Birmingham buses

[Radiorails]

LRW 377 (99) was , as reported in Bob's post (1680), a Daimler Freeline with Gardner engine. It has 20 seats and provision for another 30 standing. This type of bus were not popular Birmingham and many other places that tried them. It had a body built by Duple and went into service in 1951, it was the second Freeline built and was based on Edinburgh specifications.
It was loaned to BCT from 29 March, 1952 until 29th. May, 1952 so stayed quite briefly. Most passengers at peak time, it seems, were shoppers, probably due to the circuitous route taken by the 28A rather than workers. The usual double deck bus seated 54, at the time, so most people got a seat even when the bus has some standing passengers.
RW was a Coventry registration.

 

[Bob Davis]

LRW 377 (99) was , as reported in Bob's post (1680), a Daimler Freeline with Gardner engine. It has 20 seats and provision for another 30 standing. This type of bus were not popular Birmingham and many other places that tried them. It had a body built by Duple and went into service in 1951, it was the second Freeline built and was based on Edinburgh specifications.
It was loaned to BCT from 29 March, 1952 until 29th. May, 1952 so stayed quite briefly. Most passengers at peak time, it seems, were shoppers, probably due to the circuitous route taken by the 28A rather than workers. The usual double deck bus seated 54, at the time, so most people got a seat even when the bus has some standing passengers.
RW was a Coventry registration.

Thank you Alan I knew you would come up trumps

Bob

 

[Lloyd]

When fairly new Midland Red apparently hired some of these PS2's for their private hire work and they could be seen in London, Blackpool and Birmingham-on-Sea. As this was at week-ends, when passenger use was low, it was possible.

This is an easily made mistake. Because of the agreement between BCT and BMMO (made in 1914), BCT could do hires outside of the city, but had to display "On hire to Midland Red" stickers on the front windows, and possibly pay something as well. Some of the one-man converted ones were hired to Potteries Motor Traction towards the end of their lives, as the latter company had an OMO vehicle shortage at the time.

2247 JOJ 247

 

[Lloyd]

LRW 377 (99) was , as reported in Bob's post (1680), a Daimler Freeline with Gardner engine. It has 20 seats and provision for another 30 standing. This type of bus were not popular Birmingham and many other places that tried them. It had a body built by Duple and went into service in 1951, it was the second Freeline built and was based on Edinburgh specifications.
It was loaned to BCT from 29 March, 1952 until 29th. May, 1952 so stayed quite briefly. Most passengers at peak time, it seems, were shoppers, probably due to the circuitous route taken by the 28A rather than workers. The usual double deck bus seated 54, at the time, so most people got a seat even when the bus has some standing passengers.
RW was a Coventry registration.

Yes, registered by Daimler. (Sorry it's a poor picture)

 

[Bob Davis]

Yes, registered by Daimler. (Sorry it's a poor picture)

View attachment 136836

Not a poor picture at all because it shows the rear door, now the question is, was it on this bus that the conductor sat at the rear door or was that a bus on the continent not Amsterdam trams, but somewhere a bus ran and you paid as you either got on or got of. The picture in my book was not at all clear over what was at the back I thought it had two doors but memory is a funny thing
Bob

 

[ellbrown]

This bus went past the Kings Heath Village Classic Car meet yesterday. Possibly from the Wythall Transport Museum.

 

[Radiorails]

The trees mask the top deck, but it has the look of an open topper. Not sure if Wythall has this bus.

 

[Radiorails]

This morning brought me the answer to Ell's post 1686.
Firstly it is not open top. Secondly the bus is now at Wythall. It is said to have been, numerically, the last of this type of bus.
Bus WDA 700T (West Midland 7000) which was with the Aston Transport Museum now belongs to Wythall, since early June this year. It is a Leyland Fleetline with MCW bodywork. The bus was new to Walsall in 1979 being withdrawn in 1997.
Apparently the bus has stood for around ten years and had to be towed from South Staffordshire to Wythall.
Fuller details can be had by purchasing, from Wythall, their September issue of "Omnibus", price only £1. (Members get it free of course ).
This link shows it in WMPTE service, I believe the bus looks much as in the lower three photos with the exception of the 37 year lettering between decks.

WMPTE 7000

 

[Bob Davis]

This morning brought me the answer to Ell's post 1686.
Firstly it is not open top. Secondly the bus is now at Wythall. It is said to have been, numerically, the last of this type of bus.
Bus WDA 700T (West Midland 7000) which was with the Aston Transport Museum now belongs to Wytall, since early June this year. It is a Leyland Fleetline with MCW bodywork. The bus was new to Walsall in 1979 being withdrawn in 1997.
Apparently the bus has stood for around ten years and had to be towed from South Staffordshire to Wythall.
Fuller details can be had by purchasing, from Wythall, their September issue of "Omnibus", price only £1. (Members get it free of course ).
This link shows it in WMPTE service, I believe the bus looks much as in the lower three photos with the exception of the 37 year lettering between decks.

WMPTE 7000

In picture three, what was the bus in front of 7000?
Bob

 

[Radiorails]

In picture three, what was the bus in front of 7000?
Bob

I am not sure Bob. It is in PTE days (second livery version?) but in BCT livery, probably without city crest. I never had interest in the PTE as it was outside of my time period. The route 27, in the photos is a PTE route and presumably arose after the markets were moved. The 27 route I knew was the single deck route from Kings Heath to West Heath.

 

[Bob Davis]

I am not sure Bob. It is in PTE days (second livery version?) but in BCT livery, probably without city crest. I never had interest in the PTE as it was outside of my time period. The route 27, in the photos is a PTE route and presumably arose after the markets were moved. The 27 route I knew was the single deck route from Kings Heath to West Heath.

The reason I asked was that the rear view looked very unBCT, yes 27 was always a single deck route to me. Anyway thanks for the reply, I had not thought of the fact that it was in PTE Colours, so it could have been from any of the constituent companies

Bob

 

[ellbrown]

It's not on the list on Wythall's website yet http://www.wythall.org.uk/wm.asp

This is my original photo cropped from this view of the Kings Heath Village Square Classic Car meet on Bank Holiday Monday.

 

[Radiorails]

But it is in their September magazine.

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

Please can a member contact me, I have questions related to restoration of a bus/buses.
I have always had a love of buses those early ones sitting down stairs looking out the front window.
Then the later bus when you had to go upstairs to sit up front to look out the window.
I see buses for sale in the States all the time and for many years have thought about buying one but most of the time they are in sad shape.
I am under no illusion about the under taking of a bus resto.

 

[Eric Gibson]

We have this company almost on our doorstep.
http://bus.uk.com/contact-us.html

 

[Radiorails]

Please can a member contact me, I have questions related to restoration of a bus/buses.
I have always had a love of buses those early ones sitting down stairs looking out the front window.
Then the later bus when you had to go upstairs to sit up front to look out the window.
I see buses for sale in the States all the time and for many years have thought about buying one but most of the time they are in sad shape.
I am under no illusion about the under taking of a bus resto.

You might find some good information and advice in this magazine:

British Buses Abroad Magazine – Buses Worldwide

busesworldwide.org

 

[Radiorails]

Bob Ensor raised a recent post about adverts on BCT buses. For some inexplicable reason I cannot post on that thread, despite many attempts.
However my reply post is here.
Trams from their early days carried adverts, although there are many photos showing them without them. Probably after repaints. BCT's buses managed to avoid adverts on their buses until times got hard in 1953. A few buses were so treated and them more.
The placing of them was restrained - maybe later they increased in number - they were usually between decks and below the rear platform window on the rear loading buses. Not too familiar with the front entrance buses. One noticeable thing when ads were on the rear panel was that the former large fleet number was much smaller to accommodate the advert. The only exception to this, as far as I recall, was during and for a couple of years after WW2. National Savings and other patriotic adverts were placed on tram and bus sides.
I believe it was a similar sort of timescale for Midland Red.

 

[Bob Davis]

Bob Ensor raised a recent post about adverts on BCT buses. For some inexplicable reason I cannot post on that thread, despite many attempts.
However my reply post is here.
Trams from their early days carried adverts, although there are many photos showing them without them. Probably after repaints. BCT's buses managed to avoid adverts on their buses until times got hard in 1953. A few buses were so treated and them more.
The placing of them was restrained - maybe later they increased in number - they were usually between decks and below the read platform window on the rear loading buses. Not too familiar with the front entrance buses. One noticeable thing when ads were on the rear panel was that the former large fleet number was much smaller to accommodate the advert. The only exception to this, as far as I recall, was during and for a couple of years after WW2. National Savings and other patriotic adverts were placed on tram and bus sides.
I believe it was a similar sort of timescale for Midland Red.

Thanks for dating it for me. I do remember the furore it caused.
Bob

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

Probably this one
View attachment 136676

This bus looks right at home, what a thrill riding along the sea front
I must admit I am in love with this bus, it presents it self so we'll, excellent work in the restoration,. can't wait to see it in person with all the others at wythall.

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

You bus guys please forgive me l have so many questions
I stayed up last night reading this whole thread made it to page 80 had to throw in the towel at 2.30.
I love the look of those Tigers never have been on one and I am sure the ride maybe no where near today's standard but for me that's part of the fun, if I wanted a/c heat and a synro transmission I would get on a new bus.
I had no idea all the different makes and all the subtle differences.
I am amazed at the depth of knowledge shown here and the PASSION.
I had not realized how many people started saving buses all those years ago and how many have given their time to restore them, and help to educat those of us that took the bus for granted.
Watching those time period shows on TV I really enjoy seeing the old bus show up in the village and Miss Marple alight, untill starting to delve in to the bus culture I had no clue as to how many old buses where out there and still road Worthy.

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

My memories start with the open rear platform and swing round the bar waiting for the bus to stop trying not to get a clip round the ear from the clippy.
Waiting at the bus stop and looking up at the top deck to see if a front seat was open or you and your mates looking to take over the back seat.
Getting on the bus in Bournville going back to Rednal after sailing my model yacht and hoping there was not a pram under the stairs so I could stow my yacht
I had forgotten about the match strikers on the back of the seats.
That rear open platform wow, one time I was standing waiting for the bus to stop a Edgewood road and the Lickey road right at the entrance to Coften Park, and Roger/Robert ? Podmore threw a conker still in the Shell at the bus and hit me in the face I chased that little bugger as soon as I got of that bus he ran all the way home, never caught him did not see him for a long long time after that he gave me a wide berth

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

So some questions
What was/ the average service life of a bus I am sure the modern bus has a longer service life
Is there a cap on miles traveled how is the decision made on its time to retire a bus, of course not taking in to account of wrecks and fires or acts of God.
How much maintenance was performed at the bus garage besides the wash and wax.
If a bus needs major work such as a engine or trans would these just have a exchange unit installed or are they repaird in house.
Is all the coach work performed at one facility
I am sure most panels are some sort of composite are there spares in stock or do they fabricate their replacements.
How many buses are in service every day and how many are on hand that are operable and what percentage are down for service and repair.
A question for a driver how on Earth could you see down the sides most of those mirrors look so small.
Being a driver these days must be like a busker drive the bus watch people getting on and off, watch the people on the bus while you drive, o and remember to smile

I am sure over the last few years the fleet has become some what standardized and become easier to maintain.

I am curious on how the fleet was serviced with so may varying engine, trans, and coach body's.

The logistics must have been a nightmare back in the day, there must have been some guys with real knowledge, as computing was not a option
This may seem strange that I want to know how the sausage was made rather than see it on the street rolling up to a bus stop.

All this goes back to the core of the trade I learnt in Birmingham and the guys who took the time to teach me and put up with a smart mouth when I was younger and knew it all.

One more question for the guys involved in saving these treasures has the resto mod started to happen for buses, all late model mechanical under a vintage body.

 

[ellbrown]

Modern buses seem to get replaced maybe every 3 to 5 years. National Express West Midlands keeps upgrading their fleet with modern new buses. In the last year we have had loads of new grey Platinum buses introduced on many of the major routes. With free WiFi and USB slots. CCTV cameras and screens on both decks. Audio annoucements with text on the screen. "The next stop is Park Street".

 

[nickcc101]

Bus fleets in the major cities are passed down to towns and cities elsewhere in the country. For example, in Cornwall we were operating many vehicles that were well over 20 years old. No reason to dispose of serviceable vehicles if they can still be operated at a profit. What forced change a few years ago was the requirement for all service vehicles to be low floor with wheelchair access, this resulted in many older vehicles being scrapped or transferred to School/College only services.

 

[mikejee]

Also the government seems to be encouraging (often with grants) the introduction of more carbon-neutral vehicles, though the older ones will probably often still be passed down as Nickcc says. Or they may even be modified, as has occurred here in Reading, where some years ago a number of hybrid diesel-electric buses were introduced (a small diesel engine running continuously and charging the battery, which then runs the bus) but there were some breakdown problems and now, years later some have been modified to be all-electric, this apparently (from visual inspection) involving the replacement of the back end of the bus

 

[DavidGrain]

In the past week I have read conflicting reports on the life expectancy of London's buses. One report I read last week said seven years after which they would be sold on. The other said 15 years but this might be relevant just to the so-called 'Borismasters' which are not now expected that there will be a second hand market as no bus operator wants to buy them.

This early replacement policy explains why we in the West Midlands had a fleet of ex London Metro buses some years ago. If you remember the buses with the centre exit door which were later blocked off and additional seats added because of fare evasion via the second door.

 

[Villian64]

currently building 1910 omnibus in corporation colours

 

[Radiorails]

The ages of buses in service is very open ended. Birmingham City was around 10 -12 years for their new vehicles, however for various reasons some lasted slightly less and others longer but some, such as the utility WW2 deliveries lasted far less and were sold on. Many of the cities buses did find new owners - they had a good reputation in the trade as they had been well maintained. These stayed with new owners, some abroad, for quite a few years. Older buses were usually only used a peak hours, so did get a lease of life. Some pre-war buses, in the city, when BCT took over a couple of Midland Red routes were refurbished and were given a short lease of life. Midland Red were similar. Some routes of both BCT and Midland Red took a high toll on their use as they were generally used on very hilly or well used routes. The Inner Circle 8 was one such route. Light maintenance would be done at the local garage, whereas heavy overhauls were done at specific facilities.
Regarding mirrors, most large vehicles in the past had small mirrors; it was all a matter of expertise.
Sausages on the road? How about this Wienermobile?

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

In the past week I have read conflicting reports on the life expectancy of London's buses. One report I read last week said seven years after which they would be sold on. The other said 15 years but this might be relevant just to the so-called 'Borismasters' which are not now expected that there will be a second hand market as no bus operator wants to buy them.

This early replacement policy explains why we in the West Midlands had a fleet of ex London Metro buses some years ago. If you remember the buses with the centre exit door which were later blocked off and additional seats added because of fare evasion via the second door.

15 years seems more likely as a turn over number, I am sure by then they have very little value on the books and can no longer receive any tax credits ?

 

[Robert Ensor (bob)]

Lots to ponder on, firstly how did England manage to build and deliver buses during WW2.
Thinking back you never really saw to many buses broken down it fact I would go as far to say it was rare.
A true testament to the Birmingham bus system keeping a fleet alive is no easy undertaking with a high percentage of different configured variations.
Birmingham most definitely was and still is one of the best bus systems and for me the best looking, you see that blue and cream on a sunny day warms your heart they just look so good.
So from what I have read many other operater's would often look to buy livery from Birmingham because of their excellent service and care.
I wonder how many buses are running around the world that started life in Birmingham I would think it's a high number as the fleet was so big and variable, some of those single Decker's must have spread all over England to all four corners
Growing up I never gave a thought to the back end of the business of what it took for that bus to come along the Bristol road I would pass the garage in Selly Oak on the way home from work and never give it a second thought that a whole huge network was involved to make the system work, BCT must have been one of the largest employers in Birmingham.