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Birmingham Steam Buses 1824-1910.

Steady as She Goes!

Cheer up everyone! We've been doing valuable and interesting historical research on important aspects of Birmingham and Midlands technological and social history. In the process we have from time to time set events in a broader context, which is essential for a full understanding of the subject. And we have set it all in a framework of friendly banter and harmless play-acting: necessary for all intellectual and creative work. If we have offended anyone that's a shame - and it was unintended. But I don't think we have sinned grievously. So let's steam ahead (perhaps a little more cautiously). :)
 
Come on, chaps, the gentlest of nudges/timely reminders shouldn't discourage anyone from, as Thylacine puts it, "steaming ahead".

This thread has produced some real nuggets of historical information and let's hope there are more to come.

Chris
 
Who were Ogle and Summers?

I would like to explore further Nathaniel Ogle and William Alltoft Summers, whose steam-carriage travelled from Southampton to Liverpool (via Birmingham) in August and September 1832.

They were both based at Milbrook or Millbrook (near Southampton, Hampshire) in 1832 as "patent steam boiler-makers, engineers and iron-founders". There was a third partner (Brooke James Greville) until 24 June 1832.

On 5 June 1837 a "fiat of bankruptcy" was issued against Nathanial Ogle "late of 58 Baker Street, Portman Square, Middlesex, formerly of Millbrook, Hampshire, now or late of Camberwell, Surrey, steam carriage builder and steam carriage boiler-maker, dealer and chapman". This bankruptcy was discharged on 2 January 1838. By 1857 Ogle appears to have been living in Jersey: he was granted patent no 1391 (16 May 1857) for "an improved method for propelling and ventillating ships"

He is sometimes referred to as Captain Ogle, and the London Gazette does record the rise through the ranks (of the army) of a Nathaniel Ogle in the period 1785-1793, but this sounds a little early for our man, doesn't it? The is also a Nathaniel Ogle of Kirkley, Northumberland, who was appointed Sheriff in November 1813 and again on 12 November 1814, but again this doesn't sound like our man.

William Alltoft (sometimes spelled Altoft) Summers appears to have remained at Millbrook, Hampshire, for quite a while. John Thomas Groves left a partnership with Summers and Charles Arthur Day ("engineers, millwrights, iron founders and general dealers") on 27 May 1845. Summers and George Manwaring (of Southampton) were granted a patent for "improvements in supplying water for water-closets, for the flushing of drains and for general purposes" on 16 May 1854. William Baldock left a partnership with Summers and Charles Arthur Day ("engineers, millwrights, iron founders and general dealers") on 31 May 1854. On 8 December 1858 Summers and Andrew Lamb (engineers of Southampton) were granted a patent for "improved arrangements for superheating steam". And on 10 February 1859 a partnership between Summers and Charles Arthur Day ("engineers, millwrights, iron founders, iron ship builders and general dealers" of Northam, Hampshire) was dissolved by mutual consent.

Also in the London Gazette we read of the death on 8 February 1881 of William Alltoft Summers ("gentleman of Kingston-upon-Hull"). But this WAS had been in partnership with George Bowden Summers as "seed crushers" (of Kingston-upon-Hull) until 19 November 1875. I'm not at all sure if this is our man.

Any information from BMD, Census and other records about Ogle and Summers will be most welcome.
 
Probably nothing, but in The Universal Directory of 1791 a William Summers was a brewer in Southampton (and a Newton Ogle was Dean of Winchester, apparently resident in Southampton)
 
The Times newspaper archive shows a letter from Nathaniel Ogle published on August 19, 1830 describing a trial run in one of his vehicles in east London.

It also bears many references in the mid-1840s to a Nathaniel Ogle who was a director of a number of railway companies including the York and Lancaster. He lived in Twickenham and appears to have been a Civil Engineer. Probably a different person.

No doubt irrelevant also but there was an Ogle family in East Shropshire around 1820 and later. John Ogle was an ironmaster.

Chris
 
My tuppence worth is:

Nathaniel Ogle
Born c:1796 - my guess a local boy - 1797 Southampton to Nathaniel & Anna Maria
Jun 1841 living at Albemarle St, Westminster, London W1S, UK as Independent Gent around the corner from Baker St
Oct-Dec 1841 married at St George's nearby to Helen Acton (for love or money?)
Children:
* Harman Chaloner Ogle Mar 1843 in Bromley/Orpington Kent
* Helen Percival Ogle - Sep 1844 Brentford
* Catherine Camilla Ogle - Mar 1846 Brentford
* Walter Percival Acton Ogle - Dec 1847 Brentford
1851C on Jersey with wife and 4 kids living on an Annuity (nice...)
Possibly dies 1856 but no evidence
 
...and the other 1d:

William Alltoft Summers
Born: c1809 in Hull
Married: Mary Hague of Spitalfields on 5 Sep 1829 at St George in the East by license
Children:
* William Alltoft Summers - 1832 Millbrook, Southampton (Seed crusher)
* George Bowden Summers - 1833 Millbrook, Southampton (Seed crusher)
* Jane Francis Summers - 1844 Millbrook, Southampton
1851C - In Denzil Place (Avenue?) Southamption - Engineer & ? (ship builder)
1861C - In Thwaite (Street?) Cottingham, Hull - Retired Engine Maker
1871C - Sculcoates, Hull - Income from Dividends (nice...)
Death - Mar 1881 - Sculcoates, Hull
 
Re: Who were Ogle and Summers?

