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Birmingham buses

A few years ago I attended a talk by an operations manager for First Bus. He said that they were under pressure to keep up with the Euro emmission categories and disability access laws. Also their fuel subsidy was being reduced. He said that (at that time) their recent fare increase hadn't increased revenue. Making provision for wheelchairs meant that bus bodies had to be stiffer as they lost the bracing provided by seating. Add the need for TV cameras, fleet management and customer Wi-Fi and it is easy to see that all the big operators must be under great pressure to keep updating their fleets. He didn't say so but perhaps local authorities impose conditions on them too? First bus had introduced driver monitors with a 'traffic light' indicator to try and get drivers to drive smoothly. That hadn't gone down too well until they made it something of a competition to get a good score!
Historically (1950/60s) didn't London Transport make publicity films about how they would strip down and virtually re-build their buses? Like this.
 
WW2 bus delieries were controlled by the Ministry of War Transport. There were some unusual buses in many fleets. As far as BCT and Midland Read was concerned most deliveries were of the severe looking utility buses, some initially painted grey which did not get fleet colours until after WW2. Quite a few buses needed a repaint, wear worn or damaged which got a grey livers as did many trams. They were a mixture of Daimler and Guy with various body makes. There were a few unusual buses received which were to pre-war standards and were known as 'frozen' as they should have been delivered to other companies. BCT got three Leyland TD7's (intended for Western Scottish MT) FON 329 - 331 (1329 - 1331) and four Daimler FVP 320 - 323 (1320 - 1323) which were unusually for the UK at the time 8ft. wide. They had been intended for Johannesburg.
Wartime damage was 41 trams and 20 buses completely destroyed due to enemy action but damage of one sort or another was inflicted on very many more. Bodies of old withdrawn buses were often fitted to badly damaged buses. 20 bodies due to be fitted to Manchester Daimlers were also acquired as their chassis at Coventry were destroyed by enemy action.
 
Spargone said:
A few years ago I attended a talk by an operations manager for First Bus. He said that they were under pressure to keep up with the Euro emmission categories and disability access laws. Also their fuel subsidy was being reduced. He said that (at that time) their recent fare increase hadn't increased revenue. Making provision for wheelchairs meant that bus bodies had to be stiffer as they lost the bracing provided by seating. Add the need for TV cameras, fleet management and customer Wi-Fi and it is easy to see that all the big operators must be under great pressure to keep updating their fleets. He didn't say so but perhaps local authorities impose conditions on them too? First bus had introduced driver monitors with a 'traffic light' indicator to try and get drivers to drive smoothly. That hadn't gone down too well until they made it something of a competition to get a good score!
Historically (1950/60s) didn't London Transport make publicity films about how they would strip down and virtually re-build their buses? Like this.
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What a great slice of history lovely little film.
The record keeping for each bus, the file on each was almost like a medical history I am sure from the womb to the tomb.
Those London buses must have been real clean no one in the film had dirt on their hands, but the guys in the cow gowns the guy working the overhead crane wearing a hat great shots, would have never thought the interior roof panels were painted with a roller
massive complex and in that short film we only get to see the icing on the cake but it does show what a investment was made just to maintain the fleet
The turn around time for a refurb and the amount they completed each week a well-oiled operation.
Steering and brakes highlighted in film pushing the safety side, been many years since I have seen or used the brake test meter which was used on the MOT test
Where would we be with out you tube a couple of clicks and we get to see all kinds of things, with out you tube this film would be lost except for a small few.
This part of the buses I really find interesting not just the maintenance part but the whole thing, I feel we are missing a real part of bus history, sure the buses them selves are the star of the show, but who printed the tickets and were they a Birmingham firm how many tickets were clipped each week keeping in mind the life of a ticket may have been 2 stops
So many questions, a duck looks so graceful going along the water till you get to look under the water and see what the feet are doing that blue and cream bus approaching that bus stop looked so good for many reasons but it took a lot of paddling to get there
 
I was still driving Bristol VRT.s for First Bus in 2003 which were over 20 years old. Had a none blameworthy accident in one and the garage manager told me that the maximum repair cost couldn't exceed £500 or the vehicle would be scrapped.
 
nickcc101 said:
I was still driving Bristol VRT.s for First Bus in 2003 which were over 20 years old. Had a none blameworthy accident in one and the garage manager told me that the maximum repair cost couldn't exceed £500 or the vehicle would be scrapped.
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Midland Red had a similar approach with 'end of life' vehicles, in the 1970s it was £50 not counting parts in the depot's stores, or they would be delicenced and join the 'scrap line'.
 
