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Bull Ring until 1920s

I'm not sure that you actually see spiceal St there, but the short length of road leading to it. I think on this 1750 map the viewpoint is approximately where the blue arrow is, and the bit you can see in the centre is in purple. It doesn't seem to have a name that i can find

area_around_st_martins_1750_showing_viewpoint.jpg
 
Hi, I'm not sure how acurate the drawing will be, it is by Samuel Lines Senior, who would have remembered the original area (born 1778), but there is no date on the original so it could be from memory or earlier sketches. I will try and find out some more info on when the drawing was made. There were no names, that I know of, of the routes between the buildings, as it was a really makeshift area. It's great to see the drawing in context with the map.
 
Mike

I agree the drawing is at the bottom of The Shambles to the left of the Old Cross and of of Corn Cheaping at the bottom. Spiceal St (Spicer St) was to the right of the Old Cross as can be seem in these two drawings.
 

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The well pump in the picture post #444 is also shown in picture #452/2, outside the church gate...still remaining after the buildings were demolished.
 
The pump was nicknamed "Pratchetts Pump". This is an extract from Harry Howells Horton's "Birmingham: a poem" 1853

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Viv
 
The area was certainly changing from 20 years earlier.

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When the old houses were removed the church gates were permanently locked, cutting off a public walkway through the churchyard. The churchyard had become so full of bodies that the ground around it became coniderably more raised - an original, lower boundary wall had been unconvered. From "The portrait of Birmingham" 1825, here's a nice description of the activities in the triangular area which was cleared once the old houses were removed. Love the mention of the Beadle and his scales! Viv.

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What a load for that donkey!
Thank you Dennis, I didn't realise a cart could be piled so high!
rosie.
 
Dennis
The second photograph must have been taken between 1900 & 1903. The Midland parcels office was not listed there in the 1900 Kellys (though it could have been there at some time in that year), Edwin Eades and the Midland office were listed here in the 1903, Kellys, but Eades had changed to Clement & Toon, hardware dealers in the 1904 Kellys
 
mikejee said:
Dennis
The second photograph must have been taken between 1900 & 1903. The Midland parcels office was not listed there in the 1900 Kellys (though it could have been there at some time in that year), Edwin Eades and the Midland office were listed here in the 1903, Kellys, but Eades had changed to Clement & Toon, hardware dealers in the 1904 Kellys
Click to expand...

Thanks mike, and now can you confirm this caption ?clanger? Was there ever such a place as Moat ROAD? Fascinating shot though...loved the sign for a Whip maker...and what was that hole in the wall for? Altogether the buildings look a bit 'run down'...

Moat Road 1880s tram.jpg
 
As you no doubt know Dennis, this was Moat row. there probably was/ps a moat road somewhere, but not in birmingham
 
The previous photo shows a state of decrepitude of the buildings even then. I suppose they were a hundred years old likely still even we would remember a similar state up to the 1960s in some areas. One wonders what the infrastructure would have been like when new. Good new addition.
 
I wonder if any of moms rels worked at the whip makers, her moms family were renon whipmakers to the gentry and were Birmingham based from the 1890's, though I am not sure exactly where.
Sue
 
I love this painting of the Bull Ring. Old Market Hall to the right, St. Martin's straight head. I can almost smell the chestnuts roasting somewhere down there! To me this picture has great atmosphere. Don't know the date or artist, looks about 1920s maybe? Or possibly even later. Viv.

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What a wonderful, atmospheric painting Viv, makes you really want to be there does't it, makes my great old city seem so alive.
paul
 
That's true Paul. We now need a evening view Ell of your photo #461 to compare with # 459! Would it create a similar atmosphere I wonder? Viv.
 
Vivienne, just spotted your post 459 paintiing of the Bullring at night, what a wonderful atmospheric painting that is, love it, my sort of painting. Cannot guess the Artist, looks a bit like Eric Bottomly but I don't think it is. I think this is were painting beats photography, porrtraying atmosphere (some photographers may disagree with me - just an opinion). Eric
 
Totally agree Eric. I don't know the artist's name but it was produced as a Raphael Tuck oilette postcard. It's a lovely scene. I think it's the light and reflections which draw me to it. I have the same love of paintings which depict iron furnaces, candlelight scenes etc, simply because of the magic quality of the light. There are a few more night street scenes which I'll post on the relevant threads. Viv.
 