Thylacine said:
...
Also in the London Gazette we read of the death on 8 February 1881 of William Alltoft Summers ("gentleman of Kingston-upon-Hull"). But this WAS had been in partnership with George Bowden Summers as "seed crushers" (of Kingston-upon-Hull) until 19 November 1875. I'm not at all sure if this is our man....[/SIZE][/FONT]
Click to expand...

The seed-crushing industry built Hull in the C19th, esp around Sculcoates- but that would be a different topic & forum - see https://www.crowlestreetkids.com/hist100.htm for intro
 
Re: Who were Ogle and Summers?

Thylacine said:
... in the London Gazette we read of the death on 8 February 1881 of William Alltoft Summers ("gentleman of Kingston-upon-Hull"). But this WAS had been in partnership with George Bowden Summers as "seed crushers" (of Kingston-upon-Hull) until 19 November 1875. I'm not at all sure if this is our man ...
Click to expand...

Clearly this is indeed our WAS, even though your BMD research gives his death as March 1881. The LG entry is a notice concerning his estate, so do you think we should accept the 8 February date?
 
Indubitably - a month without a date generally refers to the quarter that the event transpired ie Jan-Mar 1881.

08 Feb 1881 quod erat demonstrandum
 
Just for the record, here's the LG entry (16 August 1881):
WILLIAM ALLTOFT SUMMERS, Deceased.
Pursuant to the Act 22 and 23 Victoria, cap. 35, intituled "An Act to further amend the Law of Property, and to relieve Trustees." NOTICE is hereby given, that all creditors and others having any claims or demands against the estate of William Alltoft Summers, formerly of the borough of Kingston-upon-HuIl, Gentleman (who died on the 8th day of February, 1881, and whose will was proved by Mary Summers and George Bowden Summers, two of the executors thereof, in the York District Registry of the Probate Division of Her Majesty's High Court of Justice on the 11th day of March, 1881), are hereby required to send in the particulars of their claims or demands to the under-signed, the Solicitors for the executors, on or before the 1st day of October next, after which date the said executors will proceed to distribute the assets of the deceased among the parties entitled thereto, having regard to those claims only of which they shall then have had notice, and the executors will not be liable for the assets, or any part thereof, so distributed to any person whose claim or demand
they shall not then have had notice. — Dated this 12th day of August, 1881.
ENGLAND, SAXELBYES, and SHARP, 2, Quay-street-chambers, Hull, Solicitors.​
 
Great find, Molesworth. Our Mr Summers was obviously one of the very few steam carriage pioneers who died rich. Good on him! :cool:
 
William Symington (1764-1831) the First of the First.

[Molesworth has mentioned the name "Symington" somewhere on this thread before (I'm still waiting for Obi-Wan Kenobi to materialise with a "BSB Index" scroll under his arm! :010:).]

Scottish engineer William Symington (1764-1831) exhibited a model steam carriage in 1786 which was the progenitor of all later steam carriages which were built in or travelled to Birmingham. This model, which is pictured below, was not developed further, but Symington went on to design and build the "first practical steam boat" in 1801-1802. William Fletcher's History and Development of Steam Locomotion on Common Roads (1891) tells the story (and supplies the picture). Sadly, William Symington did not die a rich man.

[In his later years, Symington lived in London, and on his journey there from Scotland he may well have passed through Birmingham. ;)]
 
Symington is more widely known for his work on steam powered canal boats, the best known being the 'Charlotte Dundas' named after the daughter of his sponsor of the time, Lord Dundas.
He could have improved his carriage design by incorporating some of the later developments in the boats, but stayed 'waterborne' in his pusuit of steam power.
 
Great find. I can't see where Bowie (Molesworth theatrically grabs hand away from keyboard a la Dr Strangelove) proves that Symington was the inventor of Steam Carriages as I could only find mention of his model. However nice that this copy had been corrected
 
Yes indeed! As Bowie states (pp 7-8):
But with a sense of honour which redounds to his credit, he would not allow his friendly advisors, or his patron, Mr Meason, to embark in an undertaking to which the state of the roads in Scotland, and the difficulty of procuring fuel and water, presented, in his opinion, insurmountable objections. Besides, he was the more easily induced to abandon his experiments on land carriage, by a belief in the possibility of more advantageously employing steam for the purpose of navigation.​
After this it's boats all the way! :rolleyes:
 
A moment please, Mr. President, [Molesworth stomps one foot on the tile floor, pushes back from the table and begins wheeling towards the discussion] I have a plan for a steam-driven carriage with a flash-burner using Cobalt Thorium G....
 
I'm a bit slow. Dr Strangelove, I presume!

[Sudden attack of paranoia causes desperate attempt to keep "chat" below the radar ... :shocked:]
 
It should not be difficult mein Fuhrer, I mean Mr. President. [Right arm rolls Molesworth's steam-wheelchair backwards...Struggles with wayward right arm and gloved hand attempts to strangle him. Ad inf...]
 
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