's kids we was all little kids but today they are one hell of tall kids of today
Viv , if you have not got the book may I suggest it to you its a very good book it cost 5 pounds 95 pence
Its a glossy book cover and its called the bull ring remembered by victor j Pryce and it also says on the front cover
The heart of birmingham and market areas,
Victor price is Birmingham born and a keen local historian, a former army officer and civil servant,
The bull ring is his sixth title and all his books have been published by brew in books
Viv , one question or anybody whom may read this thread this commisionaires title if you look back in time
All these guys known as commissionares most big companies through out brum at least always had these guys in uniform
With stripes and medals whilst working gate duties at these factory's are they ex regiments or what can you enlighted any further on this
Many thanks astonian,,,, Alan,,,,
 
Thanks Alan, another book to add to my long list! Commissionaires is defined as
"mid 17th century: from French, from medieval Latin commissarius 'person in charge', from Latin committere 'entrust' "

And you're right about where commissionaires came from. Here's an extract from Wikipedia.

"It can also refer to an employee of a Corps of Commissionaires. The original Corps of Commissionaires was founded in England during 1859 by Captain Sir Edward Walter, K.C.B. (1823–1904) to provide employment for former members of the armed services".

I suppose they've partly been replaced (but not in hotels) by security guards. But still many of these are ex-armed forces too. Viv.





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Bull Ring St Martins 1 copy.jpgBull Ring 1920s.jpgBull Ring girls with stick and cup.jpg



FACEBOOK SITE: I use it to nick photos for this and all my other sites...it is quite good for the odd photo, especially those by Tom Burke (who recently posted the above gems), who regularly finds ones I've never seen!! ...but mainly it seems to be for for the browser who adds a pic, often without any text or pertinent comment, and folks just reply with one line personal reminiscenses...'I lived two doors down' sort of thing...and that is totally fine....but it ain't mainstream History to me....but then when I link to BHF stuff on there, it mostly falls on stony ground or is ignored...so be it...different strokes etc...it has it's uses, and is VERY friendly and well policed by Wendy and Colin Baker...end of diatribe...!
 
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smashing pics dennis new to me.. thanks for posting them on here...especially for myself and others who do not use facebook...

great stuff

lyn
 
Like many others, I don't do facebook, or twitter, or any of those othere similar boards, so I rely on BHF for my info & catch-ups. I really enjoy browsing through the photos on here, don't post much mainly because there's plenty people here know far more than me about most things, & I don't know all the areas that the pics show. But I love Birmingham & all things Brummy, it's where I was born, have lived and probably always will live, So, many thanks for postings, & don't lose heart. Lesson to self: acknowledge the efforts of others.
 
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