Nice pics Vivienne...some more of that spot (or near enough for Jazz as my old dad used to say..) Dudley Street, Worcester Street, Edgbaston Street, Pershore Street, Bath Passage, Smallbrook Street Junction...phew six ways...


Dudley Street, Smallbrook Road, Worcester St, Pershore Street 1886.jpgDudley St Pub Map.jpgDudley st and Market Map 1890.jpgDudley Street 1950.jpgDudley St now.jpg

The B&W map is courtesy of mikejee, who posted it originally, and shows the Kings Head Hotel, and the Apple Tree Pub buildings site next door marked in green and yellow....photo 1886, Maps 1888 (I think), so the 'Apple Tree and Kendall's Hat shop etc. had gone at Map recording time..?

The 1950s shot next shows my old haunt Alex's Pie Stand...and the final one is the Bus Depot that replaced them all...
 
Hi Dennis. Love the 1886 view of Dudley etc. Street. I'd be surprised if Kendall's (late Keel) was still capable of producing 'good' hats from those premises. Look at the state of the building! Windows missing, brickwork patched or falling apart. But I wonder what the word 'opposite' refers to exactly?Had they moved to the opposite side of the road? Or was it simply a general advert i.e. making use of space on an empty building to promote products/services found elsewhere. And so many of these photos invariably have people standing in the road. Unlikely to see that today in most cities.

The Midland Red bus station brings back a few memories, but they all seem to be tinged with the smell of fish and chips! My friend and I used to cut through there to get to Silver Blades ice rink/bowling alley. Although I can't think for the life of me how we got there, just remember cutting through there. Viv.
 
Dennis
The buildings you are talking about in dudley St had indeed gone by the time of the map, but the one on the right was not Kendalls. The lettering advertised Kendalls, which was on the opposite side of the road and which must have been the store with the ornamental lamp (which makes it look like a pub),

Viv Have just seen your post , and this answers your question
 
There is another aspect to this that should not be ignored and that is what the bulls represent. The Bull Ring was just a name to me and I don;t know that I ever gave any consideration to it. I thought probably that it was a ring like the Spanish ones but could not see some how Englishmen prancing about in tights with a cloak and a sword on the side of a hill. Nelson would have fallen off his plinth. So maybe a stockyard then, for display and bidding. Alas, not either. The ring part...from here...was just a forged wrought iron ring, cemented securely into the ground. There are pictures showing it on this thread.
So, you tied the bull up to it for inspection then. No, not that either and the bull is not pulling to get away from being restrained. Yes, there is an aspect that is missing that the cardboard signs and the statue do not show by design. An important part of the whole thing were the snarling bull dogs goreing the bulls head. Thats what the bull was trying to get away from and being held back by the chain and Ring. I find it hard to believe that folk would turn up to witness such a barbaric display which was supposed to tenderize the meat I understand. Anyway; different times and circumstances. So, all in all why not get rid of the unfortunate bull and the ring connotation, and the dogs that were never shown and rename the place. It's nothing like the place it was anyway and never will be again. Now it could be 'Saint Martin's Square' and hopefully could be for some time to come.
 
Rupert
Quite apart from the inhumanity of treating animals like that, I understand that it is now been shown that getting animals agitated makes meat tougher ! So, if the purpose of the treatment was to tenderize the meat, it was counterproductive
 
According to "activbirmingham" website it's debatable whether bull baiting actually took place in the Bull Ring:

"The origin of the Bull Ring name is unclear and whilst bull baiting was very popular with the lower classes, there appears to be no factual evidence to suggest that anything associated with bulls, such as bull baiting, ever took place on the site. A John Cowper, in 1530, was allegedly granted permission from the then Lord of the Manor to bait a bull in the 'Bull Ring' if he so desired, although a later historian, Joseph Hill suggests that such information was totally inaccurate. Reference to bull baiting in the central Bullring can, however, be found in some Birmingham associated books, so who knows which is fact and which is fiction?"

Source: https://www.activbirmingham.com/info/birminghambullring-3279.html

Viv.
 
The ring is in a picture posted here Viv. Not what I thought...the name of an area of some description but a simple iron ring cemented, as stated, in the ground. Just to tether an animal to; right outside of St Martins. One ring says it all wether used or not. Anyway, thanks for the link. It paints a much different picture of todays reality; so that thoughts about past associations and decrepitude will be put to bed.
 
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