Further to my post, 1713, I later remember that Midland Red had two of these buses with bodies originally destined for Manchester Corporation. They were partially built at Saltley but completed at Weymann, Addlestone and delivered in 1943. The BCT version were Daimlers but these two vehicles were Guys. They were rebuilt, giving them a more modern appearance, in 1951 and survived until 1956 and always worked from Sutton garage.
They were GHA 923 - 924 (2499 - 2500) in the fleet numbering of 1944.
I have read that one was originally destined for BCT, but I have not seen conformation.
1567594882483.png
 
Lloyd said:
Midland Red had a similar approach with 'end of life' vehicles, in the 1970s it was £50 not counting parts in the depot's stores, or they would be delicenced and join the 'scrap line'.
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Small amount given the nature of the beast fairly easy threshold to cross I wonder if some of the repair estimates would have been a little inflated, loose a old bus get a new or newer replacement.
 
What kind of money did these old bus go for as scrap ?
I can see where the mechanical could be sold on to trucking companies but as for the coach work was there a after life ?
It's clear the operating body gave vary little value to these older buses with a 500 pound and less figure for thumbs up or down
 
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Even today, scrap buses are only worth about £1000 at the most - often much less. Engines etc have a small resale value, but with the quality of today's products there isn't much demand - a modern commercial diesel can do half a million miles without major overhaul, if maintained correctly. Also the cost of labour getting them out, while most scrap is chopped, crushed or bundled mechanically. As far as the bus co. is concerned, they want them out of the way as quickly as possible to make room for newer vehicles.
 
Lloyd said:
Even today, scrap buses are only worth about £1000 at the most - often much less. Engines etc have a small resale value, but with the quality of today's products there isn't much demand - a modern commercial diesel can do half a million miles without major overhaul, if maintained correctly. Also the cost of labour getting them out, while most scrap is chopped, crushed or bundled mechanically. As far as the bus co. is concerned, they want them out of the way as quickly as possible to make room for newer vehicles.
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Not knowing at lot about the specifics about the mechanicals of a bus but I would have thought the trans and axle gearing would be way different to other commercial vehicles just from the start stop operation of the daily grind (forgive the pun).
 
Robert Ensor (bob) said:
This part of the buses I really find interesting not just the maintenance part but the whole thing, I feel we are missing a real part of bus history, sure the buses them selves are the star of the show, but who printed the tickets and were they a Birmingham firm how many tickets were clipped each week keeping in mind the life of a ticket may have been 2 stops
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tickets.jpg
These tickets are all labelled Bell Punch Co. Ltd. London, as are some later ones from WM Transport. According to Graces Guide Bell Punch made the ticket machines and had their own paper mill, Isaac Warwick & Co.
(My childhood memory is that the gummed brown paper that joined rolls together was stamped 'Moose'. Did that mean that there were other suppliers or is there another explanation?)
 
Radiorails said:
Yep, the conductor was cuter than you. :laughing:
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The best method was to sit in the single seat at the top of the stairs and just look unconcerned as the conductor walked past. The upstairs seats besides the stair could sometimes work as well. If the conductor didn't collect the fare that wasn't my problem! Offering up a used ticket sounds pretty risky as the fare stage shown would most likely be completely wrong. If an inspector came on board I presume they picked up the 'slate' that was housed underneath the stairs and wouldn't that show the serial numbers in use?
 
Spargone said:
The best method was to sit in the single seat at the top of the stairs and just look unconcerned as the conductor walked past. The upstairs seats besides the stair could sometimes work as well. If the conductor didn't collect the fare that wasn't my problem! Offering up a used ticket sounds pretty risky as the fare stage shown would most likely be completely wrong. If an inspector came on board I presume they picked up the 'slate' that was housed underneath the stairs and wouldn't that show the serial numbers in use?
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I believe the 'slate' was called a waybill.
 
Spargone said:
The best method was to sit in the single seat at the top of the stairs and just look unconcerned as the conductor walked past. The upstairs seats besides the stair could sometimes work as well. If the conductor didn't collect the fare that wasn't my problem! Offering up a used ticket sounds pretty risky as the fare stage shown would most likely be completely wrong. If an inspector came on board I presume they picked up the 'slate' that was housed underneath the stairs and wouldn't that show the serial numbers in use?
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I need to get out more I had completely forgotten about the single seat
 
Lloyd said:
Even today, scrap buses are only worth about £1000 at the most - often much less. Engines etc have a small resale value, but with the quality of today's products there isn't much demand - a modern commercial diesel can do half a million miles without major overhaul, if maintained correctly. Also the cost of labour getting them out, while most scrap is chopped, crushed or bundled mechanically. As far as the bus co. is concerned, they want them out of the way as quickly as possible to make room for newer vehicles.
Click to expand...
The internet has a completely different value of buses, I have spent some time rooting around, as I intend to own a old bus
 
Robert Ensor (bob) said:
The internet has a completely different value of buses, I have spent some time rooting around, as I intend to own a old bus
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There is often a big difference between what sellers think they are worth, and the price that is paid. Owning one is easy - affording to accommodate it, maintain & restore it, and run it is a far more expensive matter, I can tell you from personal experience.
 
Spargone said:
These tickets are all labelled Bell Punch Co. Ltd. London, as are some later ones from WM Transport. According to Graces Guide Bell Punch made the ticket machines and had their own paper mill, Isaac Warwick & Co.
(My childhood memory is that the gummed brown paper that joined rolls together was stamped 'Moose'. Did that mean that there were other suppliers or is there another explanation?)
Click to expand...

I wondered about thay for years, then found out the gummed 'joiners' were made by the Moose Glue Co, somewhere in Canada I think. (Glue can be made from boiled Moose hides).
 
Lloyd said:
There is often a big difference between what sellers think they are worth, and the price that is paid. Owning one is easy - affording to accommodate it, maintain & restore it, and run it is a far more expensive matter, I can tell you from personal experience.
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well I got to the buy a old bus idea a little late, it would appear the old buses have become a real collector prize, somewhat like old cars, a English friend bought a car for 25,000 back in the day the first time I got my hands on one in 84 the value had gone to 1 million, the second encounter 10 years later same model different car14 million, now the last time one traded 70 million plus.
we older guys now have money to buy a little of our child hood, which is good for the old buses it means there are people willing to spend and keep these older buses around along with people who will devout their own time to help.
what becomes the question will a 30-40 years old today see the beauty in these buses, because if they do not the price will collapse and wythall would go.
 
Spargone said:
View attachment 137146
These tickets are all labelled Bell Punch Co. Ltd. London, as are some later ones from WM Transport. According to Graces Guide Bell Punch made the ticket machines and had their own paper mill, Isaac Warwick & Co.
(My childhood memory is that the gummed brown paper that joined rolls together was stamped 'Moose'. Did that mean that there were other suppliers or is there another explanation?)
Click to expand...
Seeing those bus tickets reminded me of an encounter with a ticket inspector back in the 1940s. My cousin and me decided to go to Sutton Park for the day. She was 9 and I was 8 and we got on a 107 Midland Red in Perry Barr. The tickets back then were larger and the conductress pulled them from clips on a rack and clipped a hole in them. For some daft reason I ripped my ticket into lots of tiny little bits !

At New Oscott a ticket inspector got on and was not pleased when he saw what I had done. He made me fit the bits back together on the seat like a jigsaw puzzle otherwise he would put me off the bus. I managed to do this so stayed on and got to Sutton.

We had a nice day but Park Rangers stopped us several times to check our entry tickets as proof we had paid to get in.
 
ragga said:
One of many Grave visiting Bus Stops:(
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Looks as if it has just come out of repaint, it is so clean, one of the half of the Leyland contract garaged at Wellhead Lane and a regular on the 5,7,11 and 33 routes. Photo is at the time when advertising had come in but the fleet number was still in gold on the body just behind the back of the front mudguard, later on of course it moved into the yellow band beneath the front window and was in black. Looks to be a hot summer day as all the windows are open, although the downstairs (or lower saloon) are hard to see and the driver is in his fawn (summer) jacket. However it is an excellent picture and shows a BCT bus at its best. Thanks for posting it.

Bob
 
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