BrummieGeoff
Sparkhill Lad
Viv : I think the surname is Gottwaltz .... but it's not a common Brummie name and it has been misinterpreted (by me and others).
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- Thread starter postie
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It appears to be derived from a German name.
Postmaster was named as "Gottwaltz " in 1797.
Been trying to get a better sense of how the section of the 1814 view (post #351) showing the Post Office on New Street compares today. I think this is how it compares. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.
I think today, Grosvenor House occupies the site at #56 and #57, formerly the location of the old Post Office. The 1950s Grosvenor House is Grade II listed.
I think today, Grosvenor House occupies the site at #56 and #57, formerly the location of the old Post Office. The 1950s Grosvenor House is Grade II listed.
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Richard Dye
master brummie
These are great photos Viv!
BrummieGeoff
Sparkhill Lad
I've been doing something similar Viv.
I think this updated image shows the street numbering from an 1849 directory, and also where Bennett's Hill and Christchurch Passage were cut.
By that date the Panorama site had been taken over by the "Society of Arts & Government School of Design".
I wonder if the "scaffolding" shown on the left edge of the picture is from the construction of Christ Church ? .... according to Wikipedia, construction finished in 1816.
Happy to be corrected if I've misinterpreted.
I think this updated image shows the street numbering from an 1849 directory, and also where Bennett's Hill and Christchurch Passage were cut.
By that date the Panorama site had been taken over by the "Society of Arts & Government School of Design".
I wonder if the "scaffolding" shown on the left edge of the picture is from the construction of Christ Church ? .... according to Wikipedia, construction finished in 1816.
Happy to be corrected if I've misinterpreted.
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By 1829 Miss Gottwaltz was coming in for criticism regarding her efficiency. Looks like discrimination was at play to some extent.
In The Directory of Birmingham 1835, the Post Office is being listed as Bennetts Hill, obviously because of occupying the corner with New Street.
Source: British Newspaper Archive
In The Directory of Birmingham 1835, the Post Office is being listed as Bennetts Hill, obviously because of occupying the corner with New Street.
Source: British Newspaper Archive
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Further developing Geoff's labelling in post #542. Was this the site of #53 ? It's next to the mail coach gateway. #53 New Street was a house occupied by Mr C.Grafton (or Graston ?) in 1813. (This building was labelled as Dore Boot & Shoe Maker on the 1814 sketch in post #531 ).
A little tricky to be precise here as I'm unsure how much of the mail coach gateway (and possibly building(s)?) would have disappeared to make way for Bennetts Hill.
A little tricky to be precise here as I'm unsure how much of the mail coach gateway (and possibly building(s)?) would have disappeared to make way for Bennetts Hill.
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BrummieGeoff
Sparkhill Lad
It's very difficult to be sure Viv.
Wrightson's 1823 Triennial Directory of Birmingham shows Samuel Dore - Boot & Shoe Maker - at #54 New Street .... so #53 may be the building annotated as "Sheldon Metal Warehouse" in the 1814 sketch.
However, the street numbering appears to have changed by the 1839 edition of that directory when the Post Office is at #54.
I'm also conscious that the notes on the bottom of the 1814 sketch could have been added at a later date, so might not accurately reflect all the occupants in 1814.
So far, I haven't been able to identify the appropriate Judd and Sheldon occupants, but ....
Wrightson's 1818 Triennial Directory of Birmingham lists Samuel Dore - Boot & Shoe Maker; John Newbold - Plumber & Glazier; J H Parker - Panorama; Miss Gottwaltz - Postmistress.
Wrightson's 1823 Triennial Directory of Birmingham also lists John Newbold - Plumber, Glazier & Painter - at #46 New Street.
And James Campbell - Manufacturer and Dealer in Derbyshire Spars - is listed in the 1830 Directory in Temple Street.
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Re the Judd family (William the father and his two sons William and Richard). They were carriers and wharfingers with their own boats and waggons. The New Street address was presumably part of the much wider business. When it was sold in March 1814, the Wagon Warehouse was sold along with a dwelling house (probably adjoining on New Street as no other address was mentioned).
By 1814 they'd been declared bankrupt, but in their time they seem to have had quite a large operation beyond Birmingham. Sounds like they had their own wharf in Birmingham too.
Some news cuttings, may be of interest. Source: British Newspaper Archive
By 1814 they'd been declared bankrupt, but in their time they seem to have had quite a large operation beyond Birmingham. Sounds like they had their own wharf in Birmingham too.
Some news cuttings, may be of interest. Source: British Newspaper Archive
Attachments
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Just for info, and a building that was probably in the 1814 view, is #58. Below is a to let notice from 1814 of "a convenient house and shop". So perhaps a domestic building with a shop front onto New Street ?
Source: British Newspaper Archive
Source: British Newspaper Archive
This sounds like Mr (James) Campbell moved further along New Street (opposite Cannon Street) but decided to return to his old position by the Panorama in 1816. No mention of 'spurs'.
Source: British Newspaper Archive
Source: British Newspaper Archive
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BrummieGeoff
Sparkhill Lad
Good find Viv .... I'm not surprised that James wanted to get rid of that lot before moving!
There is a thread on the post office at https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/threads/new-street-post-offices-until-1873.53903/#post-737595
Two extracts from memories in 1817 recorded in press cutting post #363 on this thread (for full article)
https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/threads/new-street-city-centre-birmingham.38783
More questions:
Could this be Mr Campbell noted on the 1814 drawing ?
Mr Dore was a cobbler according to the second extract, occupying a cottage similar to a lodge. Could the 'garden wall' be the one longside the mail coach gateway ?
https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/threads/new-street-city-centre-birmingham.38783
More questions:
Could this be Mr Campbell noted on the 1814 drawing ?
Mr Dore was a cobbler according to the second extract, occupying a cottage similar to a lodge. Could the 'garden wall' be the one longside the mail coach gateway ?
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Another cutting with recollections of the section of New Street portrayed in the 1814 drawing. This time it refers to a panoramic map painted 105 years earlier - so 1807.
The Panorama's purpose is explained - trade exhibitions and art displays of local artists.
It also confirms Campbell was next door housing his spar ornaments. Had to look up what this was. (Some info:
Spar ornaments - decorative objects made from minerals, popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. created by miners and craftsmen who carved shiny, smooth crystals into shapes. Most were broken up for their mineral value, so now rare. Blue John is a semi-precious stone – a fluorite, or fluorspar – with blue, yellow and purple banding only found in a few of mines in the Castleton area, Derbyshire)
The Hay and Straw warehouse is also mentioned, doubtless in this position to support the fly waggon/coach horses and mail coach horses.
The Post Office is described as a 'pretty white house'. It had an adjoining coach house, which seems to be shown in the drawing in post #544. Must have been demolished between 1807 and 1814 as it isn't included in the 1814 view.
Dore's was a boot and shoe shop, undoubtedly also a cobblers.
Sheldon's metal warehouse is confirmed but nothing else is said about it.
Additionally a pawnbrokers (Aaron's and ... ?) is mentioned.
Source: British Newspaper Archive
The Panorama's purpose is explained - trade exhibitions and art displays of local artists.
It also confirms Campbell was next door housing his spar ornaments. Had to look up what this was. (Some info:
Spar ornaments - decorative objects made from minerals, popular in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. created by miners and craftsmen who carved shiny, smooth crystals into shapes. Most were broken up for their mineral value, so now rare. Blue John is a semi-precious stone – a fluorite, or fluorspar – with blue, yellow and purple banding only found in a few of mines in the Castleton area, Derbyshire)
The Hay and Straw warehouse is also mentioned, doubtless in this position to support the fly waggon/coach horses and mail coach horses.
The Post Office is described as a 'pretty white house'. It had an adjoining coach house, which seems to be shown in the drawing in post #544. Must have been demolished between 1807 and 1814 as it isn't included in the 1814 view.
Dore's was a boot and shoe shop, undoubtedly also a cobblers.
Sheldon's metal warehouse is confirmed but nothing else is said about it.
Additionally a pawnbrokers (Aaron's and ... ?) is mentioned.
Source: British Newspaper Archive
Abraham Aaron's and Lem Flersheim's business was on the corner of Temple Street. The premises with a rear warehouse were up for sale in 1809, so presumably their names were not indicated on the 1814 drawing (and as the writing is unclear for this building, it's hard to tell who were new occupants ). Aaron was putting unredeemed pledges through auction from at least 1802.
Source: British Newspaper Archive
Source: British Newspaper Archive
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BrummieGeoff
Sparkhill Lad
Excellent work Viv.
It looks as though there is another old "panoramic map" view of this part of New Street that we haven't yet found. At first I thought it might be referring to the same sketch, but there are some significant differences in the description (one-storeyed Post Office and adjoining coach-house) so even allowing for mis-reporting that seems unlikely.
You've solved the outstanding question of the building at the bottom of Temple Street .... the sketch extract below clearly shows the "3 balls" sign indicating a pawnbroker, and the text is close enough to "Abraham Aaron & Lem Flersheim" to tie it in with your 1809 newspaper cutting (maybe it was still a pawnbroker's shop in 1814 and Miriam Aaron replaced Abraham??). The 1815 Wrightson's Triennial Directory of Birmingham lists Aaron & Flersheim as Pawnbrokers in New Street.
Other views of the Post Office (examples below, one dated 1824) do show a building attached to the Post office, that could be a coach-house.
It's difficult to reconcile the different descriptions and dates .... it may be that the reported dates for the pictures are not all accurate, or some of the pictures are copies of earlier works with artistic "tweaks"??
It looks as though there is another old "panoramic map" view of this part of New Street that we haven't yet found. At first I thought it might be referring to the same sketch, but there are some significant differences in the description (one-storeyed Post Office and adjoining coach-house) so even allowing for mis-reporting that seems unlikely.
You've solved the outstanding question of the building at the bottom of Temple Street .... the sketch extract below clearly shows the "3 balls" sign indicating a pawnbroker, and the text is close enough to "Abraham Aaron & Lem Flersheim" to tie it in with your 1809 newspaper cutting (maybe it was still a pawnbroker's shop in 1814 and Miriam Aaron replaced Abraham??). The 1815 Wrightson's Triennial Directory of Birmingham lists Aaron & Flersheim as Pawnbrokers in New Street.
Other views of the Post Office (examples below, one dated 1824) do show a building attached to the Post office, that could be a coach-house.
It's difficult to reconcile the different descriptions and dates .... it may be that the reported dates for the pictures are not all accurate, or some of the pictures are copies of earlier works with artistic "tweaks"??
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BrummieGeoff
Sparkhill Lad
Viv : I assume that these extracts have come from the book mentioned by Pedrocut in Post #100 .... "Recollections of New Street, Birmingham in 1817" by Mrs Lucy Benton (1877)? Do you know if any more of it appears online.
Probably were sources from that book Geoff. I've looked again in the newspapers at that extract and at the bottom it says "To be continued'. Shall have a look at later Birmingham Weekly Post editions to see if there were more.
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This is all I could find, which mostly deals with earlier history and New Street towards the High Street end.
Have gathered together some info from newspapers about the occupants of New Street dating from the 1740s to the 1790s. These are a mixture of residents and businesses. An interesting mix of activities from peruke (wig) makers to manufacturers of army supplies. Not many used street numbers for their addresses, but some are included where known.
1742 Mr Butler, Printer
1742 Kings Head Tavern/Inn until at least 1782. Mrs Soule left the business after her husband death 1769
1742 Wheat Sheaf from at least 1742 to at least 1772 (in 1772 it was Henry Read's)
1744 Mr Beckett, gives lectures
1746 Thomas Fisher attorney at law, until at least 1747
1746 James Collins, architect opposite the Free School
1747 Queens Head
1748 John Barber had a vault near the Fountain Inn
1748 William Griffin, barber and peruke (wig) maker at the sign of The Wig and Griffin, against the Free School
1749 Martha Twamley, milliner was closing down
1749 John Ellar/Eller at the French Horn and in 1750
1753 Thomas Steward, attorney until at least 1754
1755 Mr Harris, gunsmith
1757 John Walford, stay makers taken over by Elizabeth Walford, widow
1758 Thomas Gisborne
1760 Mr Shaw, ironmongery hardware
1762 Richard Ingram peruke maker and hair cutter
1763 Mr Saul, builder
1766 John Ward's house
1768 Mrs Butler's (books?)
1769 Fountain Inn, Thomas Crocket from about 1769 - 1797 in 1797 Mrs Crocket was running the Inn
1777 Silk warehouse at #8 New Street
1771 Charles Steward's commodious warehouse sale, attorney Mr Steward
1773 Thomas Phipson, caster at #61 New Street
1774 Richard Rogers, tailor
1775 John Kettle
1775 Bristol Copper warehouse at #21 New Street
1776 Francis Hurrd drapery and mercer at #13, opposite Free School until at least 1777
1777 William Holden
1779 Sarah Rogers, tailor and habit maker, #7 New Street
1779 Misses Spyers and Co and Messrs Ryland and Darby, sale of genteel house, warehouse, stable and appurtanences
1785 Mr Medlam, butcher
1786 ShakespeareTavern until at least 1797
1787 William Worton
1790 Farror and Goode at #11 New Street
1791 Mr Gem, attorney until at least 1796
1791 Mr Tankard
1791 Micheal Woodward organ builder and musical instrument maker, music warehouse until at least 1795
1792 T Bentley and Brown Wholesale paper warehouse #67 New Street
1792 Mrs Audley (deceased) #53 New Street, taken over by T Bentley above
1792 - 1796 John Burton glazier and painter
1793 William Fox
1793 - 1798 John Green, druggist and greengrocer
1793 Mr T Pain, light manufacturing
1793 William Allsop (deceased)
1794 William Russell, attorney, upper end of New Street until at least 1795
1794 Captain Hipkins at #20 New Street
1794 John Dallaway
1794 John Gill's house (deceased)
1795 Richard Bolton and James Luckcock partnership dissolved
1795 Mr J Wyatts woollen drapery warehouse. C.Shibal joined (Sept 1875) who was previously at #71 New Street
1795 John Brook, attorney at law
1795 Misses Smith, confectioners
1795 R B Cooper army accoutrements maker at #70
1795 A Jones and M Onion mantis and millinery at #31 New Street. By 1796 it was just A Jones
1796 Messrs Baumgartner and Hoofstetter warehouse
1796 Mr Bissett
1796 Crown Inn until at least 1799
1796 Swains Derby and North Country Waggons Warehouse. Thomas and Jane Swain deceased
1796 Joseph Palmer, brass founders and plater
1796 William Goode, auctioneer #11 New Street
1797 Robert Burton Cooper manufacturing army accoutrements
1797 Mr Harris, draper at #18 New Street
1797 Messrs Barker and Wyatt
1797 Crown Inn Joseph Grey
1797 Blythe and Rauns wine vaults
1799 Edward Smith, notary and general agent
1742 Mr Butler, Printer
1742 Kings Head Tavern/Inn until at least 1782. Mrs Soule left the business after her husband death 1769
1742 Wheat Sheaf from at least 1742 to at least 1772 (in 1772 it was Henry Read's)
1744 Mr Beckett, gives lectures
1746 Thomas Fisher attorney at law, until at least 1747
1746 James Collins, architect opposite the Free School
1747 Queens Head
1748 John Barber had a vault near the Fountain Inn
1748 William Griffin, barber and peruke (wig) maker at the sign of The Wig and Griffin, against the Free School
1749 Martha Twamley, milliner was closing down
1749 John Ellar/Eller at the French Horn and in 1750
1753 Thomas Steward, attorney until at least 1754
1755 Mr Harris, gunsmith
1757 John Walford, stay makers taken over by Elizabeth Walford, widow
1758 Thomas Gisborne
1760 Mr Shaw, ironmongery hardware
1762 Richard Ingram peruke maker and hair cutter
1763 Mr Saul, builder
1766 John Ward's house
1768 Mrs Butler's (books?)
1769 Fountain Inn, Thomas Crocket from about 1769 - 1797 in 1797 Mrs Crocket was running the Inn
1777 Silk warehouse at #8 New Street
1771 Charles Steward's commodious warehouse sale, attorney Mr Steward
1773 Thomas Phipson, caster at #61 New Street
1774 Richard Rogers, tailor
1775 John Kettle
1775 Bristol Copper warehouse at #21 New Street
1776 Francis Hurrd drapery and mercer at #13, opposite Free School until at least 1777
1777 William Holden
1779 Sarah Rogers, tailor and habit maker, #7 New Street
1779 Misses Spyers and Co and Messrs Ryland and Darby, sale of genteel house, warehouse, stable and appurtanences
1785 Mr Medlam, butcher
1786 ShakespeareTavern until at least 1797
1787 William Worton
1790 Farror and Goode at #11 New Street
1791 Mr Gem, attorney until at least 1796
1791 Mr Tankard
1791 Micheal Woodward organ builder and musical instrument maker, music warehouse until at least 1795
1792 T Bentley and Brown Wholesale paper warehouse #67 New Street
1792 Mrs Audley (deceased) #53 New Street, taken over by T Bentley above
1792 - 1796 John Burton glazier and painter
1793 William Fox
1793 - 1798 John Green, druggist and greengrocer
1793 Mr T Pain, light manufacturing
1793 William Allsop (deceased)
1794 William Russell, attorney, upper end of New Street until at least 1795
1794 Captain Hipkins at #20 New Street
1794 John Dallaway
1794 John Gill's house (deceased)
1795 Richard Bolton and James Luckcock partnership dissolved
1795 Mr J Wyatts woollen drapery warehouse. C.Shibal joined (Sept 1875) who was previously at #71 New Street
1795 John Brook, attorney at law
1795 Misses Smith, confectioners
1795 R B Cooper army accoutrements maker at #70
1795 A Jones and M Onion mantis and millinery at #31 New Street. By 1796 it was just A Jones
1796 Messrs Baumgartner and Hoofstetter warehouse
1796 Mr Bissett
1796 Crown Inn until at least 1799
1796 Swains Derby and North Country Waggons Warehouse. Thomas and Jane Swain deceased
1796 Joseph Palmer, brass founders and plater
1796 William Goode, auctioneer #11 New Street
1797 Robert Burton Cooper manufacturing army accoutrements
1797 Mr Harris, draper at #18 New Street
1797 Messrs Barker and Wyatt
1797 Crown Inn Joseph Grey
1797 Blythe and Rauns wine vaults
1799 Edward Smith, notary and general agent
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Wig maker !
BrummieGeoff
Sparkhill Lad
Another interesting sketch of early New Street shops in Post #557 Viv. Looking at the directories this appears to be a view of the north side of the street with the Cannon Street junction on at the left. The 1849 and 1855 directories show the addresses of the buildings to be No. 40A "Engineers' Masonic & Universal Mutual Life Assurance Society" on the corner on the left .... down to No. 38 "Birmingham Journal & Commercial Advertiser Office and Henry Jowett, Tailor & Draper on the right.
Here's another sketch of the same site - focussing on No's 40 and 39 - dated c1865.
Here's another sketch of the same site - focussing on No's 40 and 39 - dated c1865.
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BrummieGeoff
Sparkhill Lad
The house of Dr Freer at 41 New Street painted by Samuel Rostill Lines .... on the west corner of the Cannon Street junction. Listed in the 1823 Wrightson's Triennial Directory of Birmingham.
We could probably make a complete street scene of early New Street from all the available paintings and sketches.
We could probably make a complete street scene of early New Street from all the available paintings and sketches.
On the left, Glass lift (shaft) at 102 New St, entrance next to Boots (Hidden by Phone Boxes)New Street in the rain today. Close to Bella Italia, Boots and Ask Italian. Just beyond the Piccadilly Arcade and Bennetts Hill towards the Town Hall and Victoria Square.
The glass lift is an addition to the old Woolworth Building. Is this the ghost of the red Woolworth sign ? Or am I imagining it ?
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I'm wondering if the building behind the frontages of #39 -#40 (Underhill's and Cornishes) was once a late medieval or early tudor house ? (New Street was first recorded in 1397 and may be even earlier). I think it's mentioned in the early history extract in post #557. (I found the description confusing).The shop frontages look like later additions to me and/or it was a house of some importance. If so, who owned it going further back in time - Richard Smallbroke or Guest are names mentioned in the article ? The buildings either side are obviously later structures and I think the windows of #39 and #40 may have been modernised, possibly during the 1700s/early 1800s. The 1860s sketch shows several insurance plaques on the wall, so by the time of that drawing, the building was most likely an increased fire risk.
Today's view shows a very attractive row of buildings.